Mini Splits and manufacturers

[zinfamous]

Hello All,

So I'm going to install a new mini split in my house that has never had central air (so no ductwork). It's a Cape Cod built in 1937, uses hot water radiated heat (natural gas boiler) and had some old window units for summer AC needs.

I had a local fellow come out to do an annual service/cleaning for the furnace, and also a consultation for a new mini-split system. The plan is a 3 or 4 zone system, with a single exterior radiator/compressor unit.

For the 3 zone plan, there will be one in the upstairs master/nook suite--basically a converted attic space with bedroom and wrap-around "nook" (900 sq ft with variable ceiling height), the largest unit on the main floor to service the dining room and living room spaces (basically the front side of the house: ~1900sq ft, including 8ft ceilings), and one smallish unit in the basement apartment (~1400 sq ft, 7 ft ceilings: one room + bedroom, closed off from the drafty utility room that makes up the rest of the basement space.) For the basement apartment unit, the only real need there is dehumidification, as it stays relatively cool in the summers and warm in the winters on its own.

The 4 zone system would add a small unit to a main floor guest bedroom, which couldn't really be serviced by the living/dining room unit. Based on overall cost, I'll decide whether or not it's worth it. (the additional unit, plus it is the most complicated piping situation, as the others can easily be located very close to the external compressor).

This company only installs Carrier mini splits, and I have heard that their HVAC stuff has gone downhill in recent years, so I'm not sure what to think about that. I am going to call a local Mitsubishi installer for a competing quote (these tend to be the most popular, right?) and maybe another. I will post this first quote here once I receive it--I honestly don't know what kind of cost to expect with 3 or 4 zone system, based on whatever BTU it is determined that I need, and installation.

Does anyone have particular or various experience with brands of minisplit manufacturers? typical costs to install? Pro-tips on what to look for or avoid in models?

TIA

 

[herm0016]

we have a similar situation with a 60s built home that is hot water baseboard and we have window units in the bedrooms.
i got a quote for close to 20k for a 4 station 3-9000 btu and one 12000 btu. the unit can be had for around 5k. I would run the pipes mostly through the attic with one set going on the outside to change floors. I am not sure which manufacture that was.

 

[WilliamM2]

I've heard nothing but bad things about Carrier's mini-splits, which they don't manufacture themselves, but are re-badged Chinese units.

Go with Mitsubishi or Bosch.

 

[zinfamous]

I've heard nothing but bad things about Carrier's mini-splits, which they don't manufacture themselves, but are re-badged Chinese units.

Go with Mitsubishi or Bosch.

Ugh, that's what I thought I had heard. These will have a 10 year parts warranty (though not sure if that is the same for compressor--I've seen compressor and parts warranties listed separately for these units; usually ~7 and 3 or 5 years, respectively.)

I have the local Mitsubishi "Diamond" distributor/installer coming tomorrow morning. Still no quote from the Carrier guy...but dang herm, $20k? That's almost like a brand-new HVAC with new duct install, isn't it?

 

[Greenman]

Ugh, that's what I thought I had heard. These will have a 10 year parts warranty (though not sure if that is the same for compressor--I've seen compressor and parts warranties listed separately for these units; usually ~7 and 3 or 5 years, respectively.)

I have the local Mitsubishi "Diamond" distributor/installer coming tomorrow morning. Still no quote from the Carrier guy...but dang herm, $20k? That's almost like a brand-new HVAC with new duct install, isn't it?

HVAC installers often have enormous markup. I've had bids that listed $4k equipment costs that I ended up buying directly for under a $1k.
I just installed a 3 zone system in a remodel, had about $4k in hardware, and $2500 in labor. That's including an HVAC guy I hired at $125 an hour to make the final connections, evacuate the lines, check for leaks, and verify everything was working within spec. This was all Chinese components because I couldn't buy anything else.

 

[zinfamous]

HVAC installers often have enormous markup. I've had bids that listed $4k equipment costs that I ended up buying directly for under a $1k.
I just installed a 3 zone system in a remodel, had about $4k in hardware, and $2500 in labor. That's including an HVAC guy I hired at $125 an hour to make the final connections, evacuate the lines, check for leaks, and verify everything was working within spec. This was all Chinese components because I couldn't buy anything else.

Dang. I expected a markup on equipment, but not 4x, lol. I understand that painters tend to hate contracting jobs where the paint is pre-purchased (some painter friends have told me that this is the bulk of their income), so is it the same with plumbing/air contractors?

Wondering how difficult it would be to select my equipment, piping and all that, and hire someone to install it...or just do it myself. This is one of those jobs I probably don't trust myself to do. I also can't imagine a licensed pro agreeing to an install like this without their own plans to run the lines through the closet, basement, utility, outside, and all the plumbing runs measured and ready to go...etc.

...I think I will PM Mayne and try to temp him down below the border to spend a week or two installing some equipment for potatoes, soup, and various other inducements.

 

[Greenman]

Dang. I expected a markup on equipment, but not 4x, lol. I understand that painters tend to hate contracting jobs where the paint is pre-purchased (some painter friends have told me that this is the bulk of their income), so is it the same with plumbing/air contractors?

Wondering how difficult it would be to select my equipment, piping and all that, and hire someone to install it...or just do it myself. This is one of those jobs I probably don't trust myself to do. I also can't imagine a licensed pro agreeing to an install like this without their own plans to run the lines through the closet, basement, utility, outside, and all the plumbing runs measured and ready to go...etc.

...I think I will PM Mayne and try to temp him down below the border to spend a week or two installing some equipment for potatoes, soup, and various other inducements.

Keep in mind that these systems aren't really made to have the plumbing concealed in the wall. They also have a condensate line that's gravity feed, though I've seen ceiling mounted units that have a pump.
This is by no means my field of expertise, I've just had to learn a little about it because I refuse to pay the absurd prices a lot of the installers around here get.

 

[zinfamous]

Ah, thanks man. I thought it odd that he mentioned installing the compressor on an outside wall where one unit would be in basement and the rest in rooms 1 and 2 floors above that. I understood the condensate lines needed to run down to the compressor, but that is one of the points that I didn't address.

The only non-exposed runs in this option would be the 4th optional unit in the main floor bedroom, that runs into the closet, straight down into the utility room basement, and then to the outside. That would actually be a drop and then a climb. He never said anything about a pump, but also rebuffed me when I asked for a rough estimate on equipment and ballpark overall. I hate that. I understand that an estimate is not going to be the same. I understand this. I want people to answer my questions the best that they can and not assume that I am some asshole out to sue them for any reason. I will see if the cost of a pump is added...or that it isn't even in the quote.

Will see what Mitsubishi people say tomorrow now that I am armed with a few more questions, and I'm seriously considering luring Mayne down here for a week of fun....

Hey, if I can get that to happen, could we do an impromptu AT-DC meetup?

 

[zinfamous]

Mitsubishi guy came by this morning, and gave me a rough pre-estimate of $17k for a 3 unit install with a 4-unit capacity outdoor compressor, in case I do want to add the 4th (he claimed that this was not an efficiency problem, but I remain dubious based on what I have read....)

Carrier quote came in, with zero details (meaning line item costs and BTU details, which I understand):

3 zone: $13.5k (less $1,082k if I pay cash.credit, cheque with everything)
4 zone: $16.2k (less $1.3k " " ").

Don't know about the make all payments discount--no mention of financing, so if that means 3-5 total payments, or can finance with those discounts...don't know.

Mitsubishi has 10 year labor and 12 year all parts warranty, 36 month 0% financing. The markup on equipment really is insane. I'm seeing mitsubishi 3-zone systems, 18k BTU going for about $4k for the equipment. I need to look into the calcuations on matching compressor with indoor units, but the guy today scratched down 18k for main floor unit, 12k upstairs, 9k basement (we were talking about the ceiling cassette for this one, because of lack of proper areas to install a wall unit), and optional 9k guest bedroom.

The company that supplies Carrier also did my boiler tune-up. The thing shut down sometime that day, and hasn't been working since then. I suspected that his desire to tape up the back draft area (at the relay box in the back?) was a bit odd, because it was always working. He claimed that it needed draft coming in from the bottom, not that relay box. The other plumber today, after I mentioned this, shook his head. The relay was overheating and shutting itself down. He untaped it and the pilot sparked right back up, lol...so I honestly don't think I'm dealing with those guys again. The estimator said he could just put the units anywhere, wherever I want them, rather than insisting that they simply wouldn't work in certain areas if installed improperly. Plus he was like "Sales guy." Mitsubishi guy was wearing flannels, well-worn jeans, and wack teeth, so I trust this guy.

Still haven't heard from Mayne. Trying to get him to come down and help us Make America Mayne Again.

 

[iRONic]

I sent you a PM.

 

[Six]

I'm not in the business. These are just my opinions through dealings with folks in this business. Equipment longevity depends more on maintenance and quality worksmanship by the techs than brands. And I pretty sure, if you install the equipment, you won't get the warranties, because you usually have to go through the licensed installer for warranty repairs. Last thing, avoid installing condensation pumps, unless you absolutely cannot find a way.

 

[WilliamM2]

I'm not in the business. These are just my opinions through dealings with folks in this business. Equipment longevity depends more on maintenance and quality worksmanship by the techs than brands. And I pretty sure, if you install the equipment, you won't get the warranties, because you usually have to go through the licensed installer for warranty repairs. Last thing, avoid installing condensation pumps, unless you absolutely cannot find a way.

What's wrong with condensate pumps? Pretty standard around here where condensing furnaces and evaporator coils are installed in the basement. Water won't flow uphill on it's own.

 

[Six]

What's wrong with condensate pumps? Pretty standard around here where condensing furnaces and evaporator coils are installed in the basement. Water won't flow uphill on it's own.

We're talking about mini-splits. I have never heard of a mini-split with a condensing furnace and evaporator coils in the basement.

Anyhow, avoid condensate pumps if you can, because they can fail. Keep the system simple. Some techs like to use them, because it makes their job easier/faster. But if it's needed, then it's needed.

 

[paperfist]

There's also high velocity a/c units. I don't know much about them other then they are easier to retrofit since they use 3" lines.

 

[WilliamM2]

We're talking about mini-splits. I have never heard of a mini-split with a condensing furnace and evaporator coils in the basement.

Anyhow, avoid condensate pumps if you can, because they can fail. Keep the system simple. Some techs like to use them, because it makes their job easier/faster. But if it's needed, then it's needed.

I know you were talking mini-splits. But the condensate pump does the same thing on either type. Most have a safety switch, which will shut the system down if the pump fails, or the line gets plugged, I know mine does. Both types of system should have a safety too.

 

[Greenman]

There's also high velocity a/c units. I don't know much about them other then they are easier to retrofit since they use 3" lines.

I've never seen an HV system, but I like the idea. You could almost strap the duct work to the ceiling.

 

[herm0016]

they can be very noisy, and apparently they are more expensive than the mini-splits. i inquired about this option but was told not to bother.

I've never seen an HV system, but I like the idea. You could almost strap the duct work to the ceiling.

 

[zinfamous]

I looked up the HV system because I also had not heard of that...interesting, but expensive and I'm not sure that I would want to deal with the steady blast of volcanic air right near the source.

I still haven't heard back from Mitsubishi--I will call them later today. ...but I'm also pretty much convinced that now is not the time for me to be installing this system. It is just too damn expensive. I'm going to talk with the mitsu guy and see if he has any interest in doing an install off-hours if I were to purchase equipment and pay him or his people directly; hoping he's the type of contractor that would do that. ....but then that probably means no warranty so you're losing half the value right there.

Regardless, even doing it that way, I just don't think the upfront cost is worth it. As brutal as last summer was, I did relatively well with my one old, legionnaires-infested window unit on the main floor and the one upstairs. ...I think I will just get a new, better one for downstairs and maybe upstairs when the time comes. I'm guessing it would take at least 10 years to break even with cost compared to my window units, especially if I spend some time replacing the seals on my doors and windows, where needed. I'm also not thinking that cost is really going to be seen in appreciated home value. The one project that really interests me is the kitchen. I've already got virgin hardwood floors buried under crappy sticky tile, so that's just a matter of pulling that up, cleaning and sanding, and re-staining. Replace the counters with some of that fancy quartz-slurry stuff, Dekon or whatever it's called, re-tile the backsplash and walls (I installed a fancy new hood last year), and rearrange the setup. I think the kitchen would be a ~$2k or so actual cost to what, $15-20k resale value?

 

[zinfamous]

Just as I post....Mitsubishi guy forwards the quote.

3 unit system (18k BTU wall main floor, 9k wall upstairs, 12k ceiling cassette for basement, single 45 BTU compressor outside: $20.6k (financed, 3 years, 0%, nothing down = $574/month); or $18.1k cash.
4 unit system, adding one 9k wall unit to guest BR on main floor: $24k financed or $21k cash

LoL at that markup. I priced out the parts here
https://www.budgetheating.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=013AN

using the same heatpump and same BTU ratings (including the one in-ceiling cassette), I get $5.4k cost for the same 3-zone system (excluding piping and all that, obviously). This is for one brand new, but "cosmetic" damaged equipment--looks like some nicks and dents on the radiator.

I'm thinking they are paying a little under $5k for the same equipment, essentially undamaged (or will at least agree to replace it if I don't like how it looks), and plan to recoup cost within half a year of financing? cost + labor after first year, and just 2 years straight profit?

...Now that I've convinced myself this is pretty stupid in the end, I think it is bargaining time because I really don't care. It seems to me that the biggest deal here is insuring no loss of expense...so roughly $4-5k. I don't want to make an embarrassingly low offer, but what about $4k cash down, $6k financed over 24 or 18 months? ...does that seem reasonable or would all of you guys laugh at me? Seems to me that he gets his upfront cost back immediately, then it's pure profit for 1 or 1.5 years.

I think at around $10k, it might be worth the investment for home value, but much beyond that is ludicrous. State/county incentives are about $100 rebate for hitting 21 SEER, I think (this system is rated 19.5 SEER). I would estimate that I am coming from ....37 SEER with my window units/bleedy walls, not that I have any clue how any of this is calculated or what it takes for the installed space to meet the equipment-advertised ratings. ....anyway.

 

[NutBucket]

The biggest thing with the mini-splits is both efficiency and noise. The fact they are dead silent (as in you can barely hear the air moving) is a huge selling point.

From what I can tell the markup you're seeing is pretty common for HVAC. For reference a friend had two zones installed for around $10k here in SoCal. I can't recall which brand it is (not Carrier IIRC) but he's been more than satisfied.

 

[Aikouka]

I've found that dealing with trades is usually just pretty expensive overall, and there's definitely a mark-up. When I was looking into getting a tankless water heater installed, I asked about why the cost was about $4500 when the unit is $1500 on Amazon and the gas line was about $400. (Of course, there's venting that would need to be included too.) The guy that I dealt with was pretty cool, and flat out told me the book pricing on the RL94i was $3,645, and if you look it up on Amazon, it's only $1,371 (now), which is a 2.66x mark-up. Things can be quite a bit cheaper if you purchase hardware yourself and do basic installation (mounting, etc.). For example, I could have them run the gas line to the area and create a vent for me, and then I add the water heater in. For something like that, I'd be looking at about $800, but the only issue is that I may not get warranty support due to the tradesman not installing it.

Although, I have been rather fond of the idea of a mini-split system. It's probably more common given the computer-oriented focus of this forum, but I'm sure we've all had a computer that could be easily misconstrued for a space heater. Computers being sources of heat are why I like mini-splits as they work as you can install a unit in specific areas/rooms to combat hot spots. When I had my AC redone, I talked to them about potentially installing a mini-split or something in my computer room, but they assured me it would be fine. As you can guess, it isn't, and now I'm yet again using a fan in the room during warmer months even though its downstairs.

 

[paperfist]

Just as I post....Mitsubishi guy forwards the quote.

3 unit system (18k BTU wall main floor, 9k wall upstairs, 12k ceiling cassette for basement, single 45 BTU compressor outside: $20.6k (financed, 3 years, 0%, nothing down = $574/month); or $18.1k cash.
4 unit system, adding one 9k wall unit to guest BR on main floor: $24k financed or $21k cash

LoL at that markup. I priced out the parts here
https://www.budgetheating.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=013AN

using the same heatpump and same BTU ratings (including the one in-ceiling cassette), I get $5.4k cost for the same 3-zone system (excluding piping and all that, obviously). This is for one brand new, but "cosmetic" damaged equipment--looks like some nicks and dents on the radiator.

I'm thinking they are paying a little under $5k for the same equipment, essentially undamaged (or will at least agree to replace it if I don't like how it looks), and plan to recoup cost within half a year of financing? cost + labor after first year, and just 2 years straight profit?

...Now that I've convinced myself this is pretty stupid in the end, I think it is bargaining time because I really don't care. It seems to me that the biggest deal here is insuring no loss of expense...so roughly $4-5k. I don't want to make an embarrassingly low offer, but what about $4k cash down, $6k financed over 24 or 18 months? ...does that seem reasonable or would all of you guys laugh at me? Seems to me that he gets his upfront cost back immediately, then it's pure profit for 1 or 1.5 years.

I think at around $10k, it might be worth the investment for home value, but much beyond that is ludicrous. State/county incentives are about $100 rebate for hitting 21 SEER, I think (this system is rated 19.5 SEER). I would estimate that I am coming from ....37 SEER with my window units/bleedy walls, not that I have any clue how any of this is calculated or what it takes for the installed space to meet the equipment-advertised ratings. ....anyway.

I can't believe how much that stuff costs! Guess I'm lucky my sister married a plumbing/HVAC guy

 

[13Gigatons]

Just as I post....Mitsubishi guy forwards the quote.

3 unit system (18k BTU wall main floor, 9k wall upstairs, 12k ceiling cassette for basement, single 45 BTU compressor outside: $20.6k (financed, 3 years, 0%, nothing down = $574/month); or $18.1k cash.
4 unit system, adding one 9k wall unit to guest BR on main floor: $24k financed or $21k cash
.

You forgot to add the cost of electricity....all that expenditure and then it cost a fortune to run the damn thing!!!!

 

[zinfamous]

I can't believe how much that stuff costs! Guess I'm lucky my sister married a plumbing/HVAC guy

Does your sister live near me?

 

[zinfamous]

You forgot to add the cost of electricity....all that expenditure and then it cost a fortune to run the damn thing!!!!

well, technically it should be significantly cheaper when compared to window AC units because there is less draft potential and leakiness...and central air as well because all of that ducting running throughout the house is a huge, huge, huge thermal loss, which means the system is running far more frequently because it is way less efficient.

But yeah, the initial install cost is just nuts. I don't see breaking even on energy costs any time soon with that install cost; especially compared to window units which are also technically single-zone units...which "should" be more efficient than central air.