Modernizing 5-year-old PC

[IceBurner]

I'd like to upgrade. I have been out of the loop for 5 years so catching up has been difficult.

Current Build
Chassis: Antec P180B*
PSU: Thermaltake "Pure Power" 500W
Mainboard: ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe
CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2800+
Memory: Kingston 2GB DDR 333 (x2)
GPU: ATI Radeon X1650 Pro (AGP)
SPU: On-board "Bach" SPU. (An actual SPU, unlike AC97 trash)
Storage: 160GB Maxtor SATA (x2 RAIDed)*
Storage: 300GB Western Digital IDE*
Optical: Lite-On DVD-Writer (IDE)*
Other: TV tuner card used for video capture (generic PCI junk, but it works)*
Other: Internal USB Flash Card Reader*
External: All external components do not need replacement. Dual monitors.*
* Part will be retained

PC's purpose - PC is used for everything from accounting, to daily gaming, 3d modeling, and video recording/editing. The above was built for mid gaming performance with excessive RAM for graphic work.

Upgrade purpose - The core of motherboard, RAM, and CPU have lasted me 5 years and the architecture is now obsolete. I would like better performance in the past few years' worth of games, and mid performance in new titles. I'm also interested in near-0 dBa operation; not sure that's in the budget. I'm not interested in running Crysis on high (or at all ). Incresed electric efficiency would be nice if it doesn't subtract from other aspects.

Specific needs: A feature-rich motherboard. Loads of USB ports, including at least one (2 preferred) internal connection. 3 PCI slots. 6 SATA ports (planning for future). A quiet (or silent) PSU with modular cabling.

Upgrade budget - $800 USD. My target is ~$650 USD before taxes and shipping.

Billing/Shipping Country - USA

I have no brand loyalties. I am a total novice regarding Intel-based systems & silent-operaton components.

I will not overclock at all.

I have asked for help at various internet gaming forums before I came to my senses and checked here. The advice received went all over the place, so it's been largely disregarded.

Special note: I'm a patient man. If it's only X amount of time away from earth-shaking development Y, I will bide my time.

Current considerations:
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8200 Wolfdale 2.66GHz @ $180 USD
Mainbaord: GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 @ $125 USD
Memory: Mushkin 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (x2) $76
GPU: XFX PVT88PYDF4 GeForce 8800GT 512MB @ $180 USD
PSU: ???

If you would, please critique & suggest. Thank you for your time.

 

[Denithor]

Motherboard and memory you have selected are both great.

I would probably suggest either the e7200 (save $50) or the e8400 (add $20). You say you aren't interested in overclocking so the e8400 is probably better.

On the video card, there are several options today.

After MIR pricing:
8800GS $110 (get EVGA model with quiet fan)
9600GT $130
8800GT $160
8800GTS $200

For moderate gaming the 8800GS and 9600GT will probably suit you well. If you opt for a faster card the 8800GTS is probably the better option due to larger/quieter fan that exhausts hot air out the back of the case.

One final note: if your PSU is 5 years old it's time for a new one. These things die and sometimes take your system with them. Plus, systems today use mostly the 12V line versus a few years ago they focused on the 3.3V/5V lines much more heavily (therefore an old PSU may not provide the amps on the 12V needed for a new build). Get a 350W or higher unit from a good maker (Seasonic, Corsair, OCZ, Antec) and you won't regret it.

 

[IceBurner]

I'd forgotten because I didn't have to buy it, but a friend gave me that PSU about a year ago when they bought some no-name silent model (which is serving them well). It's only 3 years old at most (I helped her build that PC).

Nonetheless it is out of date and I want something more quiet with modular cabling.

I lean toward the higher end on video cards, but I think the 8800 GTS is just too expensive if I'm replacing the PSU. Is 350W really enough for all this? I have 3 HDDs already and plan to replace the IDE model with another pair of RAIDed SATA drives further into the future.

I'll have to do some number juggling and come back to this.

 

[DSF]

For a very quiet, modular PSU you're probably looking at the Corsair 520HX.

This is a very good deal:
http://www.buy.com/prod/corsai...loc/101/203270716.html

It's currently out of stock, but I would imagine they'll restock soon.

Most of the noise in the system comes from the fans, with some coming from the drives. If you're adding case fans, or if your current ones aren't quiet enough for your taste, look into Scythe's Slipstream series. The M, L and SL models are darn quiet. Depends on how much airflow you want.

As far as drives, I would consider getting new ones if your others are five years old. New drives will be quieter, faster, hold considerably more, and be less prone to failure. The WD Caviar 640GB is very good, as is Samsung's Spinpoint 750GB.

 

[DarkRogue]

I upgraded from a similar rig myself. Went from an Athlon XP 2600+ on Asus A7N8X Deluxe Rev 1.04 and 1GB of DDR-333 to what's in my sig.

CPU and mobo look good, although the E8400 is faster and can last you a while longer. I would suggest upgrading to 4GB (2x2GB) of RAM only because it's so cheap right now. Corsair 4GB kits are $74 after rebates. 8800GT is a great choice, although if you don't game too often you can save a few more bucks and some power by going to a 9600GT.
350 is enough, even if others tend to disagree. My rig is overclocked and runs fine with a 380w PSU - idles at 120 and loads at 200 measured from the wall.

Seasonic and Corsair are good ones to consider for PSU. Antec Earthwatts is also efficient but its 80mm fan is quite noisy compared to the 120mm fans used in the Seasonics and Corsairs. Either way they're all made by Seasonic.

As far as near 0dB operation, that's tough to achieve, but as long as the machine works below or near the room's ambient noise level it should be fine. I'd suggest a Scythe Ninja for the CPU heatsink as it can be run passively, and if you want, the Scythe Slipstream fan included with it can be undervolted and is very quiet. Go for an Arctic Cooling Accelero (S1 or S2) to cool your 8800GT as it can also be run passively (although I have the Turbo module also undervolted to cool it some more.) After that, get a Nexus or Scythe 120mm (I hear good things about Noctua fans too) for your case (and maybe undervolt that as well.) The P180 is a good case to start a quiet build from. See SPCR (SilentPCReview.com) for more help with quieting your PC. They helped me out quite a bit with my quiet gaming rig.

Hope this helps.

 

[IceBurner]

I game heavily. Edited initial post to reflect. Currently short on time for additional remarks.

 

[DSF]

Originally posted by: DarkRogue
Seasonic and Corsair are good ones to consider for PSU. Antec Earthwatts is also efficient but its 80mm fan is quite noisy compared to the 120mm fans used in the Seasonics and Corsairs. Either way they're all made by Seasonic.

Not all Corsairs are made by Seasonic. Some are made by Channel Well. Either way, they're all quality units. DarkRogue's point that you don't need a 500W PSU is valid. However, they don't make very many low-wattage modular PSUs. I thought Seasonic had one in the 400-450 Watt range, but I couldn't find it on Newegg.

 

[IceBurner]

Thank you very much for all the awesome advice.

A little clarification; when I wrote that the system hadn't changed, I had only listed the core components. I later added all the info below the SPU without considering how it invalidated the statement in the next paragraph . Edited in a fix.

The drives vary, but the oldest I bought about 3 years ago so it's not quite time yet.

Now that I know it should work out, I'd really like to draw less juice from the wall. I'll probably have to give up on modular cabling, dangit. The P182's cable management is awesome, but regular PSUs are still a PITA.

I spent time at SilentPCReview.com a year back, helping a friend pick a PSU (how I inherited a barely-used Thermaltake). I'll go back, but I wanted to ask here first out of greater overall trust.

Incidentally, my friend picked an off-brand 500W Aerocool Zero dBa, which is why I don't just buy what she did. To credit, it's almost truly 0 dBa and has been reliable for over a year.

I will have to give this much thought.

Regarding video, 8800GT feels the closest to "on-the-money". I've never bought above an X600-level card before, and there finally is one at my comfortable price point -- it'll be a treat. I don't see what the 9600 offers over the 8800, especially since I'm most concerned about making the games I already have more smooth with AA/AF active in 1024x768 or higher. I can't actually name a new game I plan to get at this time.

 

[DarkRogue]

1024x768 is a very CPU limited resolution, so your video card will likely be "bored" in which case saving a few more bucks and some power with the 9600GT is a better choice. The 8800GT starts to shine over the 9600GT when resolutions increase. I run 1280x1024 which is still CPU-limited, which is why I overclocked my CPU first - a 20% gain there means much more than overclocking my video card 20%. If you're going to keep the monitor and continue gaming at 1024x768, I suggest you save a few bucks on the video card and put them towards an E8400 instead.

As an example, I tried to see what kind of FPS drop I'd experience playing TF2. It uses the HL2 source engine which is quite old, but still widely used. I normally play at 1280x1024 with max detail and 4xMSAA and 2xAF. I get around 120-140fps. I upped those 2 settings to 16xCSAA and 16xAF. My FPS dropped to 100-110. Certainly there was an impact, but it was still very playable.

DSF - I did not know that about the Corsairs, thanks for the info.

The P182 is a good case, but it was basically a revised P180B. If you browse around I'm certain you can find guides from people who have modded their P180 into a P182. As far as modular PSUs are concerned, the lowest wattage modular model that Seasonic carries is the 500w one. M12 500 or something. You do pay a bit of an extra price for it though, so you may as well save a few bucks to get non-modular (and hide the cables somewhere) and save some more by using a lower wattage model. Some people debate this, but if you're using 150w you don't need 500w, and in fact, a 500w is going to be less efficient at handling 150w (low load) compared to a good 350-380w because the load (~50% load) is going to be right around the unit's maximum efficiency. You do, however, give up that "headroom" most people like to have abundant amounts of, but I highly doubt any non-SLI/Xfire, single card system will draw more than 400-450w.

 

[IceBurner]

Ooh, bit of an oversight on my part. It didn't cross my mind before, but the fact that I use dual monitors is an important consideration.

First I've heard of that concept. I'd be only too happy to play games at max resolution and 1024x768 is hardly my monitors' shared limit. I only kept it there because whenever I've raised the resolution I've lost FPS. Upgrading from a Radeon 9600 to an X1650 smoothed gaming a great deal and let me turn up all but the AA settings to max. I hadn't actually thought about raising the resolution as it seemed logical that it would bog down again.

So then the CPU upgrade is actually more important for me than the GPU? It's probably best to consider the E8400 for $20 then. I'd still rather have the higher-end video as I'll be incredibly glad to push the resolution. Very good news all-around, I think.

Assuming I did not go the silent-cool route immediately, are the stock coolers adequate for a Core 2 Duo?

 

[DarkRogue]

I don't know, I don't use it. There are a few people that asked about it on the CPU forums though, their temps seemed to be around 50-60C. It's acceptable and that means the HSF does the job, but it's far from doing it well. I'd also imagine it's noisy.

If you do bump up the resolution, I believe around 1600 is the switching point between being CPU limited and being GPU limited. (Edit - someone should clarify on this, as I'm not quite sure, but from various benchmark charts it looks like it.) The 8800GT should still deliver playable performance at 1920x1200 though, albeit some settings may be turned down depending on the game. E8400/8800GT is a very good combo IMO but if you're strapped for cash, lay out your priorities and see which pieces fit in the best.

Edit2:
Here's a quick rundown
E8400: $200
EP35-DS3R: $125
eVGA 8800GT: $160
Accelero S1: $30
Scythe Ninja: $45
4GB DDR2-800: $70
380w (Seasonic) - 450w (Corsair): $70
Total is around 700 or so after rebates.

Play around with it and see if you can knock it down some more. I threw in the Scythe and Accelero for a very quiet system build, but if you want to forgo that route, that's $75 saved immediately.

 

[IceBurner]

I'm not strapped for cash, my budget is just what I feel upgrading is worth to me. With a bit of work and a fair amount of help, it's turned out to be pretty close to spot-on.

Incidentally, where 's the $160 eVGA 800GT from? Newegg's lowest for that card is $190, $10 more than the XFX ($180). Google shows no better, and Buy.com's best straight deal is $200. I avoid all non-instant rebates.

 

[DSF]

A few thoughts on the PSU.

If you buy an 80PLUS certified PSU, the power supply will be at least 80% efficient all the way down to 20% load, meaning there's no harm done with a 500W PSU vs. a 350W one. The 500W one will be running cooler at the same load, which is better for the life of the unit. Either way, the power supply will only draw as much power as it needs from the wall. Running the same computer, a 500W and 350W PSU would draw the same amount of juice from the wall, give or take. The 500W doesn't automatically draw an extra 150W for no reason.

 

[DarkRogue]

The $160 eVGA 8800GT was after rebates. It's $190 with a $30 MIR.
If you want to avoid all MIR's then the cheapest 8800GT on Newegg atm is the Chaintech one for $175, which also comes with its own MIR.

As far as the PSU is concerned, that is true, the PSU will not draw more power than it needs to, but I was aiming my argument at the fact that most units have a lower efficiency (be it 80% or 75%) at a lower load level than at a middle load levels where it hits its peak of 85%-87% on some units. It's not much with low power requirements to begin with as it adds up to a difference of maybe a couple watts, but if you leave your PC on 24/7 that could potentially add up. That and the fact that you have to pay a higher initial price for the higher capacity unit to begin with. In the end it's your call, I just want to point out that having a PSU of less than 750w is still logical given the incredible marketing of more is better in the PSU industry. I get saddened when people with basic systems ask for a power supply and the responses are "Get that 600watt one, you NEED it."

 

[DSF]

Originally posted by: DarkRogue
The $160 eVGA 8800GT was after rebates. It's $190 with a $30 MIR.
If you want to avoid all MIR's then the cheapest 8800GT on Newegg atm is the Chaintech one for $175, which also comes with its own MIR.

As far as the PSU is concerned, that is true, the PSU will not draw more power than it needs to, but I was aiming my argument at the fact that most units have a lower efficiency (be it 80% or 75%) at a lower load level than at a middle load levels where it hits its peak of 85%-87% on some units. It's not much with low power requirements to begin with as it adds up to a difference of maybe a couple watts, but if you leave your PC on 24/7 that could potentially add up. That and the fact that you have to pay a higher initial price for the higher capacity unit to begin with. In the end it's your call, I just want to point out that having a PSU of less than 750w is still logical given the incredible marketing of more is better in the PSU industry. I get saddened when people with basic systems ask for a power supply and the responses are "Get that 600watt one, you NEED it."

Totally agree that 600-750W is over the top for the vast majority of users. Even enthusiasts.

 

[IceBurner]

Okay, after some thinking, I feel pretty good to go. Right now the E8400 is only $10 more on Newegg. I can even come in totally on budget if I hold off on passive cooling 'til I see what the noise is like.

The last variable is the video card.

I will be getting newer monitors next year and not half-assing it (pardon my French). As luck would have it, the LCD thread's top gaming pick is also modestly priced. At that time I'll certainly have the same video card I buy within the next few weeks, so it'd best be a forward-looking choice.

Additionally, I would like better dual display performance. Right now I can't set the refresh to max (both monitors go up 75 solo but not together). High refresh is actually very important for me; my eyes suffer from exponentially higher strain the lower the refresh. I know it's not the CPU limiting that. I'd like to be able to push two high-resolution displays at 75+ refresh.

The above is why the choice of 8800GT seems more sane to me, but if I knew what I was doing I wouldn't be here asking questions, would I?

So, which of the cards discussed so far seems most suitable?

 

[0roo0roo]

oh u use crt? else dropping resolution + raising aa would be rather pointless.
refresh rate is irrelevant for lcd btw. even 60hz is fine. they just work completely different from crt. backlight is constant, and sceen does not refresh line by line.

 

[IceBurner]

If you read up, it's a bit of a fallacy that refresh is totally meaningless on LCDs. There's a nice thread on it over at Tom's Hardware if you don't want to take my word for it. I can't link to it because of some weirdness, but google brought it up as top result.

Each individual pixel refreshes on LCDs and they still do it at a certain rate. Lower refresh & response both contribute to motion artifacting (motion ghosting/blurring) on LCDs.

Now I'm not suggesting most people have problems; I do. My eyes are ridiculously sensitive to everything and only getting worse as I age.

Some more recent LCDs are capable of 75"Hz" refresh, including the Acers I'd selected specifically for their speed. This only works, though, if your video card is actually sending updates fast enough as well, and for whatever reason I can't set them to 75 when running dual displays even though I can do so with either one of the two LCDs connected alone.

Dropping resolution and raising AA is partly because I'm too blind for when GUIs get real tiny. If the game's GUI scales, cranking the resolution instead looks better some of the time, but far too many (older) games don't handle this properly or still look jaggy to me.

My eyes suck. Be glad you've got better

 

[DarkRogue]

What LCD do you use/plan to use? From what I read (briefly) it seems there are only a few LCDs capable of "true" 75Hz.

I can't provide an answer to the dual-display question as I don't have one, I've only ever run a single display.
I'm thinking about getting a new LCD, but I don't have the funds yet. If I do, I may think about using my current LCD as a secondary display for those odd moments they come in handy.

 

[IceBurner]

Assuming continued availability and that I like how they look in-person, I'll choose from the top gaming picks in the LCD thread.

#1: 22" LG L227WT (1680x1050) and #3: 25.5" DoubleSight DS-263N (1920x1200) appeal the most.

The large sizes will help immensely with higher resolutions being too small.

Edit: I can't find the warranty info on that mushkin RAM and I noticed 2x2GB Kingston DDR2-800 would be a whopping $6 more. I checked the RAM topic and didn't see much. For all of $6, wouldn't it be worth getting Kingston anyway?

 

[IceBurner]

It's been several days and I'm still torn on just one thing. I've done more homework and now have second thoughts about buying a Gigabyte motherboard.

I've had two fail on me in the distant past, (original Athlon "era"), but was willing to let that go since it's been years. I see now, though, that there's an odd DPC latency issue and a really bad customer service track record.

I know I have no need for SLI/Crossfire, but the ASUS PK5 is the closest I could find in features & price from a brand I know to have good customer service. The price difference is only $10, or $20 if I want better RAID capabilities from the PK5 PRO/-E, however I think the feature set is slightly better on Gigabyte's DS3R.

Is there anything I should know about the ASUS PK5? Do I have nothing to worry about with the GA-EP35-DS3R, provided I gamble that I won't need customer support?

 

[DarkRogue]

As you said, Gigabyte P35 boards (so far, it looks like) are suffering from a DPC latency issue that ranges anywhere from a non-issue to a cause of stuttering. I have the problem as well, but thankfully for my motherboard it's not as bad and I have no real problems with it. However, there are others where the issue is causing skips/stuttering and can disrupt their work, so until this issue gets resolved, I'd have to recommend against the Gigabyte boards. They appear to be working on it though, the beta BIOS works for most people, but not all, so they have not released an official one yet.

I have no idea about the ASUS board, although I used an ASUS A7N8X Deluxe for my old rig 5 years ago, and that never let me down. I was going to go with ASUS again for my new rig, but back when I was doing research it seemed the ASUS boards had some problems that concerned me (although it's been a few months so I don't really remember exactly what anymore) and I ruled them out. Still, ASUS is usually a pretty solid choice as they're a good name brand manufacturer.

 

[IceBurner]

Taken to PC help.