Mike Rowe addresses Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on Skilled Labor

[bunnyfubbles]

I have to say, he is VERY spot on.

450,000 "skilled" job vacancies in the US because vocational skills are frowned upon, considered "second class", and virtually ignored in education today. Everybody wants to make their millions in high tech industry these days, but the truth is that, as Mike pointed out, in the near future a plumber will cost you more per hour than your psychologist.

Like his show says, it's a dirty job, but someone has got to do it.

yeah, someone has to do it...at least until people in the high tech industry develop robots to do it

 

[PingSpike]

Increased support of vocation education in K-12 might accidentally help boys and would be contrary to the current system of misting them with zombie making ADHD meds and dumping them in the basement at the first sign of an outburst of energy. So that isn't going to happen.

 

[PingSpike]

And this is part of the problem. It literally takes about 4 years of hard labor before you can become a Journeyman.

That's right! Only 4 years of meh pay before you can make good money and have no debt! Sounds like a bargain compared to spending 4 years making no money to get a degree that gets you no job and leaves you tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

 

[Jimmah]

Mr. Rowe nailed it, too few value the trades vs degrees. I know this firsthand, as I went to school to be a CNC programmer and machinist. The guy with no experience modeling, designing or actual fabrication but has a 4 year degree gets the position, while my entire class save one guy is stuck making min. wage pressing the green button and loading stock.

It is a shameful state of affairs, the value of the hands-on aspect of knowledge is being lost. One day when the costs are so high to get a simple drain installed maybe then will things turn around.

 

[chucky2]

Why would they be high? We've let ourselves be illegally invaded by Millions who will do the job - right or wrong - for much less.

 

[Throckmorton]

With a shovel, in a ditch. You have to put your time in with a pro to learn the trade which means grunt work for as long as it takes. The pay will suck until you can get your journeyman's license.

My bro is $85/hr for service calls.

I wanted to get into surveying, but I discovered you have to be an apprentice for years.

Are you kidding me? I spent 4 years getting a geography degree and 3 years mapping survey data, but I have to be an indentured servant for as long as it takes to get a PhD??

 

[werepossum]

Say one wants to become a plumber, where should one start?

Look up your local union. Trade unions have the best training programs. Basically, you work each day as an apprentice, starting as a laborer and increasing as your learn more. Several nights a week you attend school, typically on your own time but at union expense (tuition and books.) You'll spend four to seven years depending on the union and the trade, but you'll be earning an income the whole time, and at the end if you're reasonably smart, ambitious, and a good worker you'll be a reasonably highly paid tradesman. It's not instant gratification and you'll earn your own way, but it's satisfying, honest work and you'll almost always have work.

Well, as long as the trade unions can keep out illegals and untrained laborers. In some areas the union has become too weak to require training and you'll find one journeyman and a couple dozen illegals on a job.

 

[piasabird]

Just drive to Lowes and hire a hard working Mexican. Maybe all your pipes will be leaking after the job and maybe not. If you need any real plumbing work to be done maybe, it is woth paying the money. Maybe you should demand to see their Union ID if they want Union Wages! Then call the Union and verify thier status.

 

[highland145]

I wanted to get into surveying, but I discovered you have to be an apprentice for years.

Are you kidding me? I spent 4 years getting a geography degree and 3 years mapping survey data, but I have to be an indentured servant for as long as it takes to get a PhD??

Agree that sucks but mess up some guys property line and you might get shot. Daniel Boone, IIRC, got into trouble for this.

No idea what they make. Heard it was by the foot surveyed.

 

[Triumph]

Look up your local union. Trade unions have the best training programs. Basically, you work each day as an apprentice, starting as a laborer and increasing as your learn more. Several nights a week you attend school, typically on your own time but at union expense (tuition and books.) You'll spend four to seven years depending on the union and the trade, but you'll be earning an income the whole time, and at the end if you're reasonably smart, ambitious, and a good worker you'll be a reasonably highly paid tradesman. It's not instant gratification and you'll earn your own way, but it's satisfying, honest work and you'll almost always have work.

Well, as long as the trade unions can keep out illegals and untrained laborers. In some areas the union has become too weak to require training and you'll find one journeyman and a couple dozen illegals on a job.

A friend of mine got his electrician job that way, he's been out of work for over a year. And he's something like #450 on the list of union electricians in line for the next job.

 

[chucky2]

Well, sometimes it's not that simple. It goes a lot easier if you know someone in the union who's in good graces with the powers that be. Otherwise, you might remain #450 on the list forever.... (just the way it works)

 

[Cogman]

That's right! Only 4 years of meh pay before you can make good money and have no debt! Sounds like a bargain compared to spending 4 years making no money to get a degree that gets you no job and leaves you tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

Its not about the Meh pay. It is about the 4 years doing the same work for peanuts without actually learning a whole lot. By probably about the 4th or 5th month of working you will have done 90% of all the different tasks required of you. After the first year, you'll pretty much have the experience that you really need. The rest is just dealing with someone that pulled a number out and said "Hmm, they should work for THIS long".

For someone that is totally immersed in a new language (IE the pack their bags and move to another country and have minimal to no use of their native language), it takes about 4 months to a year for them to learn the language well enough to be conversational in it. Do you really expect me to believe that learning how to be a plumber is more difficult than learning a new language?

 

[werepossum]

A friend of mine got his electrician job that way, he's been out of work for over a year. And he's something like #450 on the list of union electricians in line for the next job.

Crap, where are you located?

If I were out of work for a year I'd become a traveler. There's always a need for journeyman tradesmen somewhere, and his union should be able to tell him where.

 

[Throckmorton]

Agree that sucks but mess up some guys property line and you might get shot. Daniel Boone, IIRC, got into trouble for this.

No idea what they make. Heard it was by the foot surveyed.

The average is $62k, and they get to work outside all day.

I'm pretty sure I could take a class to learn a few of the details, read the instruction manuals for the equipment, and survey your property as well as a certified surveyor.

How much time does the military spend training soldiers how to navigate by compass? It's basically the same thing but with higher precision. It should be 4 weeks not 4 years. It would make sense to work as a technician for a few years and work your way up to that $62k salary, but the apprenticeship system is bogus. I'm with Cogman, it's a waste of time.

 

[Triumph]

Crap, where are you located?

If I were out of work for a year I'd become a traveler. There's always a need for journeyman tradesmen somewhere, and his union should be able to tell him where.

He's in Pittsburgh. Also I admit he's pretty lazy and content to sit on unemployment for as long as it lasts, haha. I don't know what the journeyman aspect of the trade is, but he's not even allowed to do personal work on the side as an electrician (because that's taking work away from another union member). Maybe that rule dissolves if he moves to another union chapter? I dunno.

 

[Baasha]

450,000 "skilled" job vacancies in the US because vocational skills are frowned upon, considered "second class", and virtually ignored in education today. Everybody wants to make their millions in high tech industry these days, but the truth is that, as Mike pointed out, in the near future a plumber will cost you more per hour than your psychologist.

Like his show says, it's a dirty job, but someone has got to do it.

A great reason as to why the caste system is so perfect. People have different tendencies and strengths. To realize that and utilize it to benefit oneself and the society at large is what life is about. Mere conspicuous consumption and self-aggrandizing goals will lead to a lot of heart and head ache.

 

[Patranus]

The solution is simple. Impose tarrifs on underpriced foreign goods and create a guest worker program so the currently illegal immigrants have rights and are subject to the minimum wage.

You fail to realize that offshoring creates jobs in the United States.

There are many companies that are located in the United States that would not be able to stay in business if they were unable to offshore part of their operation.

 

[1prophet]

A great reason as to why the caste system is so perfect. People have different tendencies and strengths. To realize that and utilize it to benefit oneself and the society at large is what life is about. Mere conspicuous consumption and self-aggrandizing goals will lead to a lot of heart and head ache.

Tell us about this perfect caste system and skin color.

 

[pcgeek11]

He's in Pittsburgh. Also I admit he's pretty lazy and content to sit on unemployment for as long as it lasts, haha. I don't know what the journeyman aspect of the trade is, but he's not even allowed to do personal work on the side as an electrician (because that's taking work away from another union member). Maybe that rule dissolves if he moves to another union chapter? I dunno.

The bolded part is the really screwed up part! The union will not give him work, but he is not allowed to get work in his skill set on his own? That my friend is just stupid. Give me a right to work state any day. I don't need some asshole in a suit and tie telling me what I can and cannot do, esp when I have to pay union dues on top of it.

For the love of god, I need some union lovers to tell me how this is a good thing.

 

[Patranus]

The bolded part is the really screwed up part! The union will not give him work, but he is not allowed to get work in his skill set on his own? That my friend is just stupid. Give me a right to work state any day. I don't need some asshole in a suit and tie telling me what I can and cannot do, esp when I have to pay union dues on top of it.

For the love of god, I need some union lovers to tell me how this is a good thing.

Couple that with big labors backing of amnesty and it boggles the mind why anyone would support big labor.

 

[novasatori]

Look up your local union. Trade unions have the best training programs. Basically, you work each day as an apprentice, starting as a laborer and increasing as your learn more. Several nights a week you attend school, typically on your own time but at union expense (tuition and books.) You'll spend four to seven years depending on the union and the trade, but you'll be earning an income the whole time, and at the end if you're reasonably smart, ambitious, and a good worker you'll be a reasonably highly paid tradesman. It's not instant gratification and you'll earn your own way, but it's satisfying, honest work and you'll almost always have work.

Well, as long as the trade unions can keep out illegals and untrained laborers. In some areas the union has become too weak to require training and you'll find one journeyman and a couple dozen illegals on a job.

Great information, thanks.

 

[werepossum]

The bolded part is the really screwed up part! The union will not give him work, but he is not allowed to get work in his skill set on his own? That my friend is just stupid. Give me a right to work state any day. I don't need some asshole in a suit and tie telling me what I can and cannot do, esp when I have to pay union dues on top of it.

For the love of god, I need some union lovers to tell me how this is a good thing.

The idea is that if union tradesmen are free to take jobs at non-union shops for lower wages, fewer union jobs will come back. It's a balancing act. For example, our local unions allow union members to take non-union jobs (they are still required to pay their union dues) when times are really bad, but in general it's usually an all-or-nothing thing. Some places it's completely an all-or-nothing thing and absolutely no non-union work (or indeed any work outside the union system, even non-competing things like rough carpentry or yard work.) Unions have different strengths and different levels of common sense in different areas, but in most areas in which I've worked, the trade unions have been a net positive and union shops deliver a better product and a more pleasurable project for everyone.

Great information, thanks.

No problem. Good luck with it if you decide to pursue.

 

[DrPizza]

Its not about the Meh pay. It is about the 4 years doing the same work for peanuts without actually learning a whole lot. By probably about the 4th or 5th month of working you will have done 90% of all the different tasks required of you. After the first year, you'll pretty much have the experience that you really need. The rest is just dealing with someone that pulled a number out and said "Hmm, they should work for THIS long".

That might be true in some of the simplest cases - household wiring or household plumbing. But in some of the trades, it really does take several years before they've had sufficient experience in most of the areas that they need to become experts in. I'll used my son as an example. He's been in the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers for roughly 10 months. Every time he comes home for the weekend, he tells me about all the new stuff he's learned, the classes he's taking, etc. He's never worked in a substation or built a new substation as far as I know; has very limited time working on underground lines. I think that right now, he's doing some sort of transmission line work. That means weeks or even months of replacing 70 foot towers (which apparently sometimes go across swamps.) After a few days of that, he knows all his job duties. And, he'll be practicing those job duties for a long time.

There is, however, the opportunity for shortcuts. Someone can enroll in one of the linesman schools in the country; there are a handful. (I'm not sure what's available for the other trades.) In 4 or 5 months, as you mention, they graduate having learned 90% of the necessary skills. It's not on the job training; nothing productive is being done. Therefore, you pay for that training out of your pocket. (I think it's about $16k)

"Meh" pay?? I believe he started at around $25 an hour and tops out somewhere over $40 within 4 years. So, say he averages $32 an hour for those 4 years... He's already over $250,000 ahead of a college student who has a full scholarship. At the end of those 4 years, he'll be out-earning the majority of new college grads, and that's for full-time work and doesn't include overtime. With overtime, those guys can bring home up to about $9k a week (before taxes.) Of course, it's relatively dangerous work. I'm not sure which is more dangerous - being a police officer, or doing what he does. But, most of the danger is within his own control.

 

[ShawnD1]

That's right! Only 4 years of meh pay before you can make good money and have no debt! Sounds like a bargain compared to spending 4 years making no money to get a degree that gets you no job and leaves you tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

Pretty much this. Even first year electrical apprentices make at least 40k per year. It's really not that bad. The hard part is finding someone who will take you on as their apprentice.
That's part of why trades pay so well. Any asshole can go get an engineering degree or a nursing degree, but you can't even begin training as a tradesman until you've convinced someone that they should take you on.


Those of you saying you don't want an apprentice wiring your house, tough shit. When electricians are hired to do large amounts of work (like building a house from scratch), changes are pretty high that it's 1 journeyman and a bunch of apprentices. The apprentices do 99% of the work and the journeyman checks that it's done right and signs papers saying it was done properly.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Mike Rowe is on the money. If you have the right skills and experience (no degree) today you can make more than an engineer.