[MMO] World of Tanks

Page 250 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
What are you talking about? I am asking is it really difficult to write code so the top tanks on one side arent mediums vs the others heavies. It is a legitimate complaint, not a whine. The MM shouldnt be so stupid as to equate tier 8 mediums with tier 8 heavies and call it even.
Again...player skills..I see meadium do a number on heavies time and time again...due to the player knowning how to operate the tank..and use it forces and avoid it's weaknesses...again, I refer to player skills.
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,601
5
76
Again...player skills..I see meadium do a number on heavies time and time again...due to the player knowning how to operate the tank..and use it forces and avoid it's weaknesses...again, I refer to player skills.
Yeah i see the side with the mediums win quite often actually.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,065
498
126
Again...player skills..I see meadium do a number on heavies time and time again...due to the player knowning how to operate the tank..and use it forces and avoid it's weaknesses...again, I refer to player skills.
That doesnt address my issue at all. Player skills is after the fact. How a match maker thinks having 3 tier 8 mediums vs 3 tier 8 heavies at the top is reasonable is ridiculous.

The side with 3 mediums is giving up an avg of 114 damage per shot, 52 penetration, and 600 total hitpoints. That doesnt even factor in armor benefits from being heavy. From a MM perspective which is crunching numbers that should never happen.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
That doesnt address my issue at all. Player skills is after the fact. How a match maker thinks having 3 tier 8 mediums vs 3 tier 8 heavies at the top is reasonable is ridiculous.

The side with 3 mediums is giving up an avg of 114 damage per shot, 52 penetration, and 600 total hitpoints. That doesnt even factor in armor benefits from being heavy. From a MM perspective which is crunching numbers that should never happen.
So you are saying the heavies always win?
If not you "complain" is invalid.

I guess I broke the rules of the your "WoT-universe" when I killed a T95 in my VK2801 singlehanded...because BIGGER TANK = BETTER...right?
(got behind the fucker, 1 shot tracks, 1 shot rearhull...rinse repeat...BOOM)

Again:
player skill > type of tank
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,065
498
126
So you are saying the heavies always win?
If not you "complain" is invalid.

I guess I broke the rules of the your "WoT-universe" when I killed a T95 in my VK2801 singlehanded...because BIGGER TANK = BETTER...right?
(got behind the fucker, 1 shot tracks, 1 shot rearhull...rinse repeat...BOOM)

Again:
player skill > type of tank
You are ignoring my point of view all together and blabbing about player skill. The MM cant possibly take into account player skill. So how the hell would it think pitting those three at the top is equal? I dont give a rats ass how your skill level is as the MM is simply running an algorithm. So how could it possibly believe one side giving up that much is equal?
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
You are ignoring my point of view all together and blabbing about player skill. The MM cant possibly take into account player skill. So how the hell would it think pitting those three at the top is equal? I dont give a rats ass how your skill level is as the MM is simply running an algorithm. So how could it possibly believe one side giving up that much is equal?
You know what the MM does?
In details and in the nitty-gritty code
Please share.


Otherwise...you are wasting my time with speculation.

Again:
Player skill > Tank type
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,065
498
126
You know what the MM does?
In details and in the nitty-gritty code
Please share.


Otherwise...you are wasting my time with speculation.

Again:
Player skill > Tank type
So in other words you are trolling now. Kk move along please since you dont want to address the difference in firepower and HP. The numbers dont make any sense at all when it comes to fairly matching teams.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
So in other words you are trolling now. Kk move along please since you dont want to address the difference in firepower and HP. The numbers dont make any sense at all when it comes to fairly matching teams.
No you are...you made a claim about what the MM does.
I request documentionfor said claim.
You cannot deliver..and call me a troll.

I am not the only one, who SUSPECTS that the MM is doing more than meets the eye:

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/36414-is-the-game-playing-with-loaded-dice/

Notice the word "SUSPECTS"...as I do not know.

Unlike your claim :whiste:
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
The game is already stale of 15v15 (granted they might finally add 2 new modes next update). I *like* the different team make-ups. Who the hell wants a duplicate team composition each and every time?

Now, the gripes I get in MM is when one side gets all the platoons (which is MINDBLOWINGLY overwhelming), when it tosses an excess of tier 8's to the enemy 7's (why can't the MM at least balance out tiers), and when there are more than 3 arty per side.

I prefer matches with arty as it minimizes where people can camp. Without arty, then people tend to camp all over the place. Also, arty allows the team that lost its idiot top tier tanks to compete against the top tiers.

...

Oh, and I had a fun series of losses over the weekend. I did 8k damage in my jag tiger and we lost. I got 9 kills in my MS1 and lost. I damaged 12 different tanks in my E100 and lost (6k damage). But then in a clan war, I played my 261, I ran out of ammo including the 2 AP shells for TD mode (made both count on an E100 and 110)... did 9k damage, got confederate... and drew.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,065
498
126
No you are...you made a claim about what the MM does.
I request documentionfor said claim.
You cannot deliver..and call me a troll.

I am not the only one, who SUSPECTS that the MM is doing more than meets the eye:

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/36414-is-the-game-playing-with-loaded-dice/

Notice the word "SUSPECTS"...as I do not know.

Unlike your claim :whiste:
I havent made any claims. I am asking a question about how it could possibly believe those are fair? All I have got from you is trolling about skill>tank type.

That post is an interesting take on the situation and acknowledges my complaint. He uses 3 KVs vs 3 Shermans as his example of MM failing to pit fair teams.
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
Oh case in point. On a semi failed platoon countdown, I was in my 50-120 and clan mates were in 3 bats on the opposite side in campinova. We decided to rush the base and succeeded. I think we lost 3 tanks and even arty came across. As the defending arty kept resetting base, the 3 bats and 13-90 appear in our base and begin to cap. I *warn* our team that I am going to light them up and they need to rain death on the bats. I go steaming across, smack one bat on the run and kill it. NOBODY on our team even rotated their turrets. Nobody shot at our base. We lost.

3 bats and a 13-90 won the game when we had 12 tanks on their base.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,065
498
126
The game is already stale of 15v15 (granted they might finally add 2 new modes next update). I *like* the different team make-ups. Who the hell wants a duplicate team composition each and every time?

Now, the gripes I get in MM is when one side gets all the platoons (which is MINDBLOWINGLY overwhelming), when it tosses an excess of tier 8's to the enemy 7's (why can't the MM at least balance out tiers), and when there are more than 3 arty per side.

I prefer matches with arty as it minimizes where people can camp. Without arty, then people tend to camp all over the place. Also, arty allows the team that lost its idiot top tier tanks to compete against the top tiers.

...

Oh, and I had a fun series of losses over the weekend. I did 8k damage in my jag tiger and we lost. I got 9 kills in my MS1 and lost. I damaged 12 different tanks in my E100 and lost (6k damage). But then in a clan war, I played my 261, I ran out of ammo including the 2 AP shells for TD mode (made both count on an E100 and 110)... did 9k damage, got confederate... and drew.
I think the platooning and balancing out further down the line is all part of the same issue. Their MM is funky and doesnt work correctly when it comes to pitting fair teams a noticeable % of the time.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
With an equal amount of player skill, the side with the more heavies WILL win. You don't see people scrunging up 12 T-54s (plus 3 arty) in clan wars for a reason. A team with some situational awareness will always say "hey they got 5 mediums, lets see where they go". I've had MANY games where we had 2-3 heavies stop a whole wolfpack, and they get decimated VERY easily. Tier 9 medium guns will bounce on frontal shots, but the heavy tanks won't.

Mediums are rated lower on the scale with the MM. For example, if you both have 4 tier 9s (your team have 1 tier 9 heavy and 3 tier 9 medium), you will most likely see a lot more tier 8 heavies or TDs. Not that it means jack diddily squat but that's how the MM works.

Of course, if you're talking about "LOLPUBS" then it really doesn't matter. The side with the better driver wins.
 

Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
I use the XVM mod and I do see that player "skill" as measured by win rates is somewhat balanced...at least to an eyeballing of the teams before each battle.
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
I use the XVM mod and I do see that player "skill" as measured by win rates is somewhat balanced...at least to an eyeballing of the teams before each battle.
*tap tap tap* is my sarcasm meter broken?

B/c if it isn't, you're the *only* person I've ever seen express this sentiment.
 

Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
*tap tap tap* is my sarcasm meter broken?

B/c if it isn't, you're the *only* person I've ever seen express this sentiment.
Install it yourself. You will see that the vast majority of the players are rated red, which appears to be mostly based on win ratio, but also a little based on "efficiency." In most games, there might be an average of 2-4 green players, and they are actually balanced among the teams in most cases. When there are purple players (best), they are also balanced among the teams.

None of this means much to to the win/loss for that specific game, but I'm guessing that the MM is intentionally placing winning player with losers.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
Install it yourself. You will see that the vast majority of the players are rated red, which appears to be mostly based on win ratio, but also a little based on "efficiency." In most games, there might be an average of 2-4 green players, and they are actually balanced among the teams in most cases. When there are purple players (best), they are also balanced among the teams.

None of this means much to to the win/loss for that specific game, but I'm guessing that the MM is intentionally placing winning player with losers.
That is my idea too.
But the numbers can lie at times...I have seen what looked like 2 equal teams(on paper)...but the match itself....totally one-sided.

Thus is that chance element...hard to make a "perfect" MM...that makes EVERYONE happy.
 

LurkerPrime

Senior member
Aug 11, 2010
962
0
71
That is my idea too.
But the numbers can lie at times...I have seen what looked like 2 equal teams(on paper)...but the match itself....totally one-sided.

Thus is that chance element...hard to make a "perfect" MM...that makes EVERYONE happy.
Its always going to have randomness associated with it. An arty could get a lucky first hit and knock out an enemy tier 10 in the first minute of the game. That throws everything out of whack, especially if there is only one per side.

Also I have personally seen teams fulls of mediums decimate heavies. Usually if the heavies are smart though, they just hunker down and rape the mediums while they try to advance. The reasons you dont see 12 T-54s in clan wars is that they dont have tier 10 mediums. If they did, you would probably see some. Right now the closest to a tier 10 medium is the IS-7.
 

Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
The only time I believe the XVM stats is when I see a platoon of purple names on one team, without something equivalent on the other side. Anything less than that is a crapshoot. However, almost every time I see something like that, I see a similar platoon on the other side. The MM has to be considering this.

One thing we know that the MM doesn't look at (much) - tank type and tank size. We've all seen games with 8-10 Type 59's on one side and 1 on the other, or one team has 8 TD's and the other team has none. My guess is that the MM tries to balance the player "skill" much more than balance tank types.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Problem is even if the win % is somewhat even, they might not be driving the top tiered vehicles which make it worthless. Too many times I see a guy on the top with a 40% win rate and I just groan. (pershing the other day has a 35% win rate. THIRTY FIVE!!! Didn't know it went that low!!! He got ONE lucky shot in at the end of the game that I thought we lost because he was completely worthless. Guy lost over 1k hp to a hellcat that had 135 hp left.)

Example: A PIV is NOT going to have an easy time against a KV-3 no matter how good you are. Let's say the guy in the KV-3 has a 40% win rate and the PIV is awesome at 60%. You still need to hit the KV-3 like 20 fucking times to kill it, and the KV-3 only needs 2 good shots.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
Problem is even if the win % is somewhat even, they might not be driving the top tiered vehicles which make it worthless. Too many times I see a guy on the top with a 40% win rate and I just groan. (pershing the other day has a 35% win rate. THIRTY FIVE!!! Didn't know it went that low!!! He got ONE lucky shot in at the end of the game that I thought we lost because he was completely worthless. Guy lost over 1k hp to a hellcat that had 135 hp left.)

Example: A PIV is NOT going to have an easy time against a KV-3 no matter how good you are. Let's say the guy in the KV-3 has a 40% win rate and the PIV is awesome at 60%. You still need to hit the KV-3 like 20 fucking times to kill it, and the KV-3 only needs 2 good shots.
Not really, just play the PzIV strength: Very accurate sniper.

In a PzIV, with periscope, 100% crew with 2 minor qalifications I have often tracked much bigger tanks and chewed my way through them..untill they go boom.

I love tracking from afar in the PzIV...the long 75mm is a sweet gun and it can pen a KV3 from the fron, just aim a bit to the rigt of the drivers...weakspot, surprise many KV-3 tankers when they get penned there ;)

Again..player skills determines how they play their tanks....and to think the PzIV is a slugger/brawler is doing it wrong ;)
 

Fire&Blood

Platinum Member
Jan 13, 2009
2,331
16
81
So after 200 matches, T25/2 is a bad joke. Can't remember the last time either the turret or the hull bounced and arty will easily 1shot this thing. HP count is rather low, it catches fire easily and the turret is slow and jams a lot. Like it's German or something. But the win rate is 56%, before I looked I would have sworn it's in the 30% range, survival ratio 32%.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
So after 200 matches, T25/2 is a bad joke. Can't remember the last time either the turret or the hull bounced and arty will easily 1shot this thing. HP count is rather low, it catches fire easily and the turret is slow and jams a lot. Like it's German or something. But the win rate is 56%, before I looked I would have sworn it's in the 30% range, survival ratio 32%.
Sounds almost like the Pz38Na...horrible, horrible tank.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Not really, just play the PzIV strength: Very accurate sniper.

In a PzIV, with periscope, 100% crew with 2 minor qalifications I have often tracked much bigger tanks and chewed my way through them..untill they go boom.

I love tracking from afar in the PzIV...the long 75mm is a sweet gun and it can pen a KV3 from the fron, just aim a bit to the rigt of the drivers...weakspot, surprise many KV-3 tankers when they get penned there ;)

Again..player skills determines how they play their tanks....and to think the PzIV is a slugger/brawler is doing it wrong ;)
Believe me, I know how to use a PZIV but you're missing the point of the post, which is about the MM.

The MM doesn't match player's tier and their win rate, so you can be stuck with a bunch of tier 5s that are awesome players with 30% limpdicks as your tiers 8s... while the other team has it the other way around. Guess which team usually wins?

Point is no matter how good your low tier tank is, you only have so much margin of error. If you can kill a tier 7 alone in your PZIV, awesome. Chances of that happening are slim to none though. No matter how awesome you are with a PzIV, someone needs to only pop you once or twice and you're dead.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Dannar26 PC Games 28
shortylickens PC Games 4

ASK THE COMMUNITY