Mitsubishi is ending rear-projection TVs, ceases production of DLP and laser models

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JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
You have to take into account the price of these displays.

My 151 was upwards of 8k asking price, I think I ended up paying about 4.5-5k for it (back when I had money). A year later I scraped up a a remaining 600m for about 3K. compare that to what displays cost now for comparable quality. My brother got a 65" vt series for under 3K

The 151FD had an MSRP of $6.5K and the 141FD had an MSRP of $7K without the stand (the stand was an additional $500). I bought my 141FD in October of '08 as soon as it hit the store for a little over $7K (including the stand). Later on I went on to buy a 111FD. Compare that to the top of the line Panasonic series 65" V10 which sold for $4K (MSRP) at the same time. You could almost buy 2 65" V10's for the price of a 141FD. In the end, the Pioneer proved to be the better deal though, even at almost twice the price. If I bought the V10 back in the day, I would have felt like I wasted $4K rather than saved $3K.

Fast forward to today. Imagine if Pioneer was still in business and instead of comparing the latest Panasonic (VT50) to a 2008 model Pioneer, you'd be comparing a Panasonic 65VT50 to a 65" Pioneer plasma with infinite blacks with the same price difference, $4K for the Panasonic vs $6K-$7K for the Pioneer. For me, I'd take the Pioneer all day long at $6K.

And that's my point, we should be WELL past what's being offered today. It's just not part of Samsung and Panasonic's business model, and quite honestly, I can't say I blame them. Why bust your @ss and spend countless dollars on R&D to bring a state of the art display to market, when the average Joe Blow just wants a big crappy display at WalMart prices so he can brag to his friends, "hey, I got a big screen TV." :rolleyes: Whoop-da-dee-do!
 
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Zivic

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2002
3,505
38
91
The 151FD had an MSRP of $6.5K and the 141FD had an MSRP of $7K without the stand (the stand was an additional $500). I bought my 141FD in October of '08 as soon as it hit the store for a little over $7K (including the stand). Later on I went on to buy a 111FD. Compare that to the top of the line Panasonic series 65" V10 which sold for $4K (MSRP) at the same time. You could almost buy 2 65" V10's for the price of a 141FD. In the end, the Pioneer proved to be the better deal though, even at almost twice the price. If I bought the V10 back in the day, I would have felt like I wasted $4K rather than saved $3K.

Fast forward to today. Imagine if Pioneer was still in business and instead of comparing the latest Panasonic (VT50) to a 2008 model Pioneer, you'd be comparing a Panasonic 65VT50 to a 65" Pioneer plasma with infinite blacks with the same price difference, $4K for the Panasonic vs $6K-$7K for the Pioneer. For me, I'd take the Pioneer all day long at $6K.

And that's my point, we should be WELL past what's being offered today. It's just not part of Samsung and Panasonic's business model, and quite honestly, I can't say I blame them. Why bust your @ss and spend countless dollars on R&D to bring a state of the art display to market, when the average Joe Blow just wants a big crappy display at WalMart prices so he can brag to his friends, "hey, I got a big screen TV." :rolleyes: Whoop-da-dee-do!

They bought the tech off pioneer and release it bit by bit in their top end models. they have no other real competition so they can get their money's worth by only improving their models a little bit each generation.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
They bought the tech off pioneer and release it bit by bit in their top end models. they have no other real competition so they can get their money's worth by only improving their models a little bit each generation.

Panasonic bought the patents but aren't fully using them, not because hey don't want to, but most suspect because it is too costly to implement. It would force Panasonic to completely redesign their plasmas and put them in a price range that's not competitive.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
The image quality is not nearly as good. It's no surprise that they are being discontinued.

That is a horribly ignorant, misinformed statement. You will not find a better picture quality at anywhere near the price point these sold at, especially considering the size. They have no input delay so they're perfect for gaming and almost all of them are 3D compatible.

You should do some research before you post misinformation like this.

This is a sad day for the HDTV marketplace. Now, let's start a Mitsubishi deal thread so we can all find one cheap! :p

Oh and thanks for posting this thread OP, I would have never known.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,834
5,713
126
That is a horribly ignorant, misinformed statement. You will not find a better picture quality at anywhere near the price point these sold at, especially considering the size. They have no input delay so they're perfect for gaming and almost all of them are 3D compatible.

You should do some research before you post misinformation like this.

This is a sad day for the HDTV marketplace. Now, let's start a Mitsubishi deal thread so we can all find one cheap! :p

Oh and thanks for posting this thread OP, I would have never known.

you mean mitsubishi DLP or DLP in general?

my samsung DLP had A FUCKTON of input lag.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Newer Mitsubishi DLP's, obviously.

Honestly, I just don't see how that's possible. Ignoring any scaling that has to occur from a non-standard resolution for that TV (i.e. sending a 480p signal to a 1080p TV), the mirrors still have to flip for each color in the color wheel not to mention it requires passing through all 3-5 colors (more colors were added in the mid-2000s) on the wheel to actually create a single frame.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
Honestly, I just don't see how that's possible. Ignoring any scaling that has to occur from a non-standard resolution for that TV (i.e. sending a 480p signal to a 1080p TV), the mirrors still have to flip for each color in the color wheel not to mention it requires passing through all 3-5 colors (more colors were added in the mid-2000s) on the wheel to actually create a single frame.

You just can't let it go, can you? Fine, here is the actual information a simple search could have lead you to:

http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/

"The ultra-fast DLP chip has an unparalleled 8 microsecond pixel response time which is up to 1,000 times faster than nearly any other imaging technology. HDTVs powered by the DLP chip deliver a precise, razor-sharp picture, making it ideal for sports, action-packed or fast-moving scenes and gaming."


OK, so it may not be zero input lag but in a market where 5 MILLIseconds is the typical gaming cutoff for flat panel PC monitors, you can imagine how eye roll-worthy your posts are when you are trying to make some kind of stand on a technology that has an 8 MICROseconds response time. The conversion is:

1 millisecond = 1000 microseconds
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
You just can't let it go, can you?

It's not my job to do the work to back up your claims.

Also, you didn't even address both claims. Mirror speed means jack diddly when the color wheel isn't fast enough to address it. It doesn't take a physicist to realize that the wheel cannot match the mirror's speed (it would shatter well before that speed), so what speed does the wheel rotate at?

http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp.htm
Today, many DLP projectors being built for the home theater market incorporate a six-segment color wheel which has two sequences of red, green, and blue. This wheel still spins at 120Hz or 7200 RPM, but because the red, green, and blue is refreshed twice in every rotation rather than once, the industry refers to this as a 4x rotation speed. This further doubling of the refresh rate has again reduced the number of people who can detect them. Nevertheless it remains a problem for a number of viewers even today.
120Hz with two possible refreshes per cycle means you get about a 4ms refresh time.

:colbert:
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Or you go with laser and eliminate the color wheel ;)

I would love to have one of those. The wheel is not audible if you sit far enough away, but when I was sitting a bit close earlier today (working with a new HTPC build), I definitely could hear the whirring. Although, I'm not sure if that's the fan (for the bulb) or the wheel. :p

I guess I just need to hope that the LaserVue TVs go on clearance too! :)
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
120Hz with two possible refreshes per cycle means you get about a 4ms refresh time.

:colbert:

Or, less than the acceptable cutoff for a gaming monitor. So wtf are you talking about? Oh, it had some input delay, just not enough to notice but I figured I would troll this thread for no reason at all other than to be a complete fucking tool.

Well, mission accomplished.
 

Cpus

Senior member
Apr 20, 2012
345
0
0
both flatscreen and widescreen look the same to me; personally I like the widescreen more because you can put your stuff on it : cable box, xbox, ps3, dvd player....etc
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Or, less than the acceptable cutoff for a gaming monitor. So wtf are you talking about? Oh, it had some input delay, just not enough to notice but I figured I would troll this thread for no reason at all other than to be a complete fucking tool.

Well, mission accomplished.

For the latest hardware, yes. However, previous hardware would see a 2x-4x increase in latency depending on the technology involved. ...hence why my Samsung DLP has a "Game Mode." Keep in mind that I never stated that DLPs were terrible for gaming, but rather claims of "no input lag" sounded far too good to be true. My first thought was if that were true, why would people keep CRTs around for input lag testing? I own a Mitsubishi DLP (65C9)... why would I go and hate on them when I posted dismay over them being discontinued earlier in the thread?

Also, I really don't appreciate your tone. You might have forgotten which sub-forum you're in, but this isn't off-topic. Your personal attacks and swearing are not needed, and in fact, are typically infraction-worthy in the technical sub-forums* -- I know that first hand! :p Look, if you aren't willing to present evidence to back up your unsubstantiated claims, then quit making unsubstantiated claims.

EDIT:

* To avoid any possible misunderstandings... obviously, I'm not a mod, so this is just a bit of friendly advice!
 
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skriefal

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2000
1,418
3
81
both flatscreen and widescreen look the same to me; personally I like the widescreen more because you can put your stuff on it : cable box, xbox, ps3, dvd player....etc

Huh? Are you saying that you prefer RPTVs because you can place a cable box, center speaker, etc, on top? That's true of many older CRT-based RPTVs, but is not true of most DLP- or LCD-based RPTVs.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
EDIT:

* To avoid any possible misunderstandings... obviously, I'm not a mod, so this is just a bit of friendly advice!

I didn't insult you, just pointed out how completely useless your posts in this thread were. That is exactly why I never received an infraction. But thanks for nothing, again.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91
I would love to have one of those. The wheel is not audible if you sit far enough away, but when I was sitting a bit close earlier today (working with a new HTPC build), I definitely could hear the whirring. Although, I'm not sure if that's the fan (for the bulb) or the wheel. :p

I guess I just need to hope that the LaserVue TVs go on clearance too! :)

The Laservue color wheel isn't audible because it doesn't exist. They don't have them.

Awesome TV's.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
0
The best plasma today still can't match the black levels of a Pioneer plasma manufactured in 2008, which is sad. They're close, but no cigar. We should actually be at infinite black levels now (Pioneer demoed it in 2008), but no, instead we get 3D and goofy widgets. :mad:

Black levels are over rated anyways.....whatever
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91

I agree with the rolleyes comment somewhat, however: When is black, "black"?

Seriously, every year, we hear that the "blacks are better/deeper/inkier". Okay. But once you get it pitch, outer-space black, that's it, right? You can't get any blacker than "black", right? Anything else would truly be "almost black", right?

So are we there? How much blacker can they possibly get? And if it can be measured, does it really make a difference now? There can't be that much farther they can go.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
That sucks but they will still be on the used market for some time to come as well. Between me and my girlfriend we have 2 DLP 55" and one 50" LCD Projecion. All 3 were picked up used and the most I spent on any of them was $120 but they were all purchased non-working and then I fixed them. Yes LCD is better but the difference is negligible. They are also not one Wii remote swing away from being a paperweight.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
I agree with the rolleyes comment somewhat, however: When is black, "black"?

Seriously, every year, we hear that the "blacks are better/deeper/inkier". Okay. But once you get it pitch, outer-space black, that's it, right? You can't get any blacker than "black", right? Anything else would truly be "almost black", right?

So are we there? How much blacker can they possibly get? And if it can be measured, does it really make a difference now? There can't be that much farther they can go.

Black is black when there is zero light output, which Pioneer demoed back in 2008. Once absolute black is achieved, you can then move on to the next technical improvement which will be 4K. And after 4K comes 8K. The goal is to reproduce reality as accurately as possible. And once you get to the point where you can't tell you are looking through a window or looking at a TV, you can then say there is no more room for advancement. Until then, we've got a ways to go.
 

slag

Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
10,473
81
101
I would love to have one of those. The wheel is not audible if you sit far enough away, but when I was sitting a bit close earlier today (working with a new HTPC build), I definitely could hear the whirring. Although, I'm not sure if that's the fan (for the bulb) or the wheel. :p

I guess I just need to hope that the LaserVue TVs go on clearance too! :)

Honestly, what does it matter if the TV makes a small amount of whirring that you can only hear when sitting close? 99.999% of the TV shows we watch come with audio on a the same time the video does. Hell, my clock, htpc, and fish tank make more noise than the dlp in my man cave, not to mention the washer/dryer and water heater in the room next to the main living area in the basement. There's always going to be noises in your house.