retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
Al Gore lost Florida because the Supreme Coup decided they would determine who won rather than the people of Florida. It makes no difference what Gore wanted or Bush wanted or anybody else wanted. The total vote of all legally votes of those cast in the 2000 Florida presidential election was the only way to determine who won and that is what the court should have ordered be recounted. Gore won the most total legal votes state wide.
Losing? Coleman has had more votes for the last month and a half, and Bush gave the Democrats a nice thrashing in the rematch.
Except Coleman's lead is getting smaller and smaller as the recount happens...which is why he wants to stop it. As for Bush and the rematch, if he wanted to try to beat President Gore in 2004...that's great, that's how the election process is supposed to work. But winning the second time around doesn't make up for losing the first time, which seems to be your logic. Honestly I'm not sure Bush should have lost in 2000, but your statement that it shouldn't matter because he won in 2004 is a little weird.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
I thought you weren't going to reply to my posts? Or was it that you don't want me to reply to yours?
Everything there is fine EXCEPT for national standards. Having national standards/rules would step on a state's toes with regard to states rights. I have no problem with a list of suggested best practices but each state should have the right to hold elections as they see fit. However, each state must have a clearly defined set of rules and procedures so these asshat politicians can't try to skew the results.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
But even with that you have idiots that couldn't manage to fill them out right.
Go take a look at some of the disputed ballots, sheer lunacy on some of them.
Except the guy who voted for the Lizard People, he is A ok in my book.
Exactly, and that's why not every vote can count. If you're too stupid to fill in a circle, then I'm sorry but your vote does not count.
Hell, we even have machines (or we did in my precinct) which will mark the circle for you if you touch the name on the screen.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
If you make a mistake or change your mind you get a new ballot, and they tell you as such when you get your voting materials. The instructions are all right there.
Voting is limited to adults 18 and over. I think we can expect adults to read and comprehend simple instructions. If they cannot then they are not adults and should not be voting.
After the last recount Coleman is STILL ahead... So really, the only person who seems to be dragging this out until enough votes can be "found" is Al Franken. Luckily he's got a friend in Mark Richie (who is also on the canvasing board) so damnit they will keep counting until enough votes can be found to get their boy elected!
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
I can't tell if you guys are really idiots or just pretend to be idiots when we talk about the Florida thing.
Al Gore DID NOT ask for a manual recount of the whole state. He only wanted a recount of certain counties, ones most likely to help him.
The court ruled 7-2 that what Gore was asking for violated the 14th amendment.
But more importantly and the fact that you guys always seem to ignore is that if the court had done NOTHING Gore would have lost. Also, Gore ONLY wins if you count overvotes and NO ONE asked for a count of overvotes, they only wanted a recount of undervotes.
If they would have allowed the recount that Gore wanted to finish it would have finished with Bush winning. The Supreme Court did NOT give Bush the victory, Gore gave Bush the victory by asking for a recount in only certain counties. It is Gore's fault for choosing a legal strategy that was clearly unconstitutional.
Finally, Florida law sets a deadline of December 12 for the completion of all recounts and for electors to be chosen. The Supreme Court ruled on the case on December 12 and ruled correctly that there was NO TIME left for a recount unless you ignored the Florida law. That is why they stopped the recount.
BTW there was a complete recount done right after the election and Bush won that recount. The recount done by the Newspaper group that shows Gore winning was a manual recount of all over and under votes. Gore never asked for such a recount and only wanted that manual recount done in a few select counties. Again, it was Gore's decision to pick and chose which counties to recount that caused the Supreme Court to step in with its 7-2 ruling.
Originally posted by: mugs
How could you possibly find fault in counting votes that were rejected for improper reasons?
Don't confuse America haters with facts.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
1. The only way Gore wins in Florida is if you recount overvotes, and no one ever talked about counting overvotes.
2. I just finished reading over the actually text of the Supreme Court ruling and have a clear understanding of the issues.
a. Gore wanted a recount of only certain counties a clear violation of the equal protection clause. This was the 7-2 ruling.
b. Florida law required that all recounts be complete by Dec 12 and since they ruled on Dec 12 they ruled that there was no time left for a recount unless you ignored that law. That was the 5-4 ruling.
3. Gore only wins the media recount if you include overvotes. If they only recount the undervotes by hand then Bush wins. Also the media recount clearly stated that the results varied based on what standard you use. Gore only wins if you use the most lenient of standards. There is no way to determine what standard would have been used if a state wide recount had been ordered by the Supreme Court.
4. The idea that the office was stolen is a joke. Bush won the legal recount. If the Supreme Court had sat on its ass and done nothing Bush still would have won. If Al Gore had been allowed to do any type of recount that he had asked for Bush would have won.
5. Gore SHOULD have won the election, but he didn't because of errors caused completely by Democrats. Democrats designed the butterfly ballots that caused so many problems in Palm Beach. It was Gore and his legal team that made faulty decisions when fighting this battle in court.
Holy crap, they're keeping the initial accounts in heniman(sp?) county. This was the county that lost 113 votes originally (which include ~35 for Franken) and couldn't find them.
With this many votes gain, I'd say Franken is still in the game.
With this many votes gain, I'd say Franken is still in the game.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
glass houses...
No, you really don't.
No, it really wasn't.
Gore's request for recounts only in certain counties had absolutely nothing to do with the 7-2 decision. Bush argued that because there was no statewide standard for manual recounts that what constituted a valid ballot in one county might not qualify under another county's proprietary standard. Gore argued that there was a statewide standard, which he called the "intent of the voter" standard. SC agreed with Bush, but would have even if Gore asked for a recount of the entire state, so long as any two counties being recounted had different standards for the manual recount.
ANd SCOTUS didn't even have a problem with different ways of counting the votes, it was the FL SC who they were taking to task, not Gore, for failing to secure safeguards in such a manual recount.
From the decision:
If you believe that Gore requesting recounts only in specific counties had any bearing whatsoever on the decision, please quote such language from the opinion.
If however, you reread the decision in light of what I've articulated, a simple "thanks, I must have read that wrong" will end our discussion.
does loosar have any friends here? It seems like all he does is post assinine comments, and get raped by everyone here.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
Doh!!! You're right.
I thought it was based on the fact that they were only counting certain counties thus violating the rights of people in the other counties who weren't getting such treatment.
This doesn't alter the fact that if the court had done nothing Bush still would have won. Unless they started to count the overvotes as well, which may have happened.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
(then maybe you'd like to edit your prior posts calling people idiots when they talk about FL)
Seeing as how they did not actually conduct a full manual recount under a uniform safeguarded standard, your speculation as to what would have happened is pretty baseless. And that's the main argument calm Gore supporters make, not that Gore absopositively won, but that we'll never know what would have happened.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
- 7
- 0
It is very true that we will never know.
Even the after the fact media recount leaves questions.
When they did the recount they used different standards and came up with different results. Which implies that if there had been a full recount Bush may have still won, or Gore may have won. Impossible to tell what standard would have been used. Generally the stricter the standard the more likely it is that Bush wins.
Even the after the fact media recount leaves questions.
When they did the recount they used different standards and came up with different results. Which implies that if there had been a full recount Bush may have still won, or Gore may have won. Impossible to tell what standard would have been used. Generally the stricter the standard the more likely it is that Bush wins.
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