Mom who shot kids, self denied food stamps

[Texashiker]

If you're goal is to help someone then you don't put up a nasty bureaucracy when they're in their darkest hour.

I do not know what the food stamp process is like in Texas, but surely its not "that" difficult.

Texas has been going through a lot of budget cuts lately. I do not know if this had anything to do with the ladies application getting approved or not.

If the lady truly needed help, then the system not only failed her, but failed her children.

But then again, if she could not take care of the children, then hand them over to a family member that could provide for them. Hand the kids over the the father, to the kids grandparents, aunts, uncles,,,, surely someone could have helped her.

 

[Infohawk]

But then again, if she could not take care of the children, then hand them over to a family member that could provide for them. Hand the kids over the the father, to the kids grandparents, aunts, uncles,,,, surely someone could have helped her.

I like how you seem to question whether she actually needed assistance but you take it for granted that she has relatives she's on good terms with. A lot of people have small families or have families that they are not on good terms with. This is especially common among homeless people and other people down on their luck.

 

[Texashiker]

I like how you seem to question whether she actually needed assistance

I do not know the whole story. Surely there was a reason why the lady was denied.

The state of Texas looks at numbers; the more people a program can sign up, the better. Due to this, there is some reason why the lady was denied. One state program in my area was cut 60% last year because the program was not signing up enough people.

but you take it for granted that she has relatives she's on good terms with.

If you can not depend on your family, then there are some serious issues there.

My ex-wife comes from a dysfunctional family, the sisters will not even talk to each other on the holidays. Everyone needs a support system, and the family should be part of that support system.

I just wish we had more of the story to work with.

 

[Infohawk]

If you can not depend on your family, then there are some serious issues there.

Exactly. These are people with issues. That's why we don't need to make it hard for them to get help. The vast majority of people who want public assistance really need it. Most healthy people with great family networks and zero mental problems find never need this assistance.

Ultimately, the specifics of this case aren't important. What's important is that statistically there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of Americans who need help. Treating them like their probably lying scumbags from the get-go (which seems to be your initial position) is not the right attitude to have. Cut out the illegals and the fraudsters with a robust national ID / database.

 

[nanette1985]

One thing I've found in dealing with social services is that the 18-page application (more in NJ) assumes that everything is "normal" and "average" in your situation, and requires extensive documentation if anything doesn't fit into their little boxes. For example, self-employment or more than one part-time job or seasonal/temporary employment is pretty much impossible to document well enough to be acceptable to the powers that be.

People who need assistance are the ones most likely to have an irregular or unpredictable situation - and those are the ones who get hassled the most by case workers.

Not blaming anyone, it's impossible to come up with a fair and efficient system. But I can completely understand why clients go insane trying to deal with the system, and why fraud is so common - the only clients who really understand it are ones who are cheating.

Sad story. At least the two poor children will be able to document exactly when and how their mother deceased Hopefully theyll recover.

 

[Infohawk]

One thing I've found in dealing with social services is that the 18-page application (more in NJ) assumes that everything is "normal" and "average" in your situation, and requires extensive documentation if anything doesn't fit into their little boxes. For example, self-employment or more than one part-time job or seasonal/temporary employment is pretty much impossible to document well enough to be acceptable to the powers that be.

People who need assistance are the ones most likely to have an irregular or unpredictable situation - and those are the ones who get hassled the most by case workers.

Exactly. It's not so much the length as the fact that for every page there is a bureaucratic nightmare waiting behind each question. That and the fact that the people who need assistance are the least capable of fighting these kinds of bureaucracies. Most normal people are driven up the wall by the DMV or the IRS. Imagine living out of a car and having to deal with these types of organizations to feed your child.

Not blaming anyone, it's impossible to come up with a fair and efficient system.

Yeah, but it's possible to have a vastly better system than we have now. Again, a properly cross-referenced database could quickly identify many types of fraud and intelligibilities.

 

[SilthDraeth]

I won't be shy. Due to car accident, and other injuries, including workmans comp saying I wasn't injured at work, I am currently disabled, and had to apply for food benefits and state medical care for me, and my two children... Now granted in the last 10 years, I have only been out of work a total of about 1 year... And hopefully after back surgery I can recover and get back to work...

Anyways, in Arizona, the application for food benefits and medical is about 4-6 pages. I can't remember exactly. Though I believe there might be around 6 pages or more of information you should probably read, but what you actually fill out is around 6 pages...

Documents to provide are: birth certificates, copies of w2 if you have a job, copy of bank statement, marriage certificates, copy of utility bills, and a rental contract, or mortgage statement.

Not a whole lot, and I am pretty disorganized person, but I manage to keep most of that handy. Though, here they review your case, mail you certified letter and give you 15-30 days to get the needed documents. Then they approve basing it upon initial application date.

So, I would agree, 18 page application of filling it out is a bit much. Her trying to kill her children and her self are irrelevant though to the application process.

No one in America will starve, except by choice or by force. As even if not given food stamps, there are plenty of food banks/homeless shelters etc, and plenty of food produced in our country to feed everyone in it and half the world.

 

[hal2kilo]

Just look at the quote in my sig and you will see the answer to this womans problem.

Sent with my brandy new Nook Tablet.

 

[woolfe9999]

Oh, you were asking where the moderate conservatives were? I thought you were questioning the existence of social darwinists. I agree that there aren't too many moderate conservatives on this board. When I said the majority of conservatives support food programs, I was talking about in the general population, not on this board. My post could have been clearer.

I don't know about the general population of conservatives, other than from opinion polls. There's probably some polling on social safety nets. I know that probably more than half support the continuation of Social Security and Medicare, but those are "pay in" programs, different from welfare-for-the-poor programs like food stamps. Anyway, I can't recall a conservative on this board saying anything non-negative about such programs. If this is not a representative sampling of conservatives, I wonder what biases the ATP&N sample toward the extreme. So far as I can tell, these are probably a slightly better educated sample here.

 

[xBiffx]

Just look at the quote in my sig and you will see the answer to this womans problem.

Sent with my brandy new Nook Tablet.

Ah, ok, finally found it.

I'm a liberal

 

[Infohawk]

I don't know about the general population of conservatives, other than from opinion polls. There's probably some polling on social safety nets. I know that probably more than half support the continuation of Social Security and Medicare, but those are "pay in" programs, different from welfare-for-the-poor programs like food stamps. Anyway, I can't recall a conservative on this board saying anything non-negative about such programs. If this is not a representative sampling of conservatives, I wonder what biases the ATP&N sample toward the extreme. So far as I can tell, these are probably a slightly better educated sample here.

I think online discussions attract more rabid partisans. Most people are just angry about something and want to beat up on people who disagree with them (I think that constitutes about 80% of P&N.) Most moderates don't seem quite as angry and if you're not as angry you're more likely to spend your time doing something more productive or friendly.

The left-wing of P&N doesn't seem as bad, but IMO they still strike me as a little more partisan than the general population. Say with illegal immigration or gay rights, I don't think the average person that votes Democrat is as lenient towards illegals or supportive of gay rights as the average P&N liberal is (for better or worse).

But what I've noticed from pressing posters like Spidey (if I'm recalling his specific case correctly) is that surprisingly they do still support a basic level of social programs. Just like when it comes down to it most liberals on P&N don't think the US should have completely open borders although my initial impression is that they really seem to want that.

That and the fact that we pay more attention to the extremes. If someone comes in and says something neutral like, "We need to balance fraud prevention with helping people who are in genuine need of assistance" they probably wont' get a lot of responses. If Spidey comes in and says they need to be sent to work camps, people get outraged, a few pages of discussion ensues and everyone remembers Spidey and uses him as an example of the extreme conservative.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

So the basic crux from the resident lefties in this post is that "Conservatives want women to kill their kids" because if you don't support government systems that are bureaucratically flawed, economically inefficient, along with serving as vehicles toward prompting reckless behavior in society you are a huge "monster".

But hey lets ignore the fact that this woman (if we use the rational by the liberals in this thread) was a "victim" of the very system that is being defended and which denied her access to these services. In addition her issue was probably placated by the fact that she only arrived in Texas from Ohio because she sought to distance herself from her husband. Hmmmm....I guess this might of played a role in her initial rejection by the food stamp folks.


Apparently her husband was seeking custody of their children due to her noted mental state of being that family members said had a potential to lead her to harm her kids.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...andoff-mentally-unsound-15106333#.TuBIdPLNlbo

Hmmm...custody issues? Nah that would never lead to anyone toward acting out irrationally on top of their cited mental illness by family members and a ex-husband.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-girl-12-shot-mother-denied-food-stamps.html

(Oooh looky here she moved out of state without informing the courts or her ex-husband.)

I'll let you some of you folks continue with the circle jerk and frothing at the mouth politicized accusations.

 

[Infohawk]

So the basic crux from the resident lefties in this post is that "Conservatives want women to kill their kids" because if you don't support a government systems that are bureaucratically flawed, economically inefficient, along with serving as vehicles toward prompting reckless behavior in society you are "monster".

...

I'll let you some of you folks continue with the circle jerk and frothing at the mouth politicized accusations.

Personally, I suggested right away that she was mentally ill. If what you're saying is true then maybe she was properly turned down for aid. On the other hand, would it really have been that bad if she got the food? We will probably never know if dealing with the bureaucracy was the final straw or not. Seems like there's a chance if she got her food she wouldn't have been set off that day and the justice system could have resolved the custody dispute to the children's benefit.

Or maybe you're just thinking of jstorm's post and are extrapolating to all resident lefties? He can exaggerate a little but it does seem like conservatives like the idea of punishing people who want assistance, whether it be with burdensome applications or making them take drug tests.

 

[drebo]

Dumb bitch would rather shoot herself and her kids than work for a living? Society is better off without them.

On a side note...if she's poor, where did she get a gun and bullets? Guns are pretty expensive, especially on the black market. Maybe if the bitch wasn't worthless, she'd have taken the money she spent on the gun and bought some fucking food for herself and her kids, thereby not needing food stamps.

Fix the fucking problem (that we need a food stamp program in the first place because of worthless, lazy, useless drains on society), not the symptom (the food stamp program).

 

[Infohawk]

This is good right conservatives? She was unable to support her kids so she killed them? Better then making me pay for them.

So the basic crux from the resident lefties in this post is that "Conservatives want women to kill their kids" because if you don't support government systems that are bureaucratically flawed, economically inefficient, along with serving as vehicles toward prompting reckless behavior in society you are a huge "monster".

Dumb bitch would rather shoot herself and her kids than work for a living? Society is better off without them.

Ducati, is it clear what the resident lefties were talking about now? If a guy who applauds the murder of children doesn't qualify as a monster, then who does?

 

[Texashiker]

Treating them like their probably lying scumbags from the get-go (which seems to be your initial position) is not the right attitude to have.

I think its a catch 22, yes there are people out there that need services, there are also people who abuse the system.

Between the people who sell their food stamp cards for drug money, to people to refuse to work, I think the amount of honest people using the system are in the minority.

Take an associate of mine as an example, he recently lost his job in a management position. We pulled some strings and got the guy an interview for a local security company. This is not a mall cop position, its providing security for a local chemical plant. The guy said the job offer did not pay enough - I think the starting pay is something like $18 an hour.

Someone is drawing unemployment, but turns down a job offer making $18 an hour + full benefits?

The guy has a family to take care of, car note, house note, insurance,,, but wants to be picky when he needs a job? The guy does not need a job, he needs a kick in the butt.

Cut out the illegals and the fraudsters with a robust national ID / database.

Ever hear of a thing called identify theft?

 

[TechBoyJK]

This is about bureaucracy getting in the way of helping people, not whether unemployed people have time or not. Odds are if you are applying for food stamps, you are down on your luck and under tremendous stress. Odds are you might not be that educated. Filling out 18 pages of forms and supplying documentation may be too much to handle for some people in such a situation. It's especially ridiculous when the government has all this information already. It just needs to be organized properly.

Shouldn't have kids then.

 

[Agfadoc]

Whatever happened to the fact that this woman was just crazy? Has that ever crossed your mind?

You know, I do visit about 35 forums, and this forum has, hands down, the farthest left people I have ever seen.. I would say 80% of the 35 forums that I frequent, are moderate people who can agree and disagree and find some happy medium with most topics. This one though.. Oh man, this one has the most vile liberals I have seen. Which in itself is pretty fun, for a minute or two.

You are not the majority. I will say this again.. YOU ARE NOT THE MAJORITY! You are delusional people living in a fantasy world. As we watch Europe collapse from the weight of it's entitlement society we still have people in America truly believing that more spending and larger government is the answer...

You are either a lair, or you are incompetent and off your meds...

 

[Texashiker]

Whatever happened to the fact that this woman was just crazy? Has that ever crossed your mind?

The first thing I thought about, is the shooter another Andrea Yates

For those of you that do not know who Andrea Yates is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates She drowned her 5 kids in a bathtub.

 

[Atreus21]

Ducati, is it clear what the resident lefties were talking about now? If a guy who applauds the murder of children doesn't qualify as a monster, then who does?

If lefties equate opposition to welfare with the murder of children, then they're stupid.

Furthermore, liberals walk a very thin line when they talk about the murder of children as if its a bad thing.

 

[drebo]

Ducati, is it clear what the resident lefties were talking about now? If a guy who applauds the murder of children doesn't qualify as a monster, then who does?

That's not what I said at all. Out of context quotes ftw?

My point was that society has a huge fucking problem if people who are capable of obtaining guns think it's easier to kill themselves than provide for themselves and their families.

Or, she was a nutcase and both sides arguments are irrelevant.

 

[Thump553]

I don't think I've ever filed out an 18 page application for anything-not any job, mortgage, loan, college, law school or court application. Sounds to me like the system is designed to intimidate and frustrate the applicants and this sad situation resulted because this lady reacted this way (rather than moving to another state, which is clearly the goal).

I'm reminded of the Buddist monks back in Vietnam who would douse themselves with gasoline and light themselves on fire to protest (admittedly they did not take other lives). Certainly extreme but I wouldn't necessarily leap to the crazy conclusion.

 

[Vic Vega]

Your right. She could have if she only wanted to get a job but she didn't so now she and her welfare babies are dead. Now I can get some more molded plastic from china in peace.

You are completely batshit insane.

 

[Texashiker]

I don't think I've ever filed out an 18 page application for anything-not any job, mortgage, loan, college, law school or court application. Sounds to me like the system is designed to intimidate and frustrate the applicants and this sad situation resulted because this lady reacted this way (rather than moving to another state, which is clearly the goal).

The food stamp program is a federal program.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/

Regardless of what state you go to, its pretty much going to be the same.

A lot of these assistance programs are designed to be portable from state to state. This means the programs are going to have the same requirements regardless of what state you are in.

During hurricane Katrina, Texas had an influx of women and children on the WIC program. If the person had proof they were on the WIC program in Louisiana, the person was instantly approved for benefits in Texas.

~~ EDIT ~~

Here is an example from 2003, which requires states to operate together.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/cga/speeches/ct072403.html

NS recently signed off on the EBT Inter-operability Final Rule. This rule lays out the technical requirements for food stamp interoperability and allows States to claim 100% reimbursement for the cost of switching and settling EBT transactions. The final rule also makes it optional for States to convert electronic benefits to coupons when a client moves to another State.

So there goes your theory about the paperwork having the goal of driving people of of the State. Regardless of what state you go to, the requirements have been outlined by the federal government.

 

[Infohawk]

If lefties equate opposition to welfare with the murder of children, then they're stupid.

No. Drebo was very clear despite his backtracking. He said society is better off that this undesirable killed herself and her offspring.

Furthermore, liberals walk a very thin line when they talk about the murder of children as if its a bad thing.

Ridiculous.