Minority whip swan dives into the deep end of the hyperbole pool

[irwincur]

Even Durbin is saying that the Republican response is taking everything out of contex.

who cares what he has to say. Context is in the eye of the beholder, not the speaker. If he cared anything about context, he would have said it differently, or apologized and re-phrased - not that it would really matter at this point.

Durban just needs to live up to the monumental stupidity of his statement and be thankful that he is not a Republican - or he would be living on the streets by now.

 

[imported_Stratago]

Originally posted by: irwincur

Even Durbin is saying that the Republican response is taking everything out of contex.

who cares what he has to say. Context is in the eye of the beholder, not the speaker. If he cared anything about context, he would have said it differently, or apologized and re-phrased - not that it would really matter at this point.

Durban just needs to live up to the monumental stupidity of his statement and be thankful that he is not a Republican - or he would be living on the streets by now.

Context is not in the eye of the beholder. He wrote the speech to mean what he wanted it to mean, but when people take one or two sentences out of the speech and make conclusions about the whole thing it is wrong. If you read the speech you realize that the comments and conclusions the administration are making about his speech are totally unfounded and stupid, and he doesn't need to rephrase anything. I read the speech first before I read any news articles or forum posts about the subject, and the Repubs are totally off.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Stratago

He is saying that if you heard about this being done to prisoners you would think that the government holding these prisoners would have no concern for human beings, LIKE the Nazis, Soviets, or some other mad regime. But these actions have been done by the US. That is what he is saying and if you can't see it your an idiot.
When you call the left closed minded you better have an open mind yourself or you will come off as a blubbering fool.

Stratego.... my conversation with you is over. (Did you just use the word LIKE? Think about that for a second please)

Here are my exact words: "[Durbin] was saying that people could confuse what happened at Gitmo with Nazi and Soviet actions."

Do you understand English?

Obviously you are to illiterate to notice that you're repeating yourself for no other reason than to look dumb because you are arguing something I'm not even saying. Get it through your head full of mush, that I am totally and completely analyzing his words in relation to the context. I understand perfectly what he was saying.

Apparently there's no purpose in discussing this with you until you demonstrate a lone molecule of intelligence. I said everything crystal clear in my 06/17/2005 12:23 AM post. Read it again. Three times if you have to. If you can come back and say something relevant than do so. I won't hold my breath.

 

[imported_Stratago]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Stratago

He is saying that if you heard about this being done to prisoners you would think that the government holding these prisoners would have no concern for human beings, LIKE the Nazis, Soviets, or some other mad regime. But these actions have been done by the US. That is what he is saying and if you can't see it your an idiot.
When you call the left closed minded you better have an open mind yourself or you will come off as a blubbering fool.

Stratego.... my conversation with you is over. (Did you just use the word LIKE? Think about that for a second please)

Here are my exact words: "[Durbin] was saying that people could confuse what happened at Gitmo with Nazi and Soviet actions."

Do you understand English?

Obviously you are to illiterate to notice that you're repeating yourself for no other reason than to look dumb because you are arguing something I'm not even saying. Get it through your head full of mush, that I am totally and completely analyzing his words in relation to the context. I understand perfectly what he was saying.

Apparently there's no purpose in discussing this with you until you demonstrate a lone molecule of intelligence. I said everything crystal clear in my 06/17/2005 12:23 AM post. Read it again. Three times if you have to. If you can come back and say something relevant than do so. I won't hold my breath.

Sorry about that I misread. But if the Nazis could do what they did they certainly could have done something like what happened at Gitmo. (just being stubborn)

Durbin is in no way comparing the specific actions of the guards at Gitmo to the specific actions of the Nazis. He is saying you wouldn't think America capible of these actions.

"After the President decided to ignore Geneva Conventions, the administration unilaterally
created a new detention policy. They claim the right to seize anyone, including even American
citizens, anywhere in the world, including in the United States, and hold them until the end of the
war on terrorism, whenever that may be."

That however does sound like the Nazis.
Edit: strike Nazis, replace with oppressive regime

 

[imported_Stratago]

"They claim a person detained in the war on terrorism has no legal rights -- no right to a
lawyer, no right to see the evidence against them, no right to challenge their detention. In fact, the
Government has claimed detainees have no right to challenge their detention, even if they claim
they were being tortured or executed."

so does that

"Using their new detention policy, the administration has detained thousands of individuals
in secret detention centers all around the world, some of them unknown to Members of Congress.
While it is the most well-known, Guantanamo Bay is only one of them. Most have been captured
in Afghanistan and Iraq, but some people who never raised arms against us have been taken
prisoner far from the battlefield."

and that.

"Last year, in two landmark decisions, the Supreme Court rejected the administration's
detention policy. The Court held that the detainees' claims that they were detained for over two
years without charge and without access to counsel ?unquestionably describe custody in violation
of the Constitution, or laws or treaties of the United States.?
The Court also held that an American citizen held as an enemy combatant must be told the
basis for his detention and have a fair opportunity to challenge the Government's claims. Justice
Sandra Day O'Connor wrote for the majority: ?A state of war is not a blank check for the
President when it comes to the rights of the Nation's citizens.?
You would think that would be obvious, wouldn't you? But yet, this administration, in this
war, has viewed it much differently.
I had hoped the Supreme Court decision would change the administration policy.
Unfortunately, the administration has resisted complying with the Supreme Court's decision.
The administration acknowledges detainees can challenge their detention in court, but it
still claims that once they get to court, they have no legal rights. In other words, the
administration believes a detainee can get to the courthouse door but cannot come inside."

that too.

Source

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Stratago

Originally posted by: cwjerome
[


Here's MY point (and the point of the OP I think):

A) Saying the Gitmo situation will be a blotch on our history is one thing. But by also alluding to Japansese internment camps, he's making a bogus connection, because he's implying that the two are similar in other ways. It's an irresponsible comparison which negates his original point.

B) Saying the US isn't living up to its high ideals is one thing. But by also referencing Nazi and Soviets, he's making a bogus connection, because the issues aren't even close to what the Nazi and Soviets did. It's an irresponsible connection which negates his original point.

You have to understand that words having meaning. Make your arguments, but do so without outrageous comparisons and implying ridiculous connections, otherwise whatever point you're trying to make is lost in the bullsh*t. That's what I'm talking about when I say the Left is poisoning the well. Just as a little bit of poison destroys the valuable water, a little bit of wild-eyed nonsense destroys a valuable message.

I personally think Gitmo and the issues surrounding it has been a mistake for the Bush administration. But a rational dialogue that might actually help fix things is impossible with the nutty left engaged in crazed hyperbole and exagerration.

We all know Libs tend to be emotional but they have to set their anger and hate for Bush aside for the greater good. They might actually discover that such a strategy just may work better politically for them than the usual maniacal rhetoric.

Here's MY point:

A)We all know Libs tend to be emotional...

B)You have to understand that words having meaning. Saying the US isn't living up to what the Nazi and Soviets did... ...is poisoning the well.

Quite the contrary, liberals are less emotional ill and have, as a consequence, better access to their feelings. What doesn't feel is dead.

You are confusing being emotional with being irrational in the sense of having ones feelings pushing out ones judgment, but the emotionally cold are doing that also. The difference is that they are unconscious that they do. For example we need to fear the fascist right precisely because they don't feel any empathy at all. Their mental illness lies in the illusion that they are the good arrayed against the evil, and evil deserves what it gets. They do this because the evil they hate is themselves and they lack the moral courage to see it. They cannot fear because feeling for them is feeling how bad they feel about themselves. They will not believe that those feelings are a lie. They suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome and cooperate with evil.

Oh really? You've reached deep into the inner recesses of your unconscious and discovered the Truth of mankind?

We've had this discussion before. Save it for a like-minded mystic. Your pyschoneurotic religion does not interest me.

Hehe, it is already more than obvious that you are not interested in the truth. And why would you be? It requires profound curiosity or profound need to discover how bad you feel. The truth is in the last place you will ever look. Why else do you think nobody knows anything. Yes, I stuck in my thumb and pulled out a plum and said what a good boy am I. Suggestion: Pull your thumb from your ass. You can't fight an extra-dimensional being particularly with one hand tied behind your back. Ahahahahahaha!

A mystic is what a child calls a grown up who tells the child he will grow. How the f@ck could you know that, says the child. And worst of all the mystic is right. Now let me put my hand on your head and you punch away.

But if you ever need some love, come see me. Cause the fool on the hill is standing there still....

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Stratago

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Stratago

He is saying that if you heard about this being done to prisoners you would think that the government holding these prisoners would have no concern for human beings, LIKE the Nazis, Soviets, or some other mad regime. But these actions have been done by the US. That is what he is saying and if you can't see it your an idiot.
When you call the left closed minded you better have an open mind yourself or you will come off as a blubbering fool.

Stratego.... my conversation with you is over. (Did you just use the word LIKE? Think about that for a second please)

Here are my exact words: "[Durbin] was saying that people could confuse what happened at Gitmo with Nazi and Soviet actions."

Do you understand English?

Obviously you are to illiterate to notice that you're repeating yourself for no other reason than to look dumb because you are arguing something I'm not even saying. Get it through your head full of mush, that I am totally and completely analyzing his words in relation to the context. I understand perfectly what he was saying.

Apparently there's no purpose in discussing this with you until you demonstrate a lone molecule of intelligence. I said everything crystal clear in my 06/17/2005 12:23 AM post. Read it again. Three times if you have to. If you can come back and say something relevant than do so. I won't hold my breath.

Sorry about that I misread. But if the Nazis could do what they did they certainly could have done something like what happened at Gitmo. (just being stubborn)

Durbin is in no way comparing the specific actions of the guards at Gitmo to the specific actions of the Nazis. He is saying you wouldn't think America capible of these actions.

"After the President decided to ignore Geneva Conventions, the administration unilaterally
created a new detention policy. They claim the right to seize anyone, including even American
citizens, anywhere in the world, including in the United States, and hold them until the end of the
war on terrorism, whenever that may be."

That however does sound like the Nazis.
Edit: strike Nazis, replace with oppressive regime

As I said, the Gitmo issue is a stain, and the Bush policy concerning it does more harm than good... in my opinion.

As I said, much of it is counter our high ideals, and efforts should be taken to resolve it.

As I said, just referencing Soviet gulags and the Nazis implies an insane exagerration that destroys reasonable arguments, and will not bring around resolutions to the REAL problems that exist.

 

[BBond]

You're just upset because you know in your heart that it's true. Do you think the Nazis murdered 6 million on the first day? No, they whittled away at the rights of Germans and put their plan in place slowly, so hardly anyone would notice.

Well, this time we're noticing early.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: BBond
You're just upset because you know in your heart that it's true. Do you think the Nazis murdered 6 million on the first day? No, they whittled away at the rights of Germans and put their plan in place slowly, so hardly anyone would notice.

Well, this time we're noticing early.

LOL! Your bug-eyed babbling about Nazis is so... cool. I wish you had a TV show. People like you need to be heard. Your evil is a valuable learning tool for rational people. Your paranioa and conspiratorial schizophrenia is the best example of the looney left.

 

[Moonbeam]

A Jew in German is a Fanatical Islamic Terrorist.

But we are good and they are bad and that's all you need to know and we all know that.

I mean if good doesn't play dirty than bad will win. But much too complicated to understand is that if good plays dirty bad wins. So lets just keep it simple so all the fools can sleep at least till the Nuremberg trials start up again.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

"durban warfare"

:laugh:

CsG

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A Jew in German is a Fanatical Islamic Terrorist.

But we are good and they are bad and that's all you need to know and we all know that.

I mean if good doesn't play dirty than bad will win. But much too complicated to understand is that if good plays dirty bad wins. So lets just keep it simple so all the fools can sleep at least till the Nuremberg trials start up again.

Yep, let's kick in those Nuremburg Trials baby!

Let's see, Mr. Durbin mentions some interesting regimes while lamenting the fact that a person could easily mistake what the US does at Gitmo for the way Nazis, Soviet gulags, and Pol Pot would operate. Let's take a quick look at the basics: Nazis murdered 10+ million innocents in camps. Soviets murdered 10+ million innocents in camps. Only about 1.7 million dead in the Killing Fields. And finally we have Gitmo, where the number killed is somewhere between zero and zero :roll:

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Yep, let's kick in those Nuremburg Trials baby!

Let's see, Mr. Durbin mentions some interesting regimes while lamenting the fact that a person could easily mistake what the US does at Gitmo for the way Nazis, Soviet gulags, and Pol Pot would operate. Let's take a quick look at the basics: Nazis murdered 10+ million innocents in camps. Soviets murdered 10+ million innocents in camps. Only about 1.7 million dead in the Killing Fields. And finally we have Gitmo, where the number killed is somewhere between zero and zero :roll:

There's that straw man again, resorting to dishonesty when you have no legitimate cause to justify your hate. Pity, I thought there might be hope for you.

Rather than the slanted, out-of-context clip spun by Moon's tabloid (and dutifully parroted by Sir Chicken), let's look at the full text of Durbin's quote, in context with his remark about mad regimes:

When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here -- I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:

• "On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold....On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

Look at the Durbin's actual words. There's nothing there about murder. It's all about the inhumane way we treated our prisoners. And while it's true that the regimes mentioned murdered millions, only a blithering idiot would act as if that was the only notable trait of those regimes. Only a shamelss partisan tool would insist Durbin's comment must be about the most heinous behaviors of those mad regimes, even though he explicitly provided the behaviors he was actually discussing.

Durbin was clearly NOT drawing a parallel between their slaughters and our treatment of prisoners. Instead he was pointing out that (before Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo were revealed) people would assume the abusive treatment described above must have come from a "mad regime ... that had no concern for human beings," since clearly the United States holds itself to a higher standard. Except we don't ... not under Bush and his henchmen. Thanks to this reckless, irresponsible, unaccountable administration, our once-lofty principles have disintegrated. BushCo sees themselves as above the law; anything is acceptable if it furthers their agenda. Wrong is right, down is up, war is peace.

I explained all this before, of course, but the same lies pop up again and again. I guess the die-hard Bush apologists can't find anything else to shriek about right now. They need something to divert the public from the real failures and crimes of their god in the White House.

 

[cwjerome]

Only a blithering idiot would insist that the fundamental nature of those regimes, the fact that they committed mass slaughters, would somehow be irrelevant to Durbin's comments. Nobody's arguing that he said the US is comparable to them because we're killing people. But to ignore and dismiss his poor choice of words in the larger context is a slap in the face to our military and essentially gives aid and comfort to the enemy who will parrot his words as justification that the US military are like evil Nazis.

There's good ways of dealing with the Gitmo issue and bad ways. This is an ass-backwards retard way, and the fact that people like you will defend his statements is a sad commentary that you'll rationalize anything -howevere destructive and fraudulent- to undermine our war effort... an effort you wholeheartedly oppose and will stoop to any level to trash.

 

[Steeplerot]

there is no "our" war effort it's bush's. get it right.

noone asked me to vote for a war and no war has been declared formally.

If you would like to join them though in the quest for the oily grail..feel free. You have a phonebook let your fingers do the walking baby..r e c r u i t m e n t c e n t e r is what you are looking for.

and please dont forget to not write.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Only a blithering idiot would insist that the fundamental nature of those regimes, the fact that they committed mass slaughters, would somehow be irrelevant to Durbin's comments. Nobody's arguing that he said the US is comparable to them because we're killing people. But to ignore and dismiss his poor choice of words in the larger context is a slap in the face to our military and essentially gives aid and comfort to the enemy who will parrot his words as justification that the US military are like evil Nazis.

There's good ways of dealing with the Gitmo issue and bad ways. This is an ass-backwards retard way, and the fact that people like you will defend his statements is a sad commentary that you'll rationalize anything -howevere destructive and fraudulent- to undermine our war effort... an effort you wholeheartedly oppose and will stoop to any level to trash.

Here's the cliff notes for Durbin's speech:

no concern for human beings

Now, if you weren't screaming "TRAITOR!" like a hysterical little girl at the top of her lungs, perhaps you'd understand that's what Durbin's talking about. That's what AI is talking about. That's what EVERYONE is talking about.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Only a blithering idiot would insist that the fundamental nature of those regimes, the fact that they committed mass slaughters, would somehow be irrelevant to Durbin's comments. Nobody's arguing that he said the US is comparable to them because we're killing people. But to ignore and dismiss his poor choice of words in the larger context is a slap in the face to our military and essentially gives aid and comfort to the enemy who will parrot his words as justification that the US military are like evil Nazis.

There's good ways of dealing with the Gitmo issue and bad ways. This is an ass-backwards retard way, and the fact that people like you will defend his statements is a sad commentary that you'll rationalize anything -howevere destructive and fraudulent- to undermine our war effort... an effort you wholeheartedly oppose and will stoop to any level to trash.

More straw men. When you can't attack the truth, just make stuff up and shriek "like a hysterical little girl at the top of her lungs*."


(*Credit to DealMonkey, great description of their shrill whining. :thumbsup: )

 

[CADsortaGUY]

No American 'Gulag'

Even this guy understands that the over the top rhetoric used by the ultraleftists does their case no good. Although he does defend AI and claim it uses a "balanced approach to the defense of human rights" which is laughable but his point about the extreme rhetoric stands true. I wonder why the Durbin apologists don't understand that...oh wait...yes I do understand why...

CsG

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Only a blithering idiot would insist that the fundamental nature of those regimes, the fact that they committed mass slaughters, would somehow be irrelevant to Durbin's comments. Nobody's arguing that he said the US is comparable to them because we're killing people. But to ignore and dismiss his poor choice of words in the larger context is a slap in the face to our military and essentially gives aid and comfort to the enemy who will parrot his words as justification that the US military are like evil Nazis.

There's good ways of dealing with the Gitmo issue and bad ways. This is an ass-backwards retard way, and the fact that people like you will defend his statements is a sad commentary that you'll rationalize anything -howevere destructive and fraudulent- to undermine our war effort... an effort you wholeheartedly oppose and will stoop to any level to trash.

Here's the cliff notes for Durbin's speech:

no concern for human beings

Now, if you weren't screaming "TRAITOR!" like a hysterical little girl at the top of her lungs, perhaps you'd understand that's what Durbin's talking about. That's what AI is talking about. That's what EVERYONE is talking about.

Of course I've never screamed, or used the word "traitor", but I doubt reality matters to anti-Bush jerk-a-lots... just judging from your refusal to admit (or just plain ignorance to see) the destructive and fraudulent choice of words used by Durbin.

Let's see: There's "no concern for human beings" which is exemplified by Nazis and Soviet Gulags. Then we have "no concern for human beings" as exemplified by Gitmo.

Hmmmmm????

Admittedly both are bad, but the range of bad is so astronomical that to equate the two different scenarios under the "no concern for human beings" banner is stupid, stupid, stupid. I wonder what that makes people who cheer such comparisons? Are such people simply dumb, or are they evil enough to spread monstrous lies knowingly for political purposes? Looks like a combination to me

Mr. Bowfinger, extra lumpy for you because you don't have the sense enough to see just how over-the-top Durbin was for linking Nazis and gulags to what happens at Gitmo. I have amply shown your pathetic "straw man" whimpering to be that of a desperate hack losing his grip on the situation and lashing out in vain attempts to defend the indefensible. When it comes to shrill whining, the legion of insipid Bush Bashers take it to epic proportions.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Of course I've never screamed, or used the word "traitor", but I doubt reality matters to anti-Bush jerk-a-lots... just judging from your refusal to admit (or just plain ignorance to see) the destructive and fraudulent choice of words used by Durbin.

Right. Why come out and say it when you can beat around the Bush?

...his poor choice of words in the larger context is a slap in the face to our military and essentially gives aid and comfort to the enemy...

This is the very definition of traitorous behavior and you know it.

Admittedly both are bad, but the range of bad is so astronomical that to equate the two different scenarios under the "no concern for human beings" banner is stupid, stupid, stupid. I wonder what that makes people who cheer such comparisons? Are such people simply dumb, or are they evil enough to spread monstrous lies knowingly for political purposes? Looks like a combination to me

You're still stuck on the comparison, which if you read his words, I don't feel is what Durbin was doing. You're still missing the point and harping on the semantics. I already pointed out the issue that is being addressed in Durbin's speech: "no concern for human beings."

This goes to the core in the issue of human rights. We tortured. We killed. We detain indefinitely without charges. Clearly we don't have the volume under our belt that the Germans or the Russians eventually did, but we have the same disdain for human rights in our hearts.

 

[cwjerome]

I try to choose my words carefully (unlike Mr. Durbin)... as I stated in this thread earlier, "words have meaning." Therefore I do not try and blow something completely out of proportion and exagerrate beyong the bounds of common sense. Durbin is not a traitor, he does not need to be tried in a court, he does not even have to be thrown out of the Senate. He foolishly choose innapropriate terminology that was untruthful and hurtful... probably for ill-attempted political gamesmanship. He should be censored and made to apologize for phrasing things in a way that can easily be construed as equating the US military to the Nazis and Soviet gulags.

Gitmo does not rise to the heinous level that Nazis and Soviet gulags reside. We can say Gitmo is a failure on many fronts, that it hurts the US, and is a serious letdown of not living up to our high ideals. But attaching "nazi" and "soviet gulag" to the offenses observed at Gitmo is intellectual and moral blindness. It's an affront to the millions who suffered and died at the hands of those evil systems. I'm sure we can compare a lot of things in this world -good, bad, or indifferent- to the Nazis and Soviet gulags, but doing so is a irresponsible endeavor due to the overridding and overwhelming atrocity-ridden, megadeath inherently associated with and connected to those barbaric organizations.

You have the audacity to say I'M harping on semantics, when you people are ALSO arguing about the meaning of his words. Sorry man, this is a semantic debate, a very important one, and we're BOTH involved.

Your last paragraph is telling, a snapshot of a black and white attitude that can only lead to mental paralysis. As if all torture is the same... you must think that all murder is the same, all theft is the same, and all things under one definition are the exact same. Is a man who kills in the heat of jealous passion as evil as the man who methodically plans and executes a slow, painful death to someone? Is the kid who steals a pack of gum in the same moral universe as a man who steals truckloads of supplies that are headed to a family homeless shelter? Does a man who chains a terrorist to the floor and blasts rap music into the cold room have the same heart as the man who conducts grotesque biological mutilations on a prisoner until they are dead?

Personally, I think there has been abuses (although despite what you claim, NO DEATHS). This does not mean I think we're equal to Nazis or Soviet gulags. This does not mean I think we have the same disdain for human rights in our hearts , which by the way, is an admission to moral/practical equivelency. I believe most people can see the difference, and in doing so, see people like you as being sensationalistic blow-hards would should simply be ignored.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I try to choose my words carefully (unlike Mr. Durbin)... as I stated in this thread earlier, "words have meaning." Therefore I do not try and blow something completely out of proportion and exagerrate beyong the bounds of common sense. Durbin is not a traitor, he does not need to be tried in a court, he does not even have to be thrown out of the Senate. He foolishly choose innapropriate terminology that was untruthful and hurtful... probably for ill-attempted political gamesmanship. He should be censored and made to apologize for phrasing things in a way that can easily be construed as equating the US military to the Nazis and Soviet gulags.

Gitmo does not rise to the heinous level that Nazis and Soviet gulags reside. We can say Gitmo is a failure on many fronts, that it hurts the US, and is a serious letdown of not living up to our high ideals. But attaching "nazi" and "soviet gulag" to the offenses observed at Gitmo is intellectual and moral blindness. It's an affront to the millions who suffered and died at the hands of those evil systems. I'm sure we can compare a lot of things in this world -good, bad, or indifferent- to the Nazis and Soviet gulags, but doing so is a irresponsible endeavor due to the overridding and overwhelming atrocity-ridden, megadeath inherently associated with and connected to those barbaric organizations.

You have the audacity to say I'M harping on semantics, when you people are ALSO arguing about the meaning of his words. Sorry man, this is a semantic debate, a very important one, and we're BOTH involved.

Your last paragraph is telling, a snapshot of a black and white attitude that can only lead to mental paralysis. As if all torture is the same... you must think that all murder is the same, all theft is the same, and all things under one definition are the exact same. Is a man who kills in the heat of jealous passion as evil as the man who methodically plans and executes a slow, painful death to someone? Is the kid who steals a pack of gum in the same moral universe as a man who steals truckloads of supplies that are headed to a family homeless shelter? Does a man who chains a terrorist to the floor and blasts rap music into the cold room have the same heart as the man who conducts grotesque biological mutilations on a prisoner until they are dead?

Personally, I think there has been abuses (although despite what you claim, NO DEATHS). This does not mean I think we're equal to Nazis or Soviet gulags. This does not mean I think we have the same disdain for human rights in our hearts , which by the way, is an admission to moral/practical equivelency. I believe most people can see the difference, and in doing so, see people like you as being sensationalistic blow-hards would should simply be ignored.

I think his words were ill chosen as well.

I would take issue on one point though, the Nazis and Soviets did not have disdain for human rights, they disregarded them. Not something to be held at arms length because of a foul stench, but something that simply was irrelevant. That is one thing that this administration has in common albeit at a smaller scale. It is one thing to claim the motivation for doing something based on human rights, and another to violate the human rights of others based on the claim they don't exist because they are claimed to be "enemy combatants". They are still human regardless. That is the parallel. The Govt. can take individuals, hang a tag on them and lock them away forever regardless of the facts. Perhaps what happens to people who are locked up in Gitmo isn't as bad as the Gulags, but they have no more hope of justice than in the USSR as things stand now.

 

[1EZduzit]

We're too busy creating a democracy in Iraq to worry about a little thing like justice. What does one have to do with the other?? <sacrcasm off>

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
[ ... ]
Mr. Bowfinger, extra lumpy for you because you don't have the sense enough to see just how over-the-top Durbin was for linking Nazis and gulags to what happens at Gitmo. I have amply shown your pathetic "straw man" whimpering to be that of a desperate hack losing his grip on the situation and lashing out in vain attempts to defend the indefensible. When it comes to shrill whining, the legion of insipid Bush Bashers take it to epic proportions.

I don't see Durbin's comments as "over-the-top" at all. I think his comment is simply, factually true. Prior to BushCo, I sincerely believe people would have assumed the FBI report was describing abuses of some other mad regime with no regard for human rights, not the United States. While I agree the agent's report is not descriptive of the most heinous abuses of Nazis, Soviet Gulags, etc., it certainly describes the sort of routine treatment people would associate with those "mad regimes". That is what Durbin was pointing out, his actual words. Everything beyond that is your over-the-top projection of what you hope Durbin was trying to suggest, i.e., a straw man. It is a lie. The "desperate hack" is staring back at you from your mirror.

 

[Darkhawk28]

I never understood the logic in arguing,

"Hey, we're not AS bad as Nazi's!"