MMO's are currently massively disappointing to an old UO player :(

[Cuda1447]

Perhaps this is a bit of a rant, but I am sure there are others out there that agree with me. I was an avid Ultima Online player back in it's hayday. I absolutely LOVED that game. The PvP and combat system in general was ingenious in my opinion. There really hasn't been anything like it since. I would rather play that game NOW, than any current MMO that has come out. Graphics are outdated as hell and no one plays anymore, but the system itself was so superior, it boggles my mind no one has emulated anything since then.


First of all, I loved that there was no leveling. You built a template with skills. You only had so many skills you could work up and you had to choose carefully.

Secondly, prior to the game being completely neutered, Outside of the guard zone cities you were ALWAYS in danger. The thing was, you knew the more dangerous areas and if you were not ok with that danger, you just didn't go. Traveling by foot from town to town was a huge risk. It made it so that you would literally avoid the roads in order to avoid conflict.

Now some might say that this was awful for people who just wanted to mine, or kill deer. It wasn't. They had options. They could stay close to town. Learn to be stealthy about it. Find a very secluded place away from town and hope no one stumbled upon them. Or use the community to keep themselves safe. Safety in numbers. Basically, they had to make choices. They couldn't just mindlessly do what they wanted to do without considering the rest of the world around them.


As far as combat. The system was fantastic. Thiefs were all over. They would turn grey, meaning anyone could attack them without consequences for a set period of time. People would purposely turn themselves gray to provoke others to attack them. This even happened in cities at times. It was an excellent cat/mouse game. Very strategic and tactical, but it also encouraged conflict between players.

Then of course you had the red guys. Basically, you knew these guys were evil. You also knew they were probably badasses. But, you could also gang up on them. If there were 6 of you and one red guy stumbles upon you at a dungeon... GET HIS ASS! But be careful, it might be a trap. While you are chasing him you might get flanked from his crew.

And let's talk about death. It actually made a fucking difference. Since it mattered, you didn't want to die. Every time you die, you lose your shit. ALL of it. Which means you have to spend more money getting more shit, or finding more shit. Hell, the experience of looting someone was one of the best in the game. I literally had a stealth character that I would run around with in high combat areas, basically scavenging the dead corpses, hoping I could blend in with the chaos, loot some bitches and get out. Soooo much fun.


And then of course you had guild combat and house combat. There is nothing better than having a 20 vs 20 massive guild fight at an enemies house. You show up, unannounced, hoping to catch some bitches training outside their house. Block the house entrance and attack. Stay to long and they might get the rest of their friends there. Then you have a made scrambles with people running everywhere, dropping like flies. Massive looting, resurrecting, running, hiding, killing. Literally you could have hours of fun just fighting another guild.

There is nothing compares to this. Fighting some NPC is lame. Having the ability to fight and kill, or be killed, by anyone, basically anywhere at anytime, for any reason. That's how MMO's should be.


I was just looking at some info on the new star wars MMO. I was highly disappointed with the PvP system. It seems like it is more of the same. So sad.


Maybe UO should just be re-released, old school rules with some updated graphics. Hell, I'd play with the same graphics if the game was released and had people playing it again.

 

[Merad]

There is nothing compares to this. Fighting some NPC is lame. Having the ability to fight and kill, or be killed, by anyone, basically anywhere at anytime, for any reason. That's how MMO's should be.

EVE-Online

The bottom line for better or worse is that most people do not want that type of MMO. EVE tends to have a fanatic fan base but still only has something like 350k subscribers. Compared to the millions playing WoW or SWTOR, that's nothing. Companies are going for what they think will bring them the most profits.

 

[Veliko]

And let's talk about death. It actually made a fucking difference. Since it mattered, you didn't want to die. Every time you die, you lose your shit. ALL of it. Which means you have to spend more money getting more shit, or finding more shit. Hell, the experience of looting someone was one of the best in the game. I literally had a stealth character that I would run around with in high combat areas, basically scavenging the dead corpses, hoping I could blend in with the chaos, loot some bitches and get out. Soooo much fun.

There is nothing compares to this. Fighting some NPC is lame. Having the ability to fight and kill, or be killed, by anyone, basically anywhere at anytime, for any reason. That's how MMO's should be.

Speak for yourself. That sounds incredibly annoying and tedious.

 

[power_hour]

Never played it but what you describes sounds like a tonne of fun. The hardcore in me (Played EVE for 5yrs mostly as a PVPer) says that would be a game to try.

But the father, workaholic, time stressed, wife agro'd person in me says the game might end badly for me too

I would still try the old school version if they ever brought it back. Had a buddy that played it for years and loved it like his third son.

 

[nickbits]

UO was only fun for the PKs/jerks

<---- jerk

 

[FallenHero]

EVE-Online

The bottom line for better or worse is that most people do not want that type of MMO. EVE tends to have a fanatic fan base but still only has something like 350k subscribers. Compared to the millions playing WoW or SWTOR, that's nothing. Companies are going for what they think will bring them the most profits.

if EVE didnt have such a steep entry curve into the game, more might try it. The the MASSIVE amount of time that needs to be invested to even compete is seriously the biggest drawback.

 

[BathroomFeeling]

UO was one hell of a game, and for a long time I too wanted to relive the golden days. But I realize now that even if they did bring back old-school UO (let's say with updated graphics), I would not stay for too long. I'd much rather it remain a good old memory, than a bastardized new one.

That said, the genre desperately needs a new open-ended MMO that shares many of the same aspects of UO, but also implements modern features. Open-ended gameplay, seamless world, sandbox customization, home ownership, the works. Modern features like social meta-gaming (EVE specializes in that I believe?), actual in-world impact of players, perhaps some level of pseudo-scripting allowing players further customization, and so on. Pre-scripted missions/quests are unfortunately part of the genre right now, so as with SWG, a number of them would have to be created for newbies, if only to get them to 'feel' as if there's a direction & point to the game.

Most importantly however, it needs warm bodies, lots of them. Though it may pain some of the more ardent fans of UO, any new game that gets released must also be able to cater to the masses. That means basic interfaces, gradual and simple learning curves, wide array of gameplay options (much like UO had), segregated lands (as any good UOer will remember of the over-mined hills of the city of Minoc, the good stuff is always outside the safety of the cities), and more. It's no fun playing against hardened & experienced adversaries over and over again. Some of the most entertaining and hilarious interactions came from hardcore players & inexperienced newbs running around (as was the case with the Galad the Luter comics).

Were such an MMO created, I would play the shit out of it.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

The only thing that sounds bad about that is the losing all your gear part. I preferred the old Rallos Zek 1 item + all coin on the body system. Naturally, no-drop/no-trade systems need to be abolished.

 

[Cuda1447]

The thing about losing all your gear was it sucked, but also wasn't a big deal. The game was an item based game. You had your GM made armor and weapon, that you could get relatively cheap from any blacksmith or vendor... some reagents (for magic) potions and pouches and that was it. Some people had a bit above average armor and weapons, but the thing is death was a certainty, it was a matter of when, not if. So you can take that shit out to the battlefield, but you're going to lose it eventually. *shrugs* Go kill someone else who has something like that. Or go back to your house and grab another set that you looted earlier today.


For me it was a constant struggle between looting and losing loot. Some days I'd come out ahead, some days behind. Sometimes I'd be in a real bind and wouldn't have very good armor/weapons to go to battle with. It wasn't the end of the world though, I could still compete. And I knew... just wait. Someones going to die soon. If I'm quick, I can take their shit.

 

[Cuda1447]

if EVE didnt have such a steep entry curve into the game, more might try it. The the MASSIVE amount of time that needs to be invested to even compete is seriously the biggest drawback.

I tried to get into eve, but you're right. There is a HUGE learning curve and steep time commitment. For adults, that's a big tough to swallow. I need something I can put an hour or two into a night, at most. Not something that requires 5+ hours a day.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

The thing about losing all your gear was it sucked, but also wasn't a big deal. The game was an item based game. You had your GM made armor and weapon, that you could get relatively cheap from any blacksmith or vendor... some reagents (for magic) potions and pouches and that was it. Some people had a bit above average armor and weapons, but the thing is death was a certainty, it was a matter of when, not if. So you can take that shit out to the battlefield, but you're going to lose it eventually. *shrugs* Go kill someone else who has something like that. Or go back to your house and grab another set that you looted earlier today.


For me it was a constant struggle between looting and losing loot. Some days I'd come out ahead, some days behind. Sometimes I'd be in a real bind and wouldn't have very good armor/weapons to go to battle with. It wasn't the end of the world though, I could still compete. And I knew... just wait. Someones going to die soon. If I'm quick, I can take their shit.

I never played UO but I'm guessing it wasn't that hard to get gear worthy of fighting in? I haven't yet played ToR but at least in EQ, getting high level raid gear takes a long time...each raid encounter would drop like 3 items, and there might be 7-10 raid encounters per expansion that dropped worthy gear, and they'd have a 6-7 day lockout timer. So that's like 21 items per week for a usual raid force of around 50 people who have like 20 item slots per character, and that's not even factoring in loots that rot because they weren't needed/wrong class/ everyone already had one.

 

[Merad]

The only thing that sounds bad about that is the losing all your gear part.

Games like that aren't for players who are obsessed with having "the best". A game with a player driven economy has to have a way to remove items from the game, or the economy collapses.

Most people learn to make do with average to above average gear to minimize their losses. A few people who get filthy rich in-game will drop tons of money on "the best," then cry bitter tears when they (sooner or later) lose it all.

 

[Cuda1447]

I never played UO but I'm guessing it wasn't that hard to get gear worthy of fighting in? I haven't yet played ToR but at least in EQ, getting high level raid gear takes a long time...each raid encounter would drop like 3 items, and there might be 7-10 raid encounters per expansion that dropped worthy gear, and they'd have a 6-7 day lockout timer. So that's like 21 items per week for a usual raid force of around 50 people who have like 20 item slots per character, and that's not even factoring in loots that rot because they weren't needed/wrong class/ everyone already had one.

That game wasn't about the items. They mattered, to a certain extent... but you'd be fine with average quality stuff, which was relatively easy to get. Gold was more important than anything else. Gold would be spent on real estate (UO had a great real estate market) reagents for magic, which could become quite expensive, rare items/collectibles to put in your house etc...

 

[Arglebargle]

I posit you've played the 'old fart' card, while wearing nostalgia goggles.

My experiance was far different: I watched friends playing these early MMOs and thought they generally sucked. Watching them play kept me out of MMOs for years.

It's a niche playstyle, nothing wrong with that. Some aspects are interesting, but others would still keep me from playing.

Perhaps you might be interested in the upcoming MMO Salem. It even has perma-death!
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/press/2011/2/salem-free-to-play-mmorpg-game-officially-announced

 

[BathroomFeeling]

I never played UO but I'm guessing it wasn't that hard to get gear worthy of fighting in?

Yes. Crafted armor and weapons initially weren't...trustworthy. Problem was they looked like any store bought stuff or worn-out junk loot from NPCs/monsters. It required a professional Item Identifier to confirm what you had was the real deal... by that I mean Grandmaster crafted stuff. It wasn't until the craft-naming change, as well as the implementation of Trammel (vast safe areas for newbs), thereby increasing metal ingot availability, that use of crafted items really took off. Combined with inflation, prices for full sets of armor and weapons eventually didn't matter to people, and so they became easy to come by. They were decent, but not the best. The best are always dropped loot. No one wanted to use those however, as repairing anything in the game, wears it out some. Better to use disposables like Grandmaster crafted stuff.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Yes. Crafted armor and weapons initially weren't...trustworthy. Problem was they looked like any store bought stuff or worn-out junk loot from NPCs/monsters. It required a professional Item Identifier to confirm what you had was the real deal... by that I mean Grandmaster crafted stuff. It wasn't until the craft-naming change, as well as the implementation of Trammel (vast safe areas for newbs), thereby increasing metal ingot availability, that use of crafted items really took off. Combined with inflation, prices for full sets of armor and weapons eventually didn't matter to people, and so they became easy to come by. They were decent, but not the best. The best are always dropped loot. No one wanted to use those however, as repairing anything in the game, wears it out some. Better to use disposables like Grandmaster crafted stuff.

Did armor not show its stats or something? Or it had the same stats and low quality armor would break sooner?

 

[Nebor]

UO wasn't about gear. The very best weapons in the game (silver whatever of vanquishing) were rare, but not by today's MMO standards. You could buy one from another player with less than a day's earnings (from adventuring, or crafting items to sell to NPCs.)

 

[Balt]

Old school UO was the closest thing to Hobbes' state of nature that I have ever witnessed.

 

[Nebor]

Yes. Crafted armor and weapons initially weren't...trustworthy. Problem was they looked like any store bought stuff or worn-out junk loot from NPCs/monsters. It required a professional Item Identifier to confirm what you had was the real deal... by that I mean Grandmaster crafted stuff. It wasn't until the craft-naming change, as well as the implementation of Trammel (vast safe areas for newbs), thereby increasing metal ingot availability, that use of crafted items really took off. Combined with inflation, prices for full sets of armor and weapons eventually didn't matter to people, and so they became easy to come by. They were decent, but not the best. The best are always dropped loot. No one wanted to use those however, as repairing anything in the game, wears it out some. Better to use disposables like Grandmaster crafted stuff.

GM Tags were around for a long time before Trammel broke the game.

I remember one time this thief near the Liche Lord room was watching me killing Liches with a silver battle axe of vanquishing. He had item IDed my axe while I had it equipped. Then waited until I drank a potion, and hit steal, target last item and snatched it out of my pack during the 2 seconds it takes to drink a potion. Before I realized what had happened, he recalled away. It was an exploit, sure, but it was the kind of thing you learned to live and deal with in UO. The gods smiled on me though, and when I picked a bank to recall to, it was the jungle island one (Magencia I think?) and there the little rat was, using the bank. I snagged a silver halberd of vanquishing out of my bank box and killed him before he knew what was happening. Lo and behold, my battle axe was still on him.

Man, I have so many fond memories of UO. Even the times you died were awesome stories sometimes. Moongates opening in dungeons with reds pouring out, noobs running the opposite direction screaming PKS!!!! while they tried to recall. /sigh

 

[Skott]

Few people would want to play a game where when they die they lose all their stuff. That is why they are a thing of the past. You should know that by now.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

GM Tags were around for a long time before Trammel broke the game.

I remember one time this thief near the Liche Lord room was watching me killing Liches with a silver battle axe of vanquishing. He had item IDed my axe while I had it equipped. Then waited until I drank a potion, and hit steal, target last item and snatched it out of my pack during the 2 seconds it takes to drink a potion. Before I realized what had happened, he recalled away. It was an exploit, sure, but it was the kind of thing you learned to live and deal with in UO. The gods smiled on me though, and when I picked a bank to recall to, it was the jungle island one (Magencia I think?) and there the little rat was, using the bank. I snagged a silver halberd of vanquishing out of my bank box and killed him before he knew what was happening. Lo and behold, my battle axe was still on him.


Man, I have so many fond memories of UO. Even the times you died were awesome stories sometimes. Moongates opening in dungeons with reds pouring out, noobs running the opposite direction screaming PKS!!!! while they tried to recall. /sigh

What were moongates? That sounds interesting...

 

[Nebor]

What were moongates? That sounds interesting...

A teleportation portal enabling groups to rapidly travel anywhere in the world.

Also if you could open a gate to a busy bank and lure a dragon into it, hilarity would ensue.

 

[imaheadcase]

I know many don't touch on this, but the reason you don't see lots of awesome MMO anymore is because they can't do it because the ideas are actually owned by other companies.

You will NEVER see a DAOC2 for example because the idea is held my EA now.

Its very hard for any developer anymore to infuse millions into a game without knowing its going to succeed. That is why they all play the safe route.

The Free to play concept and massive publisher concept doomed it.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

A teleportation portal enabling groups to rapidly travel anywhere in the world.

Also if you could open a gate to a busy bank and lure a dragon into it, hilarity would ensue.

You could have NPCs travel through them? Now THAT is awesome.

Just like the Battlefield series is dead, I guess the off-rails MMO is dead. I would have loved to have done that.

The closest thing I've ever seen was when that DoT off some Convorteum raid got spread all over by someone who gated with it still on them, and I understand people even logged out with it on and server transferred to spread it LOL.

And something similar happened in WoW too, in fact I think one of them was done on purpose to copy the other, I don't know dates though.

 

[RavenSEAL]

Few people would want to play a game where when they die they lose all their stuff. That is why they are a thing of the past. You should know that by now.

This^

Working for 50-80 levels towards something and then loosing all your stuff because someone was being a douche is something that'd just make people...well, not wanna play.