Missouri Police Officer guns down unarmed 18 year old

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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
126
This doesn't help

http://usapolitics.thoughts.com/posts/the-kkk-calls-darren-wilson-a-hero

It's like some idiots are going out of their way to make him look like a racist....

....
Don't know whether this is valid or not but a St Louis radio station (KFNS-FM 100.7 FM, "TheViper")~snip~

Haven't seen any news sites confirming that yet but if the evidence indicates it (in this case a witness recanting previous statements) then Officer Wilson should go free.



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Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
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I see. And in your expert medical opinion, exactly what percentage of the time does someone who's received a punch to the eye die?

It's distraction as you use it.

What matters if Brown was a threat to Wilson. The punch indicates he was, what matters if Brown was charing Wilson when the fatal shot was fired.

The punch and die?, are you an idiot? Nobody is going from that punch in the car means Brown should have been killed. It means if he was then charging Wilson again later, that the threat was very real. Their is a pattern of hositilty from Brown that has emerged in the time leading up to the fatal shot.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
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Not only is he too far away to see the kind of detail required, but something like what is described as having happened to him (socket bone broken) might not show any outward sign at first. This is minutes after the injury was sustained.

You could have such a bone injury without much of anything visible on the skin, is my understanding.

The next day maybe there was a huge bruise around that area, or maybe not. I'm not sure if that's expected.

Perhaps if you were the other officer standing with him and you got right up to his face and looked, maybe part of his eye on one side was full of blood in the white area of the eye, and maybe some damage was visible close up to the flesh around the eye... but something like that wouldn't show up on that video.

Broken orbitals almost always result in heavy bruising. There are a lot of close to the surface blood vessels in the head/skull region.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
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It's distraction as you use it.

What matters if Brown was a threat to Wilson. The punch indicates he was, what matters if Brown was charing Wilson when the fatal shot was fired.

The punch and die?, are you an idiot? Nobody is going from that punch in the car means Brown should have been killed. It means if he was then charging Wilson again later, that the threat was very real. Their is a pattern of hositilty from Brown that has emerged in the time leading up to the fatal shot.

I was responding to a poster who seemed to be claiming that a punch to the eye was a life-threatening injury and was justification for killing Brown. If Wilson had time to get off six shots to Brown he also had time to get out of the way. Brown did not have to die.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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I was responding to a poster who seemed to be claiming that a punch to the eye was a life-threatening injury and was justification for killing Brown. If Wilson had time to get off six shots to Brown he also had time to get out of the way. Brown did not have to die.

You're an idiot. Wilson was outnumbered and allegedly injured. Six shots takes less than 10 seconds. That's not enough time to execute a retreat, especially while injured. Brown's death is his own fault.
 
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Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
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They are not "above the law." They are given weapons and the legal authority to use them if circumstances justify it. They are also given some immunities, by law, that are not available to laypeople. These are necessities in order that they can do their jobs. I think cops who intentionally commit crimes should absolutely be prosecuted, and they are. Where a use of force involves a judgment call, and their judgment is not obviously faulty, I think they should get the benefit of the doubt, and they do.

Here, if it's true Wilson had a fractured orbital socket and there are third-party witnesses describing Brown (who had undisputedly, moments earlier, committed a violent robbery) rushing toward Wilson after punching him in the face, I don't think he should be charged.

This, second paragraph specifically, sums up the idea of justified shooting in the case.

I don't see a single person justifying a fatal shooting of Brown absent what's being put as a scenario in that second paragraph. The arguments are about getting to the truth of that. We've got conflicting eyewitness reports and very heavy pressure from Crump and Co that are trying to move away from truth and simply present narrative. Excitable narrative, and they try to present it as often and malignantly towards Wilson as possible.

What we are getting from Crump and Co and some others, is excitable narratives, such as "Brown was clearly executed in the street" "Brown was shot unarmed and surrenduring". If you believe what they are sellign, or are suseptable to what they are selling you are going to be severly alarmed at this travesty. Problem is they are painting this picture not from the truth, but from what appears to be simply a desire to ignite and stir up peoples to fuel and drive narrative and control some outcomes. They've got the DOJ in, they are getting tons of media and are now protesting the existing prosecutor.

It's a recognizable pattern that is showing from these guys.
 
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
A broken eye socket is extremely painful and he wouldn't be walking around like that so casually without holding his eye in pain. Remember the woman who police broke her eye socket? She was screaming in pain. Trust me it is a very painful area of the eye. In addition yes it would be visible because any major trauma to the eye or nose causes immediate bruising and blood pooling. None of you know what the hell your talking about.

The world according to I'm not a doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Everyone reacts differently to trauma. My son had a compound fracture to his fibula and tibia last year. He walked off the field under his own power. The trainer thought it was a severe strain. We didn't know he had broken his leg until the next day when the doctors office took xrays.

IMG_0296.jpg
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
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It's distraction as you use it.

What matters if Brown was a threat to Wilson. The punch indicates he was, what matters if Brown was charing Wilson when the fatal shot was fired.

The punch and die?, are you an idiot? Nobody is going from that punch in the car means Brown should have been killed. It means if he was then charging Wilson again later, that the threat was very real. Their is a pattern of hositilty from Brown that has emerged in the time leading up to the fatal shot.

You mean "shots" as he was hit 6 times, I still don't understand why any modern police car does not have a dash-cam, hell, decent ones cam be had for around $60 nowadays, the incident recorded would have been definitive and you don't need to rely on witnesses and their possible motives for the version of what happened.
 

Knowing

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2014
1,522
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/14/uk-usa-missouri-shooting-prosecutor-idUKKBN0GE1LA20140814
McCulloch, 63, has held the top county prosecutor's job for 23 years and has promised an impartial investigation of Brown's death. But protesters say McCulloch, whose police officer father was killed in the line of duty when McCulloch was a child, should be removed from the case.

If protesters are going to object at every turn, why don't we just throw out the whole system and descend in to lawlessness with a good ol' fashioned hangin'?
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
You mean "shots" as he was hit 6 times, I still don't understand why any modern police car does not have a dash-cam, hell, decent ones cam be had for around $60 nowadays, the incident recorded would have been definitive and you don't need to rely on witnesses and their possible motives for the version of what happened.

The police car was parked sideways in the street, I seriously doubt a dash cam would have caught anything other than the incident that happened at/in the vehicle. I don't think it would have caught the actual shooting.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
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I was responding to a poster who seemed to be claiming that a punch to the eye was a life-threatening injury and was justification for killing Brown. If Wilson had time to get off six shots to Brown he also had time to get out of the way. Brown did not have to die.

Frankly I'd agree, but as I'd put it i'm sure id be in a minority. Cops should flee when appropriate rather than kill. Problem is this extremely dangerous for cops and it removes their control from out of control situations.

But it speaks more to law enforcement training and procedure. Wilson (all officers) are trained to take down serious threats. They aren't trained to flee.

If Brown is unarmed and charging, Wilson could have fled (or could he?, another problem). But Wilson isn't trained to flee, he's trained with that firearm to use it in a situation where a serious/credible threat endangers him.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
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The police car was parked sideways in the street, I seriously doubt a dash cam would have caught anything other than the incident that happened at/in the vehicle. I don't think it would have caught the actual shooting.

Seems to be a case where a camera on the officer could of helped. Unless it was disabled in the fight. Let's assume Wilson had one, and it caught everything, released to the public immediately....outcome could of been far different.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
126
You mean "shots" as he was hit 6 times, I still don't understand why any modern police car does not have a dash-cam, hell, decent ones cam be had for around $60 nowadays, the incident recorded would have been definitive and you don't need to rely on witnesses and their possible motives for the version of what happened.

Officers should be given the option to wear body cams. In this case the vehicle might have been facing the wrong way for a dashcam to record video evidence of the shooting. Body Cams are probably not much more expensive than dashcams and video evidence imho could have prevented all of the rioting.


Also these yahoos are not helping

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/kkk-raising-money-ferguson-police-001608487.html

A Missouri chapter of the Ku Klux Klan is planning a fundraiser this weekend for the Ferguson police officer who shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teen.
"All money will go to the cop who did his job against the Negro criminal," according to New Empire Knights of the KKK.

It's as if they're going out of their way to make Officer Wilson look racist.
:rolleyes:



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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
18,683
146
Officers should be given the option to wear body cams. In this case the vehicle might have been facing the wrong way for a dashcam to record video evidence of the shooting. Body Cams are probably not much more expensive than dashcams and video evidence imho could have prevented all of the rioting.


Also these yahoos are not helping

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/kkk-raising-money-ferguson-police-001608487.html



It's as if they're going out of their way to make Officer Wilson look racist.
:rolleyes:



.....

ugh, if Wilson and the department has any brains, they'll decline the KKK's money. What a shit show.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
1
0
There you are with the "unarmed" narrative again like so many others here who don't get that unarmed means jack shit when you fracture the eye socket of a police officer or even a private citizen.

unarmed does not equal not dangerous.

There is no proof of any orbital eye fracture only the prosecutor saying this. Once they put out a doctors report and an actual X-ray then and only then will I believe this. But the pictures I am seeing of this officer walking around the dead body as if he is in no pain whatsoever and no injury of bruising visible to his eye tells me this didn't happen.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Frankly I'd agree, but as I'd put it i'm sure id be in a minority. Cops should flee when appropriate rather than kill. Problem is this extremely dangerous for cops and it removes their control from out of control situations.

But it speaks more to law enforcement training and procedure. Wilson (all officers) are trained to take down serious threats. They aren't trained to flee.

If Brown is unarmed and charging, Wilson could have fled (or could he?, another problem). But Wilson isn't trained to flee, he's trained with that firearm to use it in a situation where a serious/credible threat endangers him.

Flee really?

So now streets should be run by people causing trouble, because in your world cops should run away.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Frankly I'd agree, but as I'd put it i'm sure id be in a minority. Cops should flee when appropriate rather than kill. Problem is this extremely dangerous for cops and it removes their control from out of control situations.

But it speaks more to law enforcement training and procedure. Wilson (all officers) are trained to take down serious threats. They aren't trained to flee.

If Brown is unarmed and charging, Wilson could have fled (or could he?, another problem). But Wilson isn't trained to flee, he's trained with that firearm to use it in a situation where a serious/credible threat endangers him.

Agreed. LEOs are put in extreme situations and I understand why they're trained in that way. It's just that we have far too many examples of not only criminals and suspects being killed unnecessarily but also of civilians being injured of killed by police gunfire.

My point being that being trained to retreat keeps unnecessary injuries or deaths to a minimum. Every officer-involved shooting pulls a LEO off of duty while the incident is investigated; retreating keeps more LEOs on duty.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
There is no proof of any orbital eye fracture only the prosecutor saying this. Once they put out a doctors report and an actual X-ray then and only then will I believe this. But the pictures I am seeing of this officer walking around the dead body as if he is in no pain whatsoever and no injury of bruising visible to his eye tells me this didn't happen.

Problem is the defense is not actively trying the case in the court of public opinion like the prosecution is. Or rather, the problem is that the prosecution is actively trying the case in the court of public opinion.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
There is no proof of any orbital eye fracture only the prosecutor saying this. Once they put out a doctors report and an actual X-ray then and only then will I believe this. But the pictures I am seeing of this officer walking around the dead body as if he is in no pain whatsoever and no injury of bruising visible to his eye tells me this didn't happen.

Adrenalin can do some crazy things to the body.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Flee really?

So now streets should be run by people causing trouble, because in your world cops should run away.

Where appropriate if it avoids having to kill yes. I realize it's a nearly or simply an impossible constraint, but i'm talking a more perfect world, not the world as it clearly exists today.

The real solution for the world as it exists is to bring the community together with LE outside of criminal activity instead of solely on the grounds of criminal activity. IMO.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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A broken eye socket is extremely painful and he wouldn't be walking around like that so casually without holding his eye in pain. Remember the woman who police broke her eye socket? She was screaming in pain. Trust me it is a very painful area of the eye. In addition yes it would be visible because any major trauma to the eye or nose causes immediate bruising and blood pooling. None of you know what the hell your talking about.

Then on top of all that he didn't go to the hospital till many, many hours later, in fact if I am correct it wasn't till the next day, and I imagine that was done on purpose to make it appear he had some sort of injury. I for one will be interested in seeing the actual doctor report and x ray.



This is what the report says and I call bullshit: According to a source from within the Prosecuting Attorney’s office, Wilson suffered an, “orbital blowout fracture to the eye socket,” which has been confirmed by the St. Louis County Police. The Pundit describes, “A blowout fracture is a fracture of one or more of the bones surrounding the eye and is commonly referred to as an orbital floor fracture.”

We aren't getting this info from a doctor but from the prosecuting attorneys office. Look at that video again, and look at the stills of the officer you would in fact see dark shades of bruising and swelling on his eye if this was the case, and none is visible. Nor do you see him acting as if he is in ANY PAIN.

The bruise would take a while to show, and the report we do have does indicate swelling. Not seeing any recognizable injury in the low res video taken immediately after, does not allow any conclusions to be drawn.

Orbital fractures vary in their severity.

Again, this crap is silly. Evidence of injury will be presented to the GJ if it exists. If it doesn't exist, then it can't be presented. Whatever the records from the hospital show, is what they show, and that's what the GJ will see.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
If Wilson had time to get off six shots to Brown he also had time to get out of the way.
Could you create and post a diagram, even if it's in Paint showing the proximity of the two with probable escape paths? A real bonus would be if it included the time for them to accelerate to their maximum capable speed on foot and the time it would take to travel the distance you indicate.

Thanks.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
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Agreed. LEOs are put in extreme situations and I understand why they're trained in that way. It's just that we have far too many examples of not only criminals and suspects being killed unnecessarily but also of civilians being injured of killed by police gunfire.

My point being that being trained to retreat keeps unnecessary injuries or deaths to a minimum. Every officer-involved shooting pulls a LEO off of duty while the incident is investigated; retreating keeps more LEOs on duty.

A valid question is weather Wilson had a taser issued to him and was it the type that fires darts. Really the PD is causing so much issue by not releasing a full incident report and then you've got those who are just plain criminals, most from out of the area looking to escalate the situation further so as to look for an opportunity to do some more looting, that's just so fucked up, if you think a cop unlawfully killed this man your disrespecting him and the rest of the citizens by showing up and pulling that shit, disgusting.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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There is no proof of any orbital eye fracture only the prosecutor saying this. Once they put out a doctors report and an actual X-ray then and only then will I believe this. But the pictures I am seeing of this officer walking around the dead body as if he is in no pain whatsoever and no injury of bruising visible to his eye tells me this didn't happen.

Whenever I got a black eye, the "black eye" took some time to show. Same for other bruises.

Sometimes you have a bruise show up, and you can't remember what caused it.