Mobo OC goals for new system based on Penryn Q9450

[edrom]

BE SURE TO VOTE IN THE POLL JUST ABOVE THIS THREAD!
(Results will influence my purchase decision!)

I've been reading / lurking on these forums for quite a while. This is my first post on these forums so please be gentle. It's a little long, I know. But I can sure use some advice.

I'm building a new system based on the Penryn Q9450 and need some advice between 2 motherboards that I've been considering and can't make up my mind about. I also have a follow-up question that may be in the wrong forum but didn't want to double-post about my system and goals (below).

System:
Here is the equipment that I purchased so far: I have a SeaSonic S12 Energy Plus SS-650HT for power, Tuniq Tower 120 to cool along with several Enermax ENLOBAL fans and a Sunbeam Rheobus fan controller. I'm not a gamer at all so I got the EVGA GeForce 8600GTS PCI-eX16 which should be way more than my video needs. I do have a 1920x1200 display but only use it for video editing using Womble MPEG Video Wizard and Studio 11 Ultimate. Of course I watch DVD's and do other office type apps on this machine also.

I still need to purchase the CPU, motherboard, and memory.

Objectives:
For the processor, I'm sold on the Q9450 because it has the SSE4 instructions which will eventually be used by my fav. video editing software. (No, I haven't heard anything but I'm sure counting on it!) I really like the 45nm for 3 other reasons: lower power ($), cooler, and because they are cooler that means quieter (slower speed fans.) I like quad because I "spin off" jobs right and left and my dual core can't keep up with me. I hate to wait! Every time I see 100% CPU utilization I think that I need at least 2 more cores.

The motherboards that have really caught my attention are the ASUS P5K-E and the Rampage Formula because I can't afford DDR-3 memory right now and I want a solid, stable board with enough overclocking capabilities to get my Q9450 up to about 3ghz, a modest OC objective, I think.

I do realize that there are a lot of differences between these boards. X35 v X48, the Rampage awesome passive NB/SB cooling, OC-ing capabilities, PCI-e 2.0, and, I'm sure, other things. The P5K-E has some pretty good passive cooling, OCs well, no need for PCI-e 2.0 for me, and also has lots of other goodies. Oh, and there's the price difference...

My priorities are these: Stable, quiet, fast, and keep heat and power down.

Stable: I leave my machines on 24x7 since I'm always rendering something and that can take a while. 🙂 So a main goal of mine is to have a stable system. Like in the old days when the UNIX system where I worked ran 24x7 for YEARS before needing to reboot, (4.5 years is our record), I never reboot here unless I absolutely have to.

Quiet: I am disabled so my setup is a monitor mounted on a hospital-like bed tray table, a wireless Logitech VX Revolution mouse and DiNovo Edge keyboard, and my tower to my left between the bed and nightstand. The room is noisy enough and I don't want a vacuum cleaner sitting right next to me 24x7.

Fast: As I said, I hate to wait. But I also can't afford extreme components on a fixed disability income. This is my first system build (for myself) in a more than a few years. (I've purchased or built numerous systems for others but they have all been much more modest.)

Here's why I can't decide between the ASUS P5K-E and the Rampage Formula motherboards:

The P5K-E offers a great price and proven reliability (although I haven't yet seen any reviews with a Q9450 in one). It has everything that I really need - I think.

The Rampage was built for the Penryn processors and it has great OC capabilities which, to me, translates into greater stability between processor and FSB speed and memory matching. I've never seen anything like it.

I read and was completely blown away by the outstanding Anandtech review of the Rampage: "ASUS ROG Rampage Formula"
The article made me realize the intricacies of memory timing, something I wish I didn't know about, but now that I do, I want to make a fast and stable system using this technology. In short, I would like a low tRD for a low Trd.

I'd like to shoot for a 3ghz processor speed, (which would be a 7.5 multi, I think), and the "Best Pick: Recommended DDR2 Memory Configurations" on Page 9 of the Anandtech Rampage review:
FSB: 400
tRD: 6 or 5
Trd: 15 or 12.5 ns
Divider: 1:1 or 5:4
DDR: 800 or 1000
CAS: 3 or 4

So my main question is which board, the ASUS P5K-E or the Rampage Formula, will best fit my needs. I'm open to hearing about other boards, too.

My follow-up question is what memory should I use with the board/CPU? I need specifics, please.

I looked for DDR-800 CAS 3 and DDR-1000 CAS 4 (at the egg) and it seems that these are only obtained via overclocking - which is, of course, what I intend to do. But I'm more than a little scared of getting the wrong memory for the job. I'm looking for 2gb x 2 for a total of 4gb in 2 slots. I'll pay more for cooler and more stable memory, but not a lot more. Memory heat spreaders are great, but I like the add-on Thermaltake CL-R0026 Aluminum Heatsinks- but they are pricey. I guess if I want quiet/cool I need to shell out for it.

Priorities again: stable, quiet (cool, i.e. slow or no fans), and fast quad core.

Incidentals:
I plan to run 5 or 6 SATA drives and 2 IDE DVD burners. I have a PCI card here which will give me additional IDE ports if the mobo doesn't have what I need. Setup: 4 drives in a RAID 5 config, one drive of OS and apps, another 10k RPM drive for cache, (both OS and various apps cache).

Your advice, comments, suggestions, or laughter will be most appreciated!

Thanks,
Ed

 

[edrom]

:brokenheart:

I guess I hoped that more than one person would at least vote and maybe someone else respond.. I do need some advice..

Please be sure to vote above. It really will help me. Please post if you have anything to add.

Edrom

 

[Soubriquet]

I dont think the Q9450 is unlocked, so you are not able to play with multipliers, I read that somewhere and maybe someone else can correct me if wrong. So you have to do FSB clocking with that. So you probably need a flexible memory divider, and the Rampage will have the best BIOS for that kind of thing, probably. Anand said it has more memory tweaks than average and apparently they make a difference.

You said it yourself "The Rampage was built for the Penryn processors" there is your answer. But it costs about twice the money. Either will work well but Rampage will work better.

 

[edrom]

Well, if the 9450 is lock at 8, and it probably is I think, then 8 * 400 is 3.2ghz and I'd be happy with that if it is stable.

I'm still reading the review article on the Rampage and trying to understand memory timings better. I don't have to have everything set to even numbers (400, 4-4-4-12, 1:1) so long as I'm not wasting clock cycles waiting on data, running too much voltage, getting too hot, ..

The CPU specification says speed 2,667 mhz, FSB 1,333 mhz, --do I then divide that by 4 (cores) to get 333 mhz FSB?? So (going the other way) then would I multiply a 400 FSB times 4 (cores) to get 1600 total FBS? Can the CPU and north bridge handle that much throughput?

I'm really not wanting miracles. But so long as a 2.6ghz CPU can be OC-ed to something greater, and if memory timings can be tweaked such that clock cycles are not wasted, then I'll do something about it, that is, I'll OC and tweak so long as I can maintain a stable system.

Or should I just be satisified with stock timings all around? (Please say "no!")

You are right about the Rampage, of course. If I'm going to tweak memory at all that is the board for it. So maybe that's my answer there.

I'll have to see what other people are doing with the Rampage and with the Q9450 and get some ideas from them. Or maybe I can experiment and learn some things and then share them here.

Well, thanks Soubriquet, for your comments.

 

[edrom]

I only got 3 votes but I got some good advice, too. Thanks for the advice.

I'm gonna wait for the Rampage Formula. It will probably be one of the last of the socket 775 MBs. I guess whaever initial probs are found can be fixed in s bios update.

As I wait I can begin assemblying the computer. I've decided to put the Season S12 PSU in with the fan facing the inside to draw air from there instead of the dusty floor. I have the Cooler Master cm-690 case and can install the PSU either way - and the PSU location is at the bottom of the case. I also have 6 hard drives and the case holds 5 normally so I'll put one in a 5.25" bay. I have fans to install, (had to order another 80mm fan because I neglected to see that I needed a 15mm wide low profile for under the MB.)

I'll might post elsewhere about this since I'm not getting much response here. Maybe I'm getting off my initial subject. But I want to cool the CPU, NB, SB, video, everything quietly. And I have to decide which fans will be exhaust and which will be intake. I have a plan but I don't know if it makes any sense: 1 on the front and 2 on the side will be intake. They will be easy to clean. Outflow will be 2 on the top, 1 on the rear. Not sure about the bottom fan - either I won't use that position or it will be an outflow. Also not sure on the one under the mobo whether it will be in or out. The PSU, as I said, will go flow air out of the case.

Then there is the controller. Again, I have a plan. Each of 4 channels handles 2 channels.

chn1: 2 fans on the side
chn2: 2 fans on the top
chn3: outtake (rear fan and probably the one under the mobo although these are 2 different kinds of fans and I'm not sure I should mix different amperages.)
chn4: intake: one on the front

The Tuniq Tower will be controlled by the mobo, the PSU will be controlled by the PSU, there is a small fan on the graphics card..

I think I have enough fans. 🙂 My thought here, (maybe this isn't going to work like I think it is), is that many fans running slowly will be quieter than a few fans running fast.

So I have a lot to do before the Q9450 and ASUS Rampage Formula are released. Being disabled I estimate that it takes around 10 times the amount of time to do things than if I wasn't disabled. I rely on my children to do the actual work, I guide and sometimes lend assistance. It is a slow but fun process.

As usual, I ask for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions. I should make a list of all the things I've gained from forums, that is, things that I'm doing differently because of what I've learned on the forums.

Edro

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

If you only want ~3GHz, why not save some $$$ and get a P35 board?

The new 45nm quads are FSB limited for overclocking, but since you only want ~3GHz, that isn't an issue. Almost all decent P35 boards will do 400x8 for 3.2GHZ, and it certainly shouldn't be hard for the CPU to run at 3.2GHz.

The only thing the X38/X48 boards give is Crossfire, so unless you want that, I'd get a P35. The BIOS are pretty mature, and you won't gain any speed going to a X48.

Add 4Gig of DDR2-800 RAM (only ~$70-80) and you should be good to go.

 

[edrom]

That is the very reason that I posted here, that is, I couldn't decide between a mature P35 and the cutting edge x48 chipset. I don't need crossfire, pci-e 2.0, or ddr3.

I do however, like the easier and more thorough memory timing adjustments that the Rampage Formula will allow. But I probably can do without that, too.

My original goal was using a Q6600 in the ASUS P5K-E. But I also was going to use a cheapo PSU and a $50 SAPPHIRE Radeon X1650 something or another graphics card. I got good advice and got the Seasonic S12 (650w) and EVGA GeForce 8600GTS graphics card instead. So I'm still open for these last 3 very important pieces: mobo, cpu, and memory.

Well, I'm not so open to the cpu anymore. To each his/her own. I realize that the Q6600 is a great quad processor and, in fact, that CPU in the P5K-E was my original plan. But I really like the lower power, lower heat, and additional instructions that the Q9450 has in spite of the low multi.

So I'll keep thinking about the mobo, either the P5K-E or Rampage Formula. I like to save $$ but I have a budget and I'm still below it, so I can probably still afford either mobo.

The other big thing that I need to figure out (and probably should start another thread for this) is what memory to use. I keep hearing about the Mushkin HP 6400 but that doesn't seem to fit the preferred timing goals proposed on this page:
See the chart near the bottom of the page titled: "Best Pick: Recommended DDR2 Memory Configurations"

As on the Anandtech review page above, I have this question: Where can I find DDR2-1000 CAS 4 or DDR2-800 CAS 3 that I can run on a 400 FSB? Or are my goals too, uh, naive? I have not seen that kind of memory anywhere yet. I don't want to extreme OC because I want long-term stability. Where does that leave me in terms of memory and timings?

I guess I need to start another thread. Do you think so? The scope of the question I have about memory is, at least, more contained than my mobo question, I think.

Summary: 3 things left to purchase:

• CPU: Q9450 (I'm set on this processor)
  
  Mobo: P5K-E or Rampage Formula (still not absolutely sure and only 3 votes are in on this)
  
  Memory: clueless - I really need some help with this selection.. Too many to choose from. None seem to fit the "Best Pick" chart.

Edro

 

[lopri]

Most Micron D9 sticks will do DDR2-800/CL3 or DDR2-1000/CL4 around 2.2V. Unfortunately that doesn't apply to 2GB sticks, however. The AT article is based on 1GB sticks usage scenario and leading to a strange conclusion. (I still don't understand how they ended up with X48's worthiness after such a great analysis on chipset-memory configuration) Therefore they assume CL3 @800MHz and CL4 @1000MHz. But as you could tell from reading the entire article, what's most important for the performance is chipset latency. I haven't touched an X38/X48, but from various readings it is clear that the boards are optimized for 333 strap, but in the case of Rampage Formula it lets you select tRD (which was set automatically per straps in the past). Basically what you want is the fastest chipset timing, plus memory configuration that's possible under that chipset timing. Note that chipset timing comes first then memory follows it.

I won't go any deeper, but the reality is that you're not likely find 2GB sticks that will behave like 1GB sticks. Further, even with 1GB sticks, often times the choices will be limited as the FSB goes up. You will end up with one or two choices that are practical (meaning something you can rely on 24/7, not for a 10 min bench session). Good news is, the difference between such setups (24/7 setup vs suicide run setup) is quite negligible and that's why people seek benchmarks to validate their configuration. Hell, if someone can *feel* the difference between DDR2-800 and DDR2-1000 without looking at cpu-z.. God bless him.

I think you've done enough homework to start building.. then again Q9400 isn't availble yet, is it? In any case, I'd go for 8x400 with 1:1 or 4:5 and try to lower the voltages for CPU, NB, memory instead of achieving overly high memory frequency/timing.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: edrom
That is the very reason that I posted here, that is, I couldn't decide between a mature P35 and the cutting edge x48 chipset. I don't need crossfire, pci-e 2.0, or ddr3.

The I would definitely get a P35 based board. Abit, Asus, Gigabyte, DFI are all good choices

I do however, like the easier and more thorough memory timing adjustments that the Rampage Formula will allow. But I probably can do without that, too.

To be honest, unless you going to try and run super pi benchmarks or something similar, almost all the fancy memory settings won't be noticeable to you, so don't bother.

My original goal was using a Q6600 in the ASUS P5K-E. But I also was going to use a cheapo PSU and a $50 SAPPHIRE Radeon X1650 something or another graphics card. I got good advice and got the Seasonic S12 (650w) and EVGA GeForce 8600GTS graphics card instead. So I'm still open for these last 3 very important pieces: mobo, cpu, and memory.

Good call on the PSU and VC

So I'll keep thinking about the mobo, either the P5K-E or Rampage Formula. I like to save $$ but I have a budget and I'm still below it, so I can probably still afford either mobo.

Save the $$$ and go P35

The other big thing that I need to figure out (and probably should start another thread for this) is what memory to use. I keep hearing about the Mushkin HP 6400 but that doesn't seem to fit the preferred timing goals proposed on this page:
See the chart near the bottom of the page titled: "Best Pick: Recommended DDR2 Memory Configurations"

As on the Anandtech review page above, I have this question: Where can I find DDR2-1000 CAS 4 or DDR2-800 CAS 3 that I can run on a 400 FSB? Or are my goals too, uh, naive? I have not seen that kind of memory anywhere yet. I don't want to extreme OC because I want long-term stability. Where does that leave me in terms of memory and timings?

I guess I need to start another thread. Do you think so? The scope of the question I have about memory is, at least, more contained than my mobo question, I think.

Running at 400FSB with a 8X muliplier will give you 3.2GHz. That will let you run DDR2-800 RAM at spec. You really don't need any fancy memory, either lower CAS rating or higher FSB rating for what you are planning to do. If you want to try and hit 3.6GHz, that means a FSB of 445, so then you would need DDR2-890.

Quantity of RAM > Speed of RAM. CPU speed will govern most applications, so don't spend more money then you have to on expensive RAM. Any good company (Patriot, OCZ, Mushkin, GSkill, Geil, Corsair) has DDR2-800 5-5-5 2x2Gig kits for like $70-80. That's all you need to hit 3.2GHz. And you won't ever notice a difference between RAM running at 800 or 1000, or CAS 5 vs 4 unless you start running super pi or some other benchmark. In real world usage, you won't be able to tell a thing.

Check the Hot deals forum to over the next week, and find a good deal on RAM. Chances are good that all the companies above are using the same RAM chips in their products anyway.

 

[edrom]

lopri,

You've given me a lot to think about.

You said,

Note that chipset timing comes first then memory follows it.

Do you mean that one should establish the chipset timing (as in FSB) first and then find memory timing to match it? That's what I sort of figured on although I think most of this is way over my head. I picked the 400 FBS target thinking that with an 8 multi / 3.2ghz cpu speed, I could use ddr2 800 and the timing would work out without delays. But then I read the article and realized that I knew very little about memory timings.

I do want 2gb sticks. I'll only get 2 of 'em for now prolly and 2 more later on when I know that my fav. software works with Vista 64. (I'm also dual boot openSUSE..)

Hell, if someone can *feel* the difference between DDR2-800 and DDR2-1000 without looking at cpu-z.. God bless him.

Yep. I read ya.

BYW, I enjoy reading people's config in their sigs. I like that you specify your 4 machines. I'll have to work on a good sig like that. I use one machine to record video using 3 Hauppauge recorders and Snapstream Media Beyond TV (a great product) and it doubles as a media center PC at times (we watch stuff on it.) Then I have a custom build Athlon 64 box which helps me with rendering stuff so I don't have to suffer poor user response. I control these two with a notebook mounted on a tray table using UltraVNC. But my replacement PC will allow me to do so much more. Woo hoo!

Edro

 

[edrom]

GarfieldtheCat,

You've given me some real solid advice.

One of my computers is custom built around an Athlon 64 3000+ (2ghz) on a K8N Neo3 mobo with a pair of 10krpm Raptor drives. When I render videos I peg the processor at 100% for hours, sometimes most of a day depending on what I'm doing.

So even though I'm not running super pi don't you think that I'll need fast access between cpu and memory? I'll be running four 750gb drives in a RAID 5 config plus another 250gb drive for the os plus a 10kRPM drive for application and os cache. There are always bottlenecks but I hope to minimize them wherever I can, memory or hard drive access.

Running at 400FSB with a 8X muliplier will give you 3.2GHz. That will let you run DDR2-800 RAM at spec.

I'm not going any higher than 3.2. And I'm not going to do any benchmarks, well, maybe some, but just initially.

How does the 800 in DDR2-800 relate to the 400 FSB? (I'm really showing my ignorance right now, I think.) I almost get the idea that you are saying timings won't matter to me because I'm not "bench pressing." Please help me to believe this.

In other words, are you saying that DDR2-800 CAS 5 or CAS 4 isn't going to matter to me? I had thought otherwise. (Please don't take offense, but I'm not yet convinced. If you would help me to understand...)

Actually this would be a big relief to me. I have everything already purchased except the cpu, mobo and memory. It has always been between the two mobos, but I was really clueless about memory.

Yes, there are a lot of good vendors out there as you listed. I might have an easier time chosing one now.

Thank you so much for your response! Please be patient with me!

Edro

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: edrom
GarfieldtheCat,

You've given me some real solid advice.

One of my computers is custom built around an Athlon 64 3000+ (2ghz) on a K8N Neo3 mobo with a pair of 10krpm Raptor drives. When I render videos I peg the processor at 100% for hours, sometimes most of a day depending on what I'm doing.

So even though I'm not running super pi don't you think that I'll need fast access between cpu and memory? I'll be running four 750gb drives in a RAID 5 config plus another 250gb drive for the os plus a 10kRPM drive for application and os cache. There are always bottlenecks but I hope to minimize them wherever I can, memory or hard drive access.

When I mentioned super pi, I meant that unless you are trying to benchmark your PC, you won't be able to tell the difference between DDR2-800 running at 5-5-5 vs DDR2-1000 at 5-5-5.

How does the 800 in DDR2-800 relate to the 400 FSB? (I'm really showing my ignorance right now, I think.) I almost get the idea that you are saying timings won't matter to me because I'm not "bench pressing." Please help me to believe this.

DDR is "Double data rate" RAM. That means the RAM transfers data at twice the rate of the FSB speed. So if your FSB is 200MHz, your RAM runs at 400. 333FSB=667, and at 400FSB, you get DDR2-800.

Take a look at this article on memory speeds and timings. You can tell a difference in the synthetic tests and benchmarks, but looking at the real world tests (games), you only see 3-5% difference between really expensive fast RAM, and "regular" DDR2-800 RAM.

In other words, are you saying that DDR2-800 CAS 5 or CAS 4 isn't going to matter to me? I had thought otherwise. (Please don't take offense, but I'm not yet convinced. If you would help me to understand...)

Look at the above article. Going from DDR2-800 @ 5-5-5 to DDR2-1067 @ 4-4-4 (expensive RAM for sure!) the improvement you get is for Quake 4 is <1%, FEAR is ~1%, HL2 is ~3%
and Far Cry is the best at ~6%.


Dont' worry about it. It's confusing to a lot of people, and hard to figure out at first. Also, you get a lot of people and companies trying to blow this out of proportion becuase they want you to buy their expensive RAM. But to me, it's just not worth it.

 

[edrom]

GarfieldtheCat,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I believe!

I read all of the article on memory speeds and timings that you referred to and a few pages of another (even more difficult to understand) article that had a link from the memory speeds and timings article.

My conclusion is exactly what you have been telling me. I still don't understand it completely but I can see clearly enough that any gain would be on the order of 1-5%, more so like 1%, and it just isn't worth the extra $$$. I actually did some of the calculations myself and came up with exactly the values that the article stated. Of course, they provided all the data in the first place, but it was still good for me to go through the calculations.

I sure do make things complicated! Sorry about that. Thanks for your patience with me.

Well, for the sake of stability and for a mere $15 more (per 4 gig), I did get DDR2-1000 5-5-5-15 which, I'm told, can be very nicely underclocked to DDR2-800 4-4-4-12. I don't expect any real gain other than memory that should perform consistently for me. It has a lifetime warranty in any event. I did get 2 sets so when I go with a 64 bit OS all the memory matches. Somehow I think that might be important for compatibility.

The memory is on the way. In case you are interested, this is what I got.

Now I'm only waiting for the Q9450 to be released. I tried to pre-order (for $5) somewhere but the website didn't recognize my address (it is a little strange) and so it wouldn't take my CC. I expect the Q9450 price to be about $350.

Every once in a while I begin to reconsider the Q6600 - a great processer indeed! And for $100 less than the expected Q9450 price. ..I'll hold out. But no doubt getting a Q6600 on a P35 chipset MB would be a great setup.

When I'm all done I'll post my final config and the price I actually paid for each thing. I have it now in an spreadsheet but I'd like to wait on my last 2 purchases, the cpu and mobo. (I still haven't decided on the mobo yet..)

Edro