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Military Has Discharged 26 Gay Linguists

R

Riprorin

Banned
Military Has Discharged 26 Gay Linguists

Associated Press/AP Online

SAN FRANCISCO - The number of Arabic linguists discharged from the military for violating its "don't ask, don't tell" policy is higher than previously reported, according to records obtained by a research group.

The group contends the records show that the military - at a time when it and U.S. intelligence agencies don't have enough Arabic speakers - is putting its anti-gay stance ahead of national security.

Between 1998 and 2004, the military discharged 20 Arabic and six Farsi speakers, according to Department of Defense data obtained by the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military under a Freedom of Information Act request.

Link

Note that it started in 1998 under the Clinton administration.
 
Are you going to just bleat and run like you do in your other threads? Or are you actually interested in people's reactions?
 
Originally posted by: JackStorm
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Note that it started in 1998 under the Clinton administration.
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Ah, let me guess. It's Clintons fault, right?
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More specifically, Clintons p*nis!

According to conservatives, it's been the cause of every single mistake that Bush has made (which is why Bush never admits to any of them--not his fault!) 😀
 
pretty OFN, but IMO, the "don't ask, don't tell" needs to be gotten rid of.
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Why? Having served in the military myself I consider it a matter of simple discipline, if not taste. I don't tell you about what I did with my girlfriend last night, likewise you don't need to tell me what you did with your boyfriend, it's not an issue unless you make it an issue. If you can't control your urges to maintain tact and discretion when it comes to something simple like your private life, why should I trust your judgement in combat?
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
pretty OFN, but IMO, the "don't ask, don't tell" needs to be gotten rid of.
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Why? Having served in the military myself I consider it a matter of simple discipline, if not taste. I don't tell you about what I did with my girlfriend last night, likewise you don't need to tell me what you did with your boyfriend, it's not an issue unless you make it an issue. If you can't control your urges to maintain tact and discretion when it comes to something simple like your private life, why should I trust your judgement in combat?
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isn't it a double standard, though? if you did decide to talk about your girlfriend, no one would bat an eye (I'm assuming).
 
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: glenn1
pretty OFN, but IMO, the "don't ask, don't tell" needs to be gotten rid of.
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Why? Having served in the military myself I consider it a matter of simple discipline, if not taste. I don't tell you about what I did with my girlfriend last night, likewise you don't need to tell me what you did with your boyfriend, it's not an issue unless you make it an issue. If you can't control your urges to maintain tact and discretion when it comes to something simple like your private life, why should I trust your judgement in combat?
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isn't it a double standard, though? if you did decide to talk about your girlfriend, no one would bat an eye (I'm assuming).
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...but "telling" is an essential part of the macho military subculture.

Trust me on this one. I represent soldiers. They love to tell of their sexual conquests.
 
isn't it a double standard, though? if you did decide to talk about your girlfriend, no one would bat an eye (I'm assuming).
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Neither I nor anyone I've met in the military would much care if (again) you're discrete about it. There's a zone of privacy among soldiers when it comes to personal affairs, and if gay Private Joe wants to say he and Charles went to see a football game together (or whatever you did that weekend) that's fine. Likewise his straight counterpart could say he and Susan went to the beach that weekend and that's fine too. But if Private Snuffy decides he wants to tell us about the orgy he participated in that weekend (be it gay or straight) then that privacy zone goes away.

The guys who are discrete and don't talk explicitly about their sexual escapades aren't the guys who get kicked out if they're gay. The guys who get administratively discharged for homosexuality fall into one of two categories. One way is to get caught in the act of having sex in the barracks (straight soldiers are punished for this too), if you are too stupid to get a hotel room for the night then you get what you deserve. The second are those who throw the discretion out the window, and want to come out of the closet and openly announce to the world that they are gay and don't care who knows. That turns it from being their own business into a spotlight issue, basically deciding they want to take on the "don't ask don't tell ban." A similar scenario would be that adultery is a punishable offense in the military. No one is going to care if you keep it to yourself, and no one will follow you around to see if you're screwing around on your spouse. But likewise you can't decide "f#ck it, I don't care who knows" and bring your coworker's spouse to the military ball or to a tea party with the general's wife and not get burned for it.
 
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: JackStorm
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Note that it started in 1998 under the Clinton administration.
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Ah, let me guess. It's Clintons fault, right?
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Clinton implemented the "don't ask, don't tell policy" didn't he?
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Looks like riprorin posted and ran.... again.
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This is confusing.

He is supporting Gays to still Bash Clinton to keep W off the hook for anything??? 😕
 
...but "telling" is an essential part of the macho military subculture.

Trust me on this one. I represent soldiers. They love to tell of their sexual conquests.
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You need to think from the perspective of an army leader like a sergeant or officer. As a former sergeant myself, I could give a rats ass what privates talk about amongst each other. Go ahead and tell your barracks mates about your personal life. Privates don't start discharge procedings, sergeants and officers do, so they can tell each other conquest stories all they want and I don't care so long as they're not telling them in front of me.

If Private Joe comes to me in my office and says "Private Snuffy is gay" I'll toss him out on his ass. But if Private Snuffy comes in my office telling me he's gay or about his weekend orgy, then it's time to send him to the CO to be discharged. Ditto if Private Snuffy brings me a copy of his marriage certificate and request for base housing for him and his new husband. Or if he winds up in photo on the front page of the paper in uniform and french kissing his boyfriend while marching in the gay pride parade and the old man has to bring me in the office and ask me "isn't this Private Snuffy?"
 
I have a question about don't ask don't tell. Do all people who ask also get automatically discharged, or just those who tell?
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
...but "telling" is an essential part of the macho military subculture.

Trust me on this one. I represent soldiers. They love to tell of their sexual conquests.
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You need to think from the perspective of an army leader like a sergeant or officer. As a former sergeant myself, I could give a rats ass what privates talk about amongst each other. Go ahead and tell your barracks mates about your personal life. Privates don't start discharge procedings, sergeants and officers do, so they can tell each other conquest stories all they want and I don't care so long as they're not telling them in front of me.

If Private Joe comes to me in my office and says "Private Snuffy is gay" I'll toss him out on his ass. But if Private Snuffy comes in my office telling me he's gay or about his weekend orgy, then it's time to send him to the CO to be discharged. Ditto if Private Snuffy brings me a copy of his marriage certificate and request for base housing for him and his new husband. Or if he winds up in photo on the front page of the paper in uniform and french kissing his boyfriend while marching in the gay pride parade and the old man has to bring me in the office and ask me "isn't this Private Snuffy?"
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Point taken. But there is no discipline for relating tales of heterosexual sexual conquest.
 
Point taken. But there is no discipline for relating tales of heterosexual sexual conquest.
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Again, it depends on what you say. If you're telling your sergeant or officers about your frolics with the opposite sex, probably all that's going to happen is we're going to tell you to STFU or punish you summarily to get the point across to keep your mouth shut about that kind of stuff in front of us since we don't want to hear it. But if you're telling sexual conquest stories that involve prohibited activity (homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, necrophilia, adultery, etc) then you're going to be brought up on charges.

What you're missing is that it's not the activity itself that gets people in trouble, it's the nature of it. And the common thread still comes down to that if you hadn't shot off your big mouth about it (or got caught in the act of doing it) then no one would have known and you wouldn't have been punished for it. You can argue about whether some of the activities shouldn't be on the list and I won't necessarily disagree with you, but until they change the list it's not like it's some mystery what's going to get you in trouble. And that's the crux of it, that you knew that engaging in activity _____ was against the rules and you did it anyway, and then told me about it. Rule #1 in the military is obey the rules. Rule #2 is that if you don't obey the rules and don't get caught, don't brag about how you didn't obey them.
 
if i found myself in todays army, i'd hit on my CO, just to get thrown right back out.
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That's the cowards way out. If you were a real man you'd hit on the sergeant major. That way he can kick your ass, then have you thrown out 😉
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
if i found myself in todays army, i'd hit on my CO, just to get thrown right back out.
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That's the cowards way out. If you were a real man you'd hit on the sergeant major. That way he can kick your ass, then have you thrown out 😉
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Whatever works... 😉
 
Ok the dont ask dont tell policy has been around long enough, all service members know about it and trust me, they really think nonething of it. Yes the military does studies and we know that there are gay service members within our ranks. Many of us do not give a rats ass as long as they can do their job and keep it hidden.
In my 20+ years I have come across a few and have had no problem with them.It seems that the senior leadership within the military are the one who refuse to change or accept the issue.
Unless you have been within the ranks of the military, it is actually hard to describe daily life and the bond you form with your follow service member. I can only speak for myself as a Marine.
I do not ask questions about sexual orientation. I do not discuss it with the troops. We have a seperation within our ranks and this is just not done at least in my unit.
Now if Jonny Blow comes into my office and says he's gay, I'd probally chew his ass, put him on a working party and call his platoon sergeant. I would get into the platoon sergeants ass and ask him about his Marine. If he didn't know, trust me he would find out and fast.
Haveing the person say it does not mean he will be kicked out the next day, these things take time. It would be totally different should SNM come in with his lover and both claim that they play "But Darts" in the evening. This would warrent attention from the 1st Sgt and probally the SgtMaj.
This is far from being in the past, it comes up all over the place and we continue to dismiss troops.
Just let it be known that if you have sugar in your tanks, the military might not be the place for you......
 
And of those 26, probably one was actually gay. The other 25 used the system to relieve themselves of their military obligation. Don't tell the Libs though, that would ruin their blame party!
 
Back in the 90's (during my first stint) there was a guy in my Company that wanted out realllll bad. First, he told the Commander that he was a dope fiend. That backfired becuase he confessed before getting caught. They dumped him into counseling and rehab (mandatory six months of counseling after rehab). He continued to piss "hot" for a six month time after that, so back to rehab he went. Next he claimed to be gay (though he wasn't) and have active homosexual relationships. He was told if they caught him actively practicing homosexual activities, he would be either disciplined or discharged. He continued with his claim to anyone that would listen, but being already labeled by his counselor as mentally unstable, his claims got him a medically unfit discharge instead of a gay or drug discharge. He finally got discharged after two years of trying. He recieved a General Discharge under less than Honorable Conditions, likely due to the repetitive drug issues.

Point is that it is not easy to get out of the Army, and those 26 soldiers were either better at shamming/faking than the soldier in my unit, or were openly caught with their pants down, in a compromising position.
 
Originally posted by: maluckey
Back in the 90's (during my first stint) there was a guy in my Company that wanted out realllll bad. First, he told the Commander that he was a dope fiend. That backfired becuase he confessed before getting caught. They dumped him into counseling and rehab (mandatory six months of counseling after rehab). He continued to piss "hot" for a six month time after that, so back to rehab he went. Next he claimed to be gay (though he wasn't) and have active homosexual relationships. He was told if they caught him actively practicing homosexual activities, he would be either disciplined or discharged. He continued with his claim to anyone that would listen, but being already labeled by his counselor as mentally unstable, his claims got him a medically unfit discharge instead of a gay or drug discharge. He finally got discharged after two years of trying. He recieved a General Discharge under less than Honorable Conditions, likely due to the repetitive drug issues.

Point is that it is not easy to get out of the Army, and those 26 soldiers were either better at shamming/faking than the soldier in my unit, or were openly caught with their pants down, in a compromising position.
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In today's climate, it's rather too easy to get discharged for "being gay", or at least claiming to be. While the UCMJ requires that an inquiry be made into the declaration, it's almost always perfunctory and merely a few questions of the person claiming "gayness". The military doesn't want to keep someone in who doesn't want to be there, and it also doesn't want to be heavy handed with the gay issue. I've worked in two different legal offices, and my outlook has been confirmed, or at least not discounted, by two different JAGs (one on this board).

Think about it. If someone is gay and wants to serve, they serve. If they want out of the military, they find a way, and the "don't tell" policy provides that exit. Out of the dozens of cases I saw, maybe 5% involved being "caught in the act", and the majority of those were females.
 
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: JackStorm
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Note that it started in 1998 under the Clinton administration.
Click to expand...

Ah, let me guess. It's Clintons fault, right?
Click to expand...

Clinton implemented the "don't ask, don't tell policy" didn't he?
Click to expand...

I certainly had the impression that 'don't ask, don't tell' was an unwelcome compromise between the RIGHT policy, of simply allowing gays in the military, and continuing with the discriminatory policy already in place.
 
It's not a matter of right or wrong, so much as unit integrity and cohesion. This is also one of the reasons that females are not in ground combat units. The soldiers must be considered "equal".

Gays are serving in the Army, but if they upset the balance in a combat unit, they SHOULD be booted to a position where they are not a distraction.
 
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