Misconceptions about JAVA

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
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JAVA is not Pure OO, it has primitives.


JAVA is not Multi platform like they would like to tout, Byte code compiled on IBM's compiler will not work on a SUN VM, SUN Byte code doesnt work the same on IBM and MS VM's as it does on their own.


JAVA is extremely inneffcient.



JAVA can have mmeory leaks, where code allocates memeory to handle different process, when the main process exits it cannot GC the forked Processes.



i see a lot of people talking up JAVA but i dont think youve actually worked with other stuff, its a decent language but it lacks in many respects.
 

AmigaMan

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Whats your point? You just here to bash Java? Or do you just wanna start a "My language is better than your language" flame war?


 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
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Java isn't so bad, actually, yet when I talk about a program being platform-independent, I mean that it's compliant to whatever standard has been created for the language the program is made in, so that its source can be compiled on any system and used with any OS without any problems.

BTW, if you really want to impress someone with such an anti-Java post, try at least to keep it free from typos :)
 

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
23,686
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im not anti-java nor will i take the time spell check every post i make, the reason i made the post is just to point out some facts, that people who post in this forum seem unaware of thats all.


i am language agnostic, i say use whatever solves the problem. but people seem to think that java is the end all be all of and they just need to know some more of the facts.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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<< Whats your point? You just here to bash Java? Or do you just wanna start a "My language is better than your language" flame war? >>




You accuse him of trying to start a flame war while trying to fan the embers? I did not see his post as anything but someone trying to inform others of some of the draw backs to JAVA. Of course, he could have provided more information, but it was definitely a good start and would help people know what to look for when deciding on which language to use for a project.

And if we really wanted to get down to a "my language has a bigger penis than your language" we all know C would win :p

Yes, the last part is my opinion and meant 100% tongue in cheek. Please lets not start a flame war kids. :)
 

bevancoleman

Golden Member
Jun 24, 2001
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Primitives arn't a bad thing, if you just want a couter is seems a bit silly to have an Integer object when you can use a int.

Java is fairly good in terms of cross platform, probably better than any other major language out there (excluding scripting languages like Perl).

C would be as portable but it's reliance on external libaries mean that you need them aviliable, you can still make portable apps but you need to be carefull in your choice of 3rd party libs and controls.

The only real complaint I have with java is it is slow, and Sun dosn't seem to consider that a problem (one of the math libaries went from C in Java 1.2 to java in 1.3, that sort of thing)
 

AmigaMan

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
3,644
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<< And if we really wanted to get down to a "my language has a bigger penis than your language" we all know C would win :p >>


Oh yeah? Well I have my bets placed on Lisp. My language is better than yours because I have more parenthesis'!

Anyways, I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I felt that his post was, in the way that it was worded. I think some people say that Java is the end all be all because that's all they know. For web development I'd definitely choose Java as that is all I know for web applications (plus I think it's better in this situation). If I needed to do a client/server app, I'd probably choose VB on the client with whatever code I needed on the server being in C/C++ or VB.

You just need to use the right tools for the job as any mechanic would say.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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<<

<< And if we really wanted to get down to a "my language has a bigger penis than your language" we all know C would win :p >>


Oh yeah? Well I have my bets placed on Lisp. My language is better than yours because I have more parenthesis'!

Anyways, I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I felt that his post was, in the way that it was worded. I think some people say that Java is the end all be all because that's all they know. For web development I'd definitely choose Java as that is all I know for web applications (plus I think it's better in this situation). If I needed to do a client/server app, I'd probably choose VB on the client with whatever code I needed on the server being in C/C++ or VB.

You just need to use the right tools for the job as any mechanic would say.
>>



And to know the right tools you need to know the pros and cons. He was giving us some cons. You have to know Ameesh a little better to realize that was definitely not a flame. I have seen him flame. It is a little better than this post, and his spelling gets better too. :p
 

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
23,686
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/nods to n0cmonkey


i seriously didnt mean this as a flame, but exactly what the title is, misconceptions. nothing more or less, i also never said pure OO is the best in fact i dont agree with that at all so the primitive thing was just a clarification not a bash.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,997
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The main reason I dislike Java is because you're forced to use OOP all the time, plus you can't build stand-alone executables which makes it slow and incompatible.
 

HigherGround

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2000
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<< i am language agnostic, i say use whatever solves the problem. but people seem to think that java is the end all be all of and they just need to know some more of the facts. >>



the facts you provide will not clarify anything for any potential Java programmers and are utterly useless to experienced users. In fact you provided some rather crude examples to illustrate the so called deficiencies of the language....



<< JAVA is not Pure OO, it has primitives. >>



If it didn't have non OO primitives, I'm sure you'll be screaming about that as well, just like some of you seem to be screaming about lack of pointers. If you really think you need them, maybe it's time to rethink your designs.



<< JAVA is not Multi platform like they would like to tout, Byte code compiled on IBM's compiler will not work on a SUN VM, SUN Byte code doesnt work the same on IBM and MS VM's as it does on their own. >>



Even if individual compilers produce a platform specific ports, it would still take minimal effort ( compared to C/C++ ) to port the code to other OSs/architectures.



<< JAVA is extremely inneffcient. >>



inefficient compared to what? If you are talking about automatic bound and type checking than I'll take that "inefficiency" as a benefit. How about slower context switching between threads ... yeah that one is definitly detrimental to the eantire language. If you meant the large footprint of the VMs than I'll agree, it's too large, but I learned to live with it. Swing has its own problems, but when faced with having to write GUI in X/GTK/Motif and than repeat the same exercise in Win32, I'll take Swing, thank you.



<< JAVA can have mmeory leaks, where code allocates memeory to handle different process, when the main process exits it cannot GC the forked Processes. >>



hmmm, that's a really frequent scenario ;) No matter how many special cases of GC failures you'll find I'll still take it as a huge benefit.

Java is not a language to end all languages, however in many instances it's design makes it an obvious choice. Would i implement a arithmetic entropy coder for real time platform in Java, of course not, but at the same time I wouldn't even think of reimplementing the front end software on different platforms in C to gain a few seconds in execution time ( something my users wouldn't notice anyway ). It's a problem specific decisions and the key is to know which tool suites which problem best.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
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<< JAVA is not Pure OO, it has primitives. >>



But it also has classes that map to those primitives (similar to C#'s mapping primitive types to a class, except that they're actually stored on the stack). I'd rather not suffer the performance consequences by using reference types for my primitives. OO purism is best left to acadedamia. If we all wanted pure OO, we'd be using Smalltalk.



<< JAVA is not Multi platform like they would like to tout, Byte code compiled on IBM's compiler will not work on a SUN VM, SUN Byte code doesnt work the same on IBM and MS VM's as it does on their own. >>



I haven't run into the above in my environment, so I can't comment.



<< JAVA is extremely inneffcient. >>



Relative to what, an efficient environment? What constitutes an efficient environment? Is C efficient? What about C++? To many environments, what you gain in productivity transcends the performance loss.



<< i see a lot of people talking up JAVA but i dont think youve actually worked with other stuff, its a decent language but it lacks in many respects. >>



Can't argue with you there. Java lacks in aspects as does C, C++, VB, C#, ad nauseum. I think some like to portray Java as the panacean language, but that just hasn't been the case. At any rate, I've been almost exclusively C# and .NET for at least the past year...
 

nateholtrop

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2000
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i work in a java shop and it seems to be able to handle everything the dev team throws at it.

nate
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
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<< i work in a java shop and it seems to be able to handle everything the dev team throws at it. >>



yes, but, "it works" is hardly a quantitative argument for Java :) Just because it can be done doesn't always mean it should, and it certainly doesn't mean it's a good solution.