Military readies plans to lift ban on transgender personnel

[pauldun170]

If we were having difficulty filling berths then I'd agree. Instead we're RIFfing again. Does anyone really believe that we cut the person in "transition" rather than the normal 18 to 24 year old male?

Put another way, does anyone believe an officer's career could survive making that choice given the inevitable television sob specials when the person in "transition" is deprived of his or her free meds when all he or she wants to do is serve his or her country?

The military's purpose is to kill people and break things, not to be fair or create social justice.

What happens if a soldier is in the field and does not have access to prescriptions that might be required for them to perform their duty reliably?

I think folks should think prior to making changes to policy allow recruits to serve who may rely on medication. I don't think anyone wants to hear shit from anybody who has problem getting the job done because "they can't source their meds while on deployment"


FYI: Low body fat and muscular physique does not automatically make someone a good soldier. Not an indication of endurance or getting shit done when shit hits the fan.

 

[Subyman]

I see it as the ultimate way to escape captivity. They would capture the roided out soldier, but after a week or so without his meds, he will shrink back into a girl with boobs. Then easily walk out of prison, no one the wiser.

 

[pauldun170]

I see it as the ultimate way to escape captivity. They would capture the roided out soldier, but after a week or so without his meds, he will shrink back into a girl with boobs. Then easily walk out of prison, no one the wiser.

lol

 

[werepossum]

What happens if a soldier is in the field and does not have access to prescriptions that might be required for them to perform their duty reliably?

I think folks should think prior to making changes to policy allow recruits to serve who may rely on medication. I don't think anyone wants to hear shit from anybody who has problem getting the job done because "they can't source their meds while on deployment"

FYI: Low body fat and muscular physique does not automatically make someone a good soldier. Not an indication of endurance or getting shit done when shit hits the fan.

Exactly.

 

[fskimospy]

Either he doesn't get his hormones and medical supervision, or someone else is shorted something. Many times lift capacity is limited (and time is always limited) and if something must be added, something else must be deleted.

The amount that must be added or deleted is trivial.

Please do your best to specify the anticipated logistical difficulties that will be encountered by units he is deployed with, because your opinion on this appears to be based on literally nothing other than a vague idea that military logistics exist.

I'm a thyroid cancer survivor and I feel the same way about myself. I have to take levothyroxin daily or I slow down and eventually die. I would not want myself or someone like myself accepted into the military because it's an additional factor to take into account. Someone has to take the time and logistical capacity to add my pills, which granted are very small and light, but if I don't get them my utility drops, eventually to nothing. Now I could be placed in a non-deployable slot, but that artificially limits the deployment flexibility.

Hormone replacement therapies can be taken as little as once every three months. Furthermore, there are no such 'slow down and die' changes that come from not continuing your hormone replacement therapies. Comparing this to thyroid replacement therapy is completely ridiculous.

FYI, Sgt. Ortega for example has already completed a tour with no reported problems.

As I asked before, can you provide me literally any factual basis whatsoever for your ideas that including HRT for trans personnel presents a logistical challenge that will in any way impede military operations? You appear to have decided that the military's decision to do this is foolish and based on political considerations based on absolutely nothing other than your own intuition.

My thought is that the military probably knows better than you do about this, wouldn't you say?

 

[werepossum]

The amount that must be added or deleted is trivial.

Please do your best to specify the anticipated logistical difficulties that will be encountered by units he is deployed with, because your opinion on this appears to be based on literally nothing other than a vague idea that military logistics exist.

Hormone replacement therapies can be taken as little as once every three months. Furthermore, there are no such 'slow down and die' changes that come from not continuing your hormone replacement therapies. Comparing this to thyroid replacement therapy is completely ridiculous.

FYI, Sgt. Ortega for example has already completed a tour with no reported problems.

As I asked before, can you provide me literally any factual basis whatsoever for your ideas that including HRT for trans personnel presents a logistical challenge that will in any way impede military operations? You appear to have decided that the military's decision to do this is foolish and based on political considerations based on absolutely nothing other than your own intuition.

My thought is that the military probably knows better than you do about this, wouldn't you say?

Do you really feel that "the military" woke up one morning and thought "Hey, you know what would make us an even more efficient fighting machine? Transgendered people, that's what. This is a top-down social justice construct.

As to logistics, let's compare a typical small unit deployed on the Iraqi border in Saudi Arabia, awaiting the start of a war. They have no refrigeration, no doctors except a platoon medic at the largest outpost and a battalion medical officer a hundred miles away. Their Class VIIIA comes from the states via C-17 to perhaps Prince Sultan. From there it is broken up into AO pallets and flown by C-130 to small forward bases, then repackaged again and chopped out to the brigade support battalion where it is repackaged yet again and sent by chopper to the battalion HHC. Anything particular to a particular soldier must be separated out again and forwarded with resupply runs by truck or chopper depending on area. If it requires refrigeration, either that soldier must be brought back to the rear or special accommodation must be made to add and support a field refrigerator, for which the unit will have neither transport nor a standard logistic package for fuel. If the medication requires medical supervision, then either that soldier must be brought back to the rear or an appropriate officer must be sent out.

Now let's start the war. Our soldier is on the move; battalion has a good idea where his unit is at any given time, brigade a hazy idea, and the support unit back in the states has an idea where he was a week ago as well as a very hazy idea where his unit is expected to be when their next pallet gets delivered. This is not at all trivial and is why the military transitioned to standardized pallet loads pushed out rather than customized pallet loads made up for each unit. When pallets are packed, they do not know which unit will get a particular pallet. But unless you advocate recruiting enough transgendered people to make it worthwhile to include hormones in every VIIIA pallet, we now must have a separate, unique packet which must be routed (with individual attention at each step) to that one soldier. Intact, having gotten neither too hot nor too cold, and soon enough that his or her natural hormones do not start playing hell with mood and concentration.

 

[fskimospy]

Do you really feel that "the military" woke up one morning and thought "Hey, you know what would make us an even more efficient fighting machine? Transgendered people, that's what. This is a top-down social justice construct.

Maybe people in the military realized there's no valid military reason to keep excluding these people so how about we stop kicking them out.

It says a lot that you weren't even able to think that perhaps we were (once again) excluding people from the military for specious reasons.

As to logistics, let's compare a typical small unit deployed on the Iraqi border in Saudi Arabia, awaiting the start of a war. They have no refrigeration, no doctors except a platoon medic at the largest outpost and a battalion medical officer a hundred miles away. Their Class VIIIA comes from the states via C-17 to perhaps Prince Sultan. From there it is broken up into AO pallets and flown by C-130 to small forward bases, then repackaged again and chopped out to the brigade support battalion where it is repackaged yet again and sent by chopper to the battalion HHC. Anything particular to a particular soldier must be separated out again and forwarded with resupply runs by truck or chopper depending on area. If it requires refrigeration, either that soldier must be brought back to the rear or special accommodation must be made to add and support a field refrigerator, for which the unit will have neither transport nor a standard logistic package for fuel. If the medication requires medical supervision, then either that soldier must be brought back to the rear or an appropriate officer must be sent out.

It does not require refrigeration and the containers can be subjected to boiling water without damage. (or at a minimum there are many types that do not). That took me literally 5 seconds to find out. Why did you write all this without even bothering to get basic information about the thing you're talking about?

Now let's start the war. Our soldier is on the move; battalion has a good idea where his unit is at any given time, brigade a hazy idea, and the support unit back in the states has an idea where he was a week ago as well as a very hazy idea where his unit is expected to be when their next pallet gets delivered. This is not at all trivial and is why the military transitioned to standardized pallet loads pushed out rather than customized pallet loads made up for each unit. When pallets are packed, they do not know which unit will get a particular pallet. But unless you advocate recruiting enough transgendered people to make it worthwhile to include hormones in every VIIIA pallet, we now must have a separate, unique packet which must be routed (with individual attention at each step) to that one soldier. Intact, having gotten neither too hot nor too cold, and soon enough that his or her natural hormones do not start playing hell with mood and concentration.

There are several testosterone supplements that act for 3 months or more at a time. On what medical basis are you saying that even if a soldier is out of contact for more than 3 months that their natural hormones will 'start playing hell with mood and concentration' in a way that will impede military effectiveness?

You're literally just creating military fanfic right now and presenting it as an argument.

 

[werepossum]

Maybe people in the military realized there's no valid military reason to keep excluding these people so how about we stop kicking them out.

It says a lot that you weren't even able to think that perhaps we were (once again) excluding people from the military for specious reasons.

It does not require refrigeration and the containers can be subjected to boiling water without damage. (or at a minimum there are many types that do not). That took me literally 5 seconds to find out. Why did you write all this without even bothering to get basic information about the thing you're talking about?

There are several testosterone supplements that act for 3 months or more at a time. On what medical basis are you saying that even if a soldier is out of contact for more than 3 months that their natural hormones will 'start playing hell with mood and concentration' in a way that will impede military effectiveness?

You're literally just creating military fanfic right now and presenting it as an argument.

So every transgendered person is going to be on hormones that last three months with no medical supervision required?

What about the cost of these hormones and the attendant medical care and surgery?

 

[xBiffx]

I see it as the ultimate way to escape captivity. They would capture the roided out soldier, but after a week or so without his meds, he will shrink back into a girl with boobs. Then easily walk out of prison, no one the wiser.

There's a TV show in there, I just know it. :hmm:

 

[Nebor]

Transgender service members have managed to deploy so far as a rare exception. The reality is that they cannot serve in an austere environment indefinitely. They'll be subject to the same limitations as diabetic servicemembers.

Hopefully this change just means that those currently serving will be supported in their transition but labeled "non-deployable." The last thing we need is people being recruited with documented gender identity disorders. Though I suppose such a situation would just cause people to hide their nature until they're into the military and then have the military fund their transition.

It strikes me as an expensive, impractical issue to push in a time where the Army is cutting 40,000 troops due to sequestration funding cuts. Is this what's good for the defense of the nation, or what's good for a tiny percentage of Americans' feelings?

 

[werepossum]

Transgender service members have managed to deploy so far as a rare exception. The reality is that they cannot serve in an austere environment indefinitely. They'll be subject to the same limitations as diabetic servicemembers.

Hopefully this change just means that those currently serving will be supported in their transition but labeled "non-deployable." The last thing we need is people being recruited with documented gender identity disorders. Though I suppose such a situation would just cause people to hide their nature until they're into the military and then have the military fund their transition.

It strikes me as an expensive, impractical issue to push in a time where the Army is cutting 40,000 troops due to sequestration funding cuts. Is this what's good for the defense of the nation, or what's good for a tiny percentage of Americans' feelings?

Wait - are you actually doubting Eskimospy's contention that this is a trivial problem which costs nothing? Obviously you know nothing about the armed forces, sirrah! (Or as they will henceforth be known, the Fun 'N' Fair Forces of Change, Hope and Transition.) Turning a woman into a man is absolutely no different than boosting a man's testosterone level, just inject some pellets and repeat every three months.

You are aware he is an expert in this field, right? (I know that because logistics management is an MOS and Eskimospy's an expert in literally everything; therefore he is not just a 92, he is THE 92, before whose vast knowledge all anti-logistical forces cower and pallets organize themselves - if they know what's good for them.)

 

[werepossum]

There's a TV show in there, I just know it. :hmm:

The Great Escape, Fashion Week edition.

Come for the armed aggression, stay for the breasts.

 

[boomerang]

You are aware he is an expert in this field, right? (I know that because logistics management is an MOS and Eskimospy's an expert in literally everything; therefore he is not just a 92, he is THE 92, before whose vast knowledge all anti-logistical forces cower and pallets organize themselves - if they know what's good for them.)

He's Mr. Google. All the knowledge of the world is merely one search away.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Not compatible with military requirements.....

They won't be working at Walmart or as the local bank teller.

 

[hal2kilo]

Transgender service members have managed to deploy so far as a rare exception. The reality is that they cannot serve in an austere environment indefinitely. They'll be subject to the same limitations as diabetic servicemembers.

Hopefully this change just means that those currently serving will be supported in their transition but labeled "non-deployable." The last thing we need is people being recruited with documented gender identity disorders. Though I suppose such a situation would just cause people to hide their nature until they're into the military and then have the military fund their transition.

It strikes me as an expensive, impractical issue to push in a time where the Army is cutting 40,000 troops due to sequestration funding cuts. Is this what's good for the defense of the nation, or what's good for a tiny percentage of Americans' feelings?

It really gets down to this. What's the total count of trans in the military. What expense or what system will they eliminate to make room for modifjed toilets and showers.

What operationally will be changed to accomodate an incredibly small minority.

 

[unokitty]

...It strikes me as an expensive, impractical issue to push in a time where the Army is cutting 40,000 troops due to sequestration funding cuts. Is this what's good for the defense of the nation, or what's good for a tiny percentage of Americans' feelings?

Issue has rather less to do with the Army.

Rather more to do with politicians that think that this issue can get them a few more votes from their favorite special interest groups...

Uno

 

[pauldun170]

What PT requirements do Transgender follow?

 

[JSt0rm]

Transgender service members have managed to deploy so far as a rare exception. The reality is that they cannot serve in an austere environment indefinitely. They'll be subject to the same limitations as diabetic servicemembers.

Hopefully this change just means that those currently serving will be supported in their transition but labeled "non-deployable." The last thing we need is people being recruited with documented gender identity disorders. Though I suppose such a situation would just cause people to hide their nature until they're into the military and then have the military fund their transition.

It strikes me as an expensive, impractical issue to push in a time where the Army is cutting 40,000 troops due to sequestration funding cuts. Is this what's good for the defense of the nation, or what's good for a tiny percentage of Americans' feelings?

defense of the nation? Dont you mean attack of other nations?

 

[Ackmed]

Absolutely terrible idea. I am currently in Quantico,VA. Headquarters of the Marine Corps in a class with 95 (had 97 dropped two to being fatties) other Marines. We break out into open discussions sometimes about this or that. A woman who "identifies" (stupid term) as a man and tried to be a Marine would not go over well based from personal experience. Especially based on which MOS he/she went to. Fact is females can't do everything physically men can do.

edit, and to claim that Ortega deployed with no problems on deployments, is because Ortega was on a big base. As an helicopter crew chief they don't go down range. Ortega was not without a good chow hall, gym, place to actually sleep. Which all effect working out. Washington post calling them "combat deployments" is misleading. Sure it can technically be in a combat zone, but no where near combat. Touchy subject for me.

 

[Subyman]

I really do wonder if full-on transgendered people should be in active duty. They are already rather selective in the health portion. The military does not accept persons with endocrine issues that require long term treatment, which I would think transgender treatments would fall under.

It has nothing to do with their psychological state, but the required medical treatments. It would also be a long term burden on the military health care system having to pay for a life time of medical treatment.

 

[JSt0rm]

Touchy subject for me.

 

[fskimospy]

Wait - are you actually doubting Eskimospy's contention that this is a trivial problem which costs nothing? Obviously you know nothing about the armed forces, sirrah! (Or as they will henceforth be known, the Fun 'N' Fair Forces of Change, Hope and Transition.) Turning a woman into a man is absolutely no different than boosting a man's testosterone level, just inject some pellets and repeat every three months.

You are aware he is an expert in this field, right? (I know that because logistics management is an MOS and Eskimospy's an expert in literally everything; therefore he is not just a 92, he is THE 92, before whose vast knowledge all anti-logistical forces cower and pallets organize themselves - if they know what's good for them.)

It's funny to watch you fail when simply asked to support your position. Instead you made up some military fanfic.

If you guys want to argue that supporting trans troops in the field is infeasible how about providing a single, solitary piece of evidence other than your own opinion?

Oh wait, that's a lot more work than whining about how someone told you that you should have spent a second looking up if testosterone needed to be refrigerated.

 

[fskimospy]

Transgender service members have managed to deploy so far as a rare exception. The reality is that they cannot serve in an austere environment indefinitely. They'll be subject to the same limitations as diabetic servicemembers.

Hopefully this change just means that those currently serving will be supported in their transition but labeled "non-deployable." The last thing we need is people being recruited with documented gender identity disorders. Though I suppose such a situation would just cause people to hide their nature until they're into the military and then have the military fund their transition.

It strikes me as an expensive, impractical issue to push in a time where the Army is cutting 40,000 troops due to sequestration funding cuts. Is this what's good for the defense of the nation, or what's good for a tiny percentage of Americans' feelings?

Why would trans members be subject to the same limitations as diabetic members? Can you provide any medical evidence to back this up?

 

[MongGrel]

The Great Escape, Fashion Week edition.

Come for the armed aggression, stay for the breasts.

:sneaky:

And I agree with everything you've posted on this one.

 

[MongGrel]

It really gets down to this. What's the total count of trans in the military. What expense or what system will they eliminate to make room for modifjed toilets and showers.

What operationally will be changed to accomodate an incredibly small minority.

And this.