MLB Fans, why do so many fans today feel that steals and walks are irrelevant stats?

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
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ya ya ya, i know, "chicks dig the long ball"

but seriously, that's chicks, do honest young baseball fans today really believe walks and steals are irrelevant?

the only way you can argue bonds ISN'T the MVP of the NL this season is to dismiss walks as a significant baseball statistic.

amazing.
 

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
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Are there any base stealers these days that can generate excitement like Rickey Henderson? (Edit: I only know of Jose Reyes, and maybe Soriano (tho' he's a longball hitter also) that come close, bit Reyes is constantly injured though)

I think people dismiss walks in Bonds case because they're just haters of the guy, since his stats are just amazing.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Why do you say people think they are irrelevant? The thing with Bonds is that he doesn't work walks, he's handed them on a silver platter. That's only an achievment on his part because of his amazing prowess as a hitter.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Why do you say people think they are irrelevant? The thing with Bonds is that he doesn't work walks, he's handed them on a silver platter. That's only an achievment on his part because of his amazing prowess as a hitter.

in other words, he earned them because of how well he hits when he's pitched to, either way, his walks contribute to his teams success.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: isasir
Are there any base stealers these days that can generate excitement like Rickey Henderson? (Edit: I only know of Jose Reyes, and maybe Soriano (tho' he's a longball hitter also) that come close, bit Reyes is constantly injured though).

Ever see Carl Crawford play? The guy is an amazing baserunner.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Why do you say people think they are irrelevant? The thing with Bonds is that he doesn't work walks, he's handed them on a silver platter. That's only an achievment on his part because of his amazing prowess as a hitter.

in other words, he earned them because of how well he hits when he's pitched to, either way, his walks contribute to his teams success.

Yes, that's true. But that's why people don't give it as much credit. He doesn't have to work for the walk.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Jeter beat the blue jays by drawing a key walk yesterday (well, the blue jays are hardly a threat to 'win' anything, but he did draw a key walk to change the outcome of the game).
 

isasir

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2000
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: isasir
Are there any base stealers these days that can generate excitement like Rickey Henderson? (Edit: I only know of Jose Reyes, and maybe Soriano (tho' he's a longball hitter also) that come close, bit Reyes is constantly injured though).

Ever see Carl Crawford play? The guy is an amazing baserunner.

No. What team is he on?
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Jeter beat the blue jays by drawing a key walk yesterday (well, the blue jays are hardly a threat to 'win' anything, but he did draw a key walk to change the outcome of the game).

And the day before he stole 2nd and then 3rd and scored the game-winning run.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: isasir
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: isasir
Are there any base stealers these days that can generate excitement like Rickey Henderson? (Edit: I only know of Jose Reyes, and maybe Soriano (tho' he's a longball hitter also) that come close, bit Reyes is constantly injured though).

Ever see Carl Crawford play? The guy is an amazing baserunner.

No. What team is he on?
Devil Rays, which might explain why he is not so well-known.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Why do you say people think they are irrelevant? The thing with Bonds is that he doesn't work walks, he's handed them on a silver platter. That's only an achievment on his part because of his amazing prowess as a hitter.

in other words, he earned them because of how well he hits when he's pitched to, either way, his walks contribute to his teams success.

Yes, that's true. But that's why people don't give it as much credit. He doesn't have to work for the walk.

i've heard the opposite argument made as well, bonds is lazy because he doesn't swing at balls out of the K zone.

there are many ways to hate i guess. fact is, a high percentage of his walks are unintentional and if you are going to knock someone for the Intentional BB's talk about other teams managers and pitchers. it's not bonds fault.

as to his swinging at bad pitches, he's at 25 k's and 180 walks. i'm guessing 1/2 his walks are intentional, meaning there where mb 80 walks he had a shot at swinging at, of the 80, if he swung at bad pitches let's say he got hits on 10%, struck out 30%, ground out 10%, flied out 10% and was walked the other 40%, that means he still has 36 walks, 9 more hits (one of which would be a HR) and his ba would go down like from .367 to like .340

would that make him less of an MVP or more?
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
i've heard the opposite argument made as well, bonds is lazy because he doesn't swing at balls out of the K zone.

there are many ways to hate i guess. fact is, a high percentage of his walks are unintentional and if you are going to knock someone for the Intentional BB's talk about other teams managers and pitchers. it's not bonds fault.

as to his swinging at bad pitches, he's at 25 k's and 180 walks. i'm guessing 1/2 his walks are intentional, meaning there where mb 80 walks he had a shot at swinging at, of the 80, if he swung at bad pitches let's say he got hits on 10%, struck out 30%, ground out 10%, flied out 10% and was walked the other 40%, that means he still has 36 walks, 9 more hits (one of which would be a HR) and his ba would go down like from .367 to like .340

would that make him less of an MVP or more?

Hey, I think the guy is without a doubt the MVP. I'm just repeating what I hear other people say. As far as being lazy for not swinging at bad pitches, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Having a good eye is a big part of the game. It enables someone to ge a good pitch to hit because the pitcher may not want to walk the batter.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
i've heard the opposite argument made as well, bonds is lazy because he doesn't swing at balls out of the K zone.

there are many ways to hate i guess. fact is, a high percentage of his walks are unintentional and if you are going to knock someone for the Intentional BB's talk about other teams managers and pitchers. it's not bonds fault.

as to his swinging at bad pitches, he's at 25 k's and 180 walks. i'm guessing 1/2 his walks are intentional, meaning there where mb 80 walks he had a shot at swinging at, of the 80, if he swung at bad pitches let's say he got hits on 10%, struck out 30%, ground out 10%, flied out 10% and was walked the other 40%, that means he still has 36 walks, 9 more hits (one of which would be a HR) and his ba would go down like from .367 to like .340

would that make him less of an MVP or more?

Hey, I think the guy is without a doubt the MVP. I'm just repeating what I hear other people say. As far as being lazy for not swinging at bad pitches, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Having a good eye is a big part of the game. It enables someone to ge a good pitch to hit because the pitcher may not want to walk the batter.

:)

that's why i posted this here on ATOT, the baseball fans on ATOT seem much more knowledgeable than those that post on ESPN's boards. omg the stupidity over there is overwhelming.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Jeter beat the blue jays by drawing a key walk yesterday (well, the blue jays are hardly a threat to 'win' anything, but he did draw a key walk to change the outcome of the game).

And the day before he stole 2nd and then 3rd and scored the game-winning run.

I missed that!

Can we change this into a "Jeter is a sick-bad old school player who makes baseball fun again" thread?

An alternative suggestion would be "fvckin' middle-infielders - is there anything they can't do?". I'm a natural back-catcher, but watching good SS and 2B play is such a treat.
 

RedRooster

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
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OPS is king when it comes to stats(I realize it's a calculation). And you can't have it without a lot of walks, period.
Just shooting the sh!t, steals can sometimes be attributed to managerial decisions during the game, and for some people might not be as important when determining a player's worth. I think they're still important since the player still has to execute.

I'm a big fan of Bill James and everything he analyzes. And if he says Barry Bonds is one of the highest producing players over the last 10 years, then I'll tend to believe him. :)
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
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I don't know enough about baseball to have a strong opinion about this, but first off... it seems like a huge number of people now regard OBP as an important stat, which would discount the notion that walks are irrelevant.

Secondly, from watching various analysis, it seems like some people don't agree with bonds as the MVP because he can't do as many things as some others, or at least won't. Kind of like how some people would say that bill russell was a better player than wilt during the years when they competed with each other.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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It's so bad now that I saw a game this year where an attempted sac-bunt surprised the infield so much that it turned into a two-run infield single, with the batter ending up on third base after TWO throwing errors.

hahaha, American League baseball ROCKS!!
 
May 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
ya ya ya, i know, "chicks dig the long ball"

but seriously, that's chicks, do honest young baseball fans today really believe walks and steals are irrelevant?

the only way you can argue bonds ISN'T the MVP of the NL this season is to dismiss walks as a significant baseball statistic.

amazing.

Same type of thing happens in the NBA. "Great" players that can't do anything but dunk. Keep them from getting to the net and they're worthless.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
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Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
ya ya ya, i know, "chicks dig the long ball"

but seriously, that's chicks, do honest young baseball fans today really believe walks and steals are irrelevant?

the only way you can argue bonds ISN'T the MVP of the NL this season is to dismiss walks as a significant baseball statistic.

amazing.

Same type of thing happens in the NBA. "Great" players that can't do anything but dunk. Keep them from getting to the net and they're worthless.

Wha? The only person I can think of who qualifies for that is vince carter, who only is considered great by casual fans. Unless you count shaq whom you can't really keep from dunking anyway so we'll never know.
 

Meep

Junior Member
Jan 9, 2002
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The problem with Bonds is that he's become more of a "star" when it comes to his presence at the plate. He gets more balls called when he's batting for the same reason that MJ had a bunch of fouls called whenever he shot the ball. The umps treat him differently and everytime a borderline call is made, you can be sure Bonds will complain and next time things will be different.

Still though, Bonds is by far the best hitter in baseball today.
 

oogabooga

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2003
7,806
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I think walks are very important. Look at two nights ago. The giants drew a win cause they walked bonds in the top of the tenth which loaded up the bases... then walked AJ which brought in the game winning run.

I think i heard it best during the 2002 world series - "It's not the teams that can hit the homeruns that'll win championships. It's the teams that are willing to do the nitty-gritty no glory acts that set up opportunities to win that will be crowned champions."
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
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wasn't the last time the yankees actually won a world series the last season they had NO SINGLE player hit over 30 HR's in a season?