Mobile Haswell achieves all day battery life - beginning of the end for ARM?

Discussion in 'CPUs and Overclocking' started by blackened23, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. blackened23

    blackened23 Diamond Member

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    Surface Pro has half the battery life and 300% more performance, full x86 compatibility with billions of applications, isn't a toy media consumption device, sounds about right to me. We're talking about Haswell, however. It's no secret that Ivy Bridge core processors aren't as good as ARM devices in terms of battery life.
     
  2. Idontcare

    Idontcare Elite Member

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    My post was specific in discussing 64-bit server applications. Yours appears to be specific in discussing mobile SoC applications.

    You can see how/why that would make your post, while accurate, irrelevant to the context that mine was addressing, yes?
     
  3. Phynaz

    Phynaz Diamond Member

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    Surface pro isn't running a ULV CPU. So battery life could be doubled right there.

    And that Tegra 3 is slower than slow. It's not anywhere near the same performance class.
     
  4. Exophase

    Exophase Diamond Member

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    What impact can other IP on a server SoC outside of the processor (interconnects etc)? You'd think companies like AppliedMicro, SeaMicro via AMD, Calxeda, etc have enough server pedigree that they can offer at least something unique and useful that Intel isn't. If not out of special experience at least out of being able to address more markets.
     
  5. SickBeast

    SickBeast Lifer

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    You're forgetting about price. Since when does Intel sell CPUs for less than $20 each? Not only that, but ARM has established a massive software library for iOS and Android. I think if and when Apple switches their entire platform (laptops, desktops, everything) to ARM, it will be very bad for Intel.

    I agree that in certain aspects Intel holds a massive performance advantage over ARM. That said, how fast do you need your smartphone's CPU to be? I have a dual core snapdragon and I don't really feel the need for more processing power. I don't even know what I would do with it. Price and battery life are most important for phones and tablets, and ARM simply owns this market. It's got to be affecting Intel's bottom line by now and IMO they are too late to respond with Haswell which looks by all accounts to be a very efficient desktop processor. It will be interesting to see how it does in a tablet, but really if you look at the Surface Pro with Ivy Bridge, it barely gets 4 hours of battery life whereas the ARM tablets can run all day if not longer.
     
  6. dagamer34

    dagamer34 Platinum Member

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    Krait is competing against a 5-year old Atom design that I'm sure Intel has been purposefully gimping/neglecting in order to sell more Core chips. Imagine if they had actually dedicated even 1/2 the amount of resources their Core line gets to Atom chips, churning out improvements every year, the ARM threat would be toast and the iPad wouldn't be quite so dominant. But it's hard to let go of selling $225 mobile chips...
     
  7. RU482

    RU482 Lifer

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    last time I checked, the Core i5-3317U is a ULV CPU
     
  8. Charles Kozierok

    Charles Kozierok Elite Member

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    Intel is hyping up Haswell for the obvious reason -- new product coming out and they want to sell chips.

    But I think Broadwell is the uarch that's really going to make people sit up and take notice. Just a hunch, but my guess is that more power efficiency tweaks plus the shrink to 14 nm are going to make a huge difference.

    I'm way, way overdue for a new laptop but might wait another year because of this, depending on how good Haswell devices actually perform.
     
  9. Charles Kozierok

    Charles Kozierok Elite Member

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    It is, but they have an even lower class now, the "Y" chips.
     
  10. Roland00Address

    Roland00Address Golden Member

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    No devices are out yet in the wild. They will be soon, probably in only 3 months, but still not yet.

    That said we will probably get ulv haswell in only 6 to 7 months.
     
  11. carop

    carop Member

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    According to the SeaMicro article by Marcus Pollice at BSN, Intel did not like the idea of putting Atom CPUs into servers when Andrew Feldman approached Intel. Eventually, they were allowed to design a microserver board based on Atom CPUs. Feldman is now running the Data Center Service Division at AMD.

    http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/12/21/andrew-feldman-of-seamicro-talks-small-x86-microserver-business.aspx

    It seems that this reluctance of Intel may have left the door open for ARM servers:

    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4406508/Intel-microserver-leaves--2-3B-door-open-for-ARM

    Intel will probably lead. However, there might be an ASP disruption ahead.
     
  12. Piroko

    Piroko Senior member

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    Pretty far fetched that a slightly more agressive bin of the same die will lead to doubling the battery life.
    Haswell might improve on this, but I doubt we'll see a lot of those Ivb Y chips in devices until then.
     
  13. jihe

    jihe Senior member

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    LOL I assure you it will be worse for apple.

     
  14. blackened23

    blackened23 Diamond Member

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    It all boils down to whether the capability and "slow but good enough" performance of ARM devices is enough for some people. It is for some, but not for others.

    I am one who wants more functionality, I don't want two devices - I want one; I want one device that I can use for media consumption and ipad-esque toy value, and I want the same device to double up for photoshop, excel, powerpoint, and steam games every now and then. Currently I have both a tablet and an ultrabook. I recognize that there are some interesting uses of the ipad for productivity related usage, but I think everyone can agree that x86 is far more versatile with respect to productivity, all other things being equal.

    Cheap, slow, and "good enough" ARM devices are a sizable market chunk, sure I can agree to that. But there are some who definitely yearn for more out of their mobile computing experience, and intel will deliver that WITHOUT any sacrifice to battery life (if rumors are true). That is why I believe intel will dominate the premium 500$+ tablet market once broadwell, possibly even haswell hits. Again -- if intel delivers on all fronts, ARM will only be competing for price; Intel will dominate the premium 500$+ tablet area if they deliver on battery life.
     
    #114 blackened23, Feb 10, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  15. Phynaz

    Phynaz Diamond Member

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    14w vs 35w.
     
  16. NTMBK

    NTMBK Diamond Member

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    i5-3317U has a 17W TDP.
     
  17. jvroig

    jvroig Platinum Member

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    The exact TDP actually doesn't matter in this context. Even if the CPU TDP's in question were 10W vs 35W, instead of 17W vs 35W, I don't think it would lead to a doubling of battery life.

    Other components draw more power than the CPU's contribution to the total power consumption, and unless all these other components also decrease significantly (screen/display, wi-fi, radio, storage subsys, etc), battery life won't double from where it is now just because the CPU component consumes 50+% less power.
     
  18. Piroko

    Piroko Senior member

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    17W TDP probably clocked 1 Ghz @ 1V when playing back hd streams vs. 35W TDP, clocked 1 Ghz @ 1-1.1V. Shouldn't take you more infos to figure out the potential savings @ low load scenarios.
     
  19. Phynaz

    Phynaz Diamond Member

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    You're correct. It's not the 7W.
     
  20. IntelUser2000

    IntelUser2000 Elite Member

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    First, stop with the AMD vs Intel posts!! Do it in a thread that actually discusses about it. I know there are tons of them. I swear, half of the population nowadays have ADD.

    -TDP is absolutely irrelevant for low load battery life.
    -In real life though, 17W chips are better binned than 35W ones so they do exhibit lower power use in all scenarios. But the difference other than TDP is very little
    -When they say "TDP" it means when its running at TOP frequency ranges, not meager 1GHz ones. TDP is for thermal design, which means its worst case, which means it actually is for heavy load power use but not much worth for anything less

    Modern CPUs already use few hundreds mW of power at deep C states, and it reaches it often, so even eliminating that won't help more than 5%.
    Fortunately, despite all the focus about Haswell on the CPU side, its really about the platform power management.

    Of course, you won't see outrageous gains like 3x, but it should be really good. Caveat is though, it only applies for Ultrabook platforms, not the ultra high end quad core chips and mainstream laptops.

    2012 2nd Generation Ultrabook "Ivy Bridge" guidelines state: Minimum 5 hours of battery life

    2013 3rd Generation Ultrabook "Haswell" guidelines state: Minimum 8 hours of battery life

    -Battery life claims are always in light load scenarios, like optimized streaming, or local video playback or web browsing
    -Yes, I've seen slides that also claim 9 hours. But I believe 8 hours is for lower cost lower capacity battery ones while premium systems are for 9+ hours with better optimization and more capacity battery.
    -You should realistically see gains in heavy load as well, because we're going from 17W TDP + chipset to a 15W SoC. But probably not enough to matter for most.
     
    #120 IntelUser2000, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  21. Charles Kozierok

    Charles Kozierok Elite Member

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    I wish Intel or someone would put one tenth the R&D dollars into new battery technologies that they do into lower-powered chips. How long has it been since a new battery technology went mainstream? Seems like we've been using lithium ions for at least a decade.
     
  22. IntelUser2000

    IntelUser2000 Elite Member

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    It may not be that simple. The biggest roadblock to their success is now Microsoft, with their Windows 8 OS.

    I've bought a Tablet for my parents based on Windows 8, and while they are fortunate that they don't have to figure out themselves, other people do. Various factors are putting pressure on PC manufacturers to go for lower quality(lower ASPs for example), and skimp on things they can't sacrifice on.

    -Things like how Touchpad sucks on Windows devices, and Windows 8 makes it worse with default "gesture" on the touchpad interfering with regular touchpad operation.
    -Modern UI is a useless version of the Desktop, with worse quality, feature-cut, and less compatibility. Case in point is Skype, where Desktop shows a 2 megapixel camera as a 2 megapixel quality but as blocky textures in the Modern UI version. "Modern" UI my ass! IE is a flash-disabled version on the Modern UI, while the Desktop UI is a full featured one with home buttons, forward buttons, etc.

    My parents find it complicated to remember 3 gestures to log into Windows 8. How would they find everything else?

    Unfortunately, that's what I believe most people are. And even for techies like us, we do want an easier to use system, not a more complicated one.
     
  23. IntelUser2000

    IntelUser2000 Elite Member

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    Interesting thing. I've heard a conversation of my co-workers talking about PC games. They say new games are "too complicated". Look at the games people play on their Smartphones. It may be "3D", but the popular ones are side-scrollers! It's back to the future in real life!

    Also read about how StarCraft 2 isn't as popular in Korea as StarCraft was and some state its because its too complicated. StarCraft 2 has definite counters to units, so its not as viable to mass one unit win as in the first StarCraft.

    I'm gradually lowering my expectations on Windows devices being the key for PC. Statistics show that the decline is just like the time when Windows took over other operating systems 20-30 years ago. That's not going to stop unless MS really pulls their head out of their asses. And that's very much relevant for Intel. I suggest they look at funding into alternative operating systems even for their Core chips, like Android and Chrome. It may not be a viable contender now, but things are changing, very fast.

    Simple, wins.
     
    #123 IntelUser2000, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  24. Idontcare

    Idontcare Elite Member

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    Battery tech is limited by the periodic table and it is brutally limited in options :(

    There are few, truly few, options beyond lithium ion for next gen battery tech. Hence the discussion on fuel-cell alternatives.

    Energy density is rather limited when it comes to chemical bonds. Now if you go nuclear - fissile or fusion - you gain a few orders of magnitude in energy density.

    I'm hoping for a back-to-the-future moment with smartphones/tablets/laptops in that we will return to those solar-cell strips that our desktop calculators had all the way back in the late 70's and early 80's. Now that innovation was forward thinking ;)
     
  25. ShintaiDK

    ShintaiDK Lifer

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    That would be some interesting news when a battery blows up as usual...