Mid level HTPC build - Need help picking out a CPU/Mobo & Case!

[mosox]

Not sure how you can say that when its HQV score is 128 vs the the 5550's 134. As I'm sure you're aware, the LLano GPU is very close to a Radeon 55xx in terms of performance and feature set. Now, if 1080p/24 content is important to you (i.e. you have a set capable of displaying it), I can see the justification for AMD/Nvidia graphics.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/g...nchmark-2-0-analysis-ati-nvidia-and-intel/43/

http://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/HQV.jpg

 

[aoommen]

Has anyone used or have heard about these Motherboards - ECS A75-M2 Socket FM1 A75 mATX AMD Motherboard? It is sold out on Newegg!

It is by far the cheapest I have seen with 6 - SATA III connectors and a USB 3.0 on board header as well as 2 USB 3.0 ports?

Would I regret it if I use this instead of AS Rock board I was planning on - it would save me $22 on the build, hence the question?

Any comments on the above MoBo - it has a 3 year warranty but I've had no experience or familiarity with the brand - so anyone who has worked with this brand/product please comment on their reliability and quality please? Or should I just spend the extra and stick with the AS Rock?

 

[fffblackmage]

My first experience with an ECS mobo was very negative, but that was nearly a decade ago. I had another ECS mobo more recently and it worked just ok, but it was quite lackluster and minimalistic (well, it was a budget-oriented mobo, so I guess it was to be expected). I would say I would consider them only if I was severely constrained by budget, otherwise, I would would stick with the AsRock and other better-known brands.

 

[mfenn]

http://www.kitguru.net/components/g...nchmark-2-0-analysis-ati-nvidia-and-intel/43/

http://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/HQV.jpg

Those tests are with "Intel HD Graphics" from a Clarkdale, which is a very different (and worse) beast than the graphics in a Sandy Bridge.

 

[aoommen]

My first experience with an ECS mobo was very negative, but that was nearly a decade ago. I had another ECS mobo more recently and it worked just ok, but it was quite lackluster and minimalistic (well, it was a budget-oriented mobo, so I guess it was to be expected). I would say I would consider them only if I was severely constrained by budget, otherwise, I would would stick with the AsRock and other better-known brands.

Thanks fffblackmage, that is what I wanted to know! I think I would end up going with the AS Rock. Have you ever had a reason to RMA one of those boards or contact ECS customer support?

 

[aoommen]

Those tests are with "Intel HD Graphics" from a Clarkdale, which is a very different (and worse) beast than the graphics in a Sandy Bridge.

@ mfenn - You are missing the point again for the 95th time, in fact since this thread was started (or since I did not take your suggestion of the G620) you have missed the point.

Nobody here ever said that the Llano platform is the answer to all our prayers or is the best CPU available. All mosox or me or the countless number of tech writers, researchers or anyone else said was:

As mosox wrote: The Intel IGP is much worse than the Llano's not just in terms of performance but also in terms of image quality.

Now as you said it might be my English that is causing you the difficulty to understand, so here is someone else's words:

In other words that is exactly what the author says below (this is a Tom's Hardware Review article- a very reputable source for this kind of information):

Tom's Hardware Review Article: Conclusion: Llano Brings A Lot Of Potential To The Table -11:00 PM - June 13, 2011 by Don Woligroski

"the A-series APU really does bring discrete-class graphics to the table, and the economy of combining these components can’t be denied."

Exactly what I've been saying for the entire post - the economy, if I can get more of what I want (IGP) for the same or less amount of money and I don't care about the CPU part (which I did not), then Llano is the best value for money option out there.

Same thing said in different words here, hope you get one of these, since as you said my English might be bad - I'm giving you 2 versions of the same idea:

aoommen wrote: "Again the reason why I went with AMD is because IT COSTS THE SAME AS THE G-620, and for that same amount of money it gives me more, irrespective of the fact whether I use all that right away or not, I think it is a no-brainer to choose the "more for the same price" option!"

The author, Don Woligroski, ends his Llano review with this:

So, what’s the final verdict? Llano has the potential to introduce impressive graphics-oriented value to the low/mid-range market; this APU easily outclasses Intel HD Graphics 3000.

He also compares the CPU part and says this:

At the same time, Llano will forever be squeezed into the lower echelons of mainstream on the desktop by a superior Intel CPU matched up to faster discrete graphics cards. This doesn’t matter much to the folks chasing low prices, but we’ll have to wait for Trinity to see if AMD can come up with an APU that can simultaneously challenge Intel’s processing capabilities as it wipes the floor with its on-die graphics.

OR, from another source; a tech news reporters words:

From the article "AMD unveils CPU GPU Fusion [Llano]
Author: Tarandeep Singh on February 9, 2010"
Intel barely has any integrated GPU for 2011. Unless Intel buys NVIDIA, I don’t see them leading this segment.

Read more here

Here is one more from Techspot - AMD A8-3850 Llano APU Review:

In January, Intel's Sandy Bridge processors earned some serious respect for achieving significant improvements over its long-mocked embedded solutions. Despite making great strides in the graphics department, Sandy Bridge still had some ground to cover before marginalizing entry-level video cards.

Now halfway through 2011, AMD seems to have traveled that distance with its A8-3850, consistently outperforming discrete cards such as the GeForce GT 520 and Radeon HD 6450. Meanwhile, it's not even fair to compare the A8-3850 and Core i7 2600K -- A8's GPU performance (Radeon HD 6550D vs HD Graphics 3000) is simply on another level.

I can keep going with similar quotes, but hopefully you have got the point now.

Please for everyone's sake, especially mine - as I started this thread, read the 20+ reviews/benchmarks linked through out this thread above, and try to accept the fact that while the Intel CPU's are much better CPU's, for on board graphics Llano "wipes the floor with Intel's on-die graphics." - not my words!

It is pretty straight forward if you spend a minute to think about it - that an APU build with a single purpose of having better IGP (50% of Llano transistors are allocated to the GPU) would indeed have a BETTER IGP; than a CPU which is built to be powerful in other areas and vice-versa.

AMD had to allocate half of the A8-3850's transistors to the Radeon HD 6550D

Thanks to you refusing to understand simple common sense (as stated above) or any scientific or empirical study findings or results, 90% of this thread is devoted to helping you get what the entire world (Intel included) seems to have got and lived with! Now, it can't be my language skills that is making all this "hard to understand" for you, can it? If it is I deeply apologize.

Please take this as a request and STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD, and start one on your own if you love arguing so much, and maybe after 15 or 20 more posts there with the same evidence/studies presented here, you might get it at last! Or else an easier way might be for you to actually spend some time reading the linked articles from here itself!

I am trying to build a system here and that is the reason why this thread was started, so let us, me and others willing to help me with the build, please do that!

Please take it down a notch. It's fine to disagree, but there's no need for a GH thread to get this heated. Everyone is trying to help in their own way

-Thanks
ViRGE

 

[fffblackmage]

^Whoa, calm down. All he did was point out that Clarkdale IGP isn't the same as Sandy Bridge IGP.

Thanks fffblackmage, that is what I wanted to know! I think I would end up going with the AS Rock. Have you ever had a reason to RMA one of those boards or contact ECS customer support?

I never had to contact ECS. Back then, I was able to return the DOA mobo back to the store I bought it from.

 

[aoommen]

^Whoa, calm down. All he did was point out that Clarkdale IGP isn't the same as Sandy Bridge IGP.

Please read the entire thread - you would see why that is not even close to the truth! That is not all that he has said, despite being proved wrong multiple times, all I'm asking is to move his baseless arguments to his own thread and leave this one alone!

I'm convinced as far as the build is concerned that Llano is the way to go for my needs, and it definitely has a better IGP than any of the Intel processors within the same price range! So this arguing for the sake of arguing does not help this thread!

I never had to contact ECS. Back then, I was able to return the DOA mobo back to the store I bought it from.

Thanks for that info - I was reading this article - looks like they are fairly close when compared! Might give it a try!

 

[Zap]

I would also vote for the Silverstone Grandia GD05 or GD06 (different face plates). I used to have the Antec NSK2480 as my HTPC case. I liked it, but the "problem" was that it is very "deep." Basically the cables coming out the back of the case was pressed against the wall. The Grandia cases are not as deep, by a couple inches.

How about the Silverstone Milo ML03B?
Newegg has nice pictures
Amazon has same price but saves $15 in shipping

PRO:
Looks really nice!
Slim is sexy.
Can use normal desktop drives.
Uses normal ATX PSU.
Cheap!

CON:
An inch deeper than the Grandia cases (but still not as deep as the Antec).
Low profile expansion slots (if you ever want to make it a gaming rig, out of luck).
Doesn't come with case fans (can take 4x 80mm, though probably not needed for Sandy Bridge).

Regarding CPU, I do agree that the AMD APUs are quite compelling options. However, for the stated purposes I would personally still go with the Pentium G620 (or similar Sandy Bridge CPU). The reasons are:
1) The extra cores and graphics of the AMD APUs (why it "wins" those benchmarks) are not needed for your stated purposes.
2) The stock fan can be quieter on the Sandy Bridge CPUs.
3) Lower power draw across the board and lower temperature output, combined with ability to run higher temperatures (saves electricity + can run CPU fan really slow).
4) More suitable (due to less power/heat) for use in smaller cases with less ventilation, like the Milo.

 

[aoommen]

CPU Choice - A4 Llano: Bought @ Microcenter for $76 (incl. Tax)! So this is already bought, appreciate all the good discussion points you folks bought up, had me reconsider many times and I'm sold on this! Any more discussion on the CPU here would be futile!

The extra cores and graphics of the AMD APUs (why it "wins" those benchmarks) are not needed for your stated purposes.

- PRICE, PRICE, PRICE!
I would still pay the same for an G620 and the A4, but A4 has a better IGP - even if I don't use all the muscle provided - it is good to have it especially for the same price. The details and rationale are given in the numerous posts above! If the G620 would have been $20 cheaper - would have bought it already!

I never compared the CPU performance of the Llano's with the Intel ones it was the IGP that I was comparing! In fact even with extra cores the Llano is pretty primitive compared to the Sandy Bridge ones when we compare processor abilities - as stated in the above post, but they are certainly more superior in IGP and for the same price, so I would get it! In fact if it has better processor abilities as well because of the cores (A4 is also a dual core) as you mentioned then it is all the more reason to get it for the same price as the G620 right?

Lower power draw across the board and lower temperature output, combined with ability to run higher temperatures (saves electricity + can run CPU fan really slow).

- makes perfect sense! The A4 has the same TDP as the lower end Sandy bridge CPU's - 65 W as I had mentioned in an earlier post -

aoommen wrote: TDP of 65W same as the Pentium G620 - instead of quad core I switched to dual core - AMD A4 3400

What it also has is an IGP of AMD Radeon HD 6410D which is superior to the HD 2000 on G620 - what if I don't use all the power it gives, I'm paying the same for both!

So it makes sense to me to switch to a lower TDP rated Llano than a lower TDP rated Pentium!

Anyways as I mentioned I did pick up the CPU yesterday and the PSU today - Corsair from newegg, linked in OP, the promo was getting over today!

Case Selection: Yet TBD, not purchased yet, please focus on this if you will!

@ Zap - Thanks for the links and the suggestions on the Milo, it had been linked above a couple of times as well!

It is a good case I was looking at it at, but my issues with this case are:

1) no fans included
2) even if I add them - only 80 mm fans - 4x80mm on high - fan noise is a concern!

My main issue with that case are those 80mm fans. Quiet 80mm fans don't usually move a lot of air and 80mm fans that push a decent amount of air tends to be loud. Not to mention that if you do fill that case up with hard drives, all that warmed air is gonna be dumped straight into the case where those 80mm fans won't be able to fully pump out.

- this is from the hardocp forum discussing HTPC cases and fan noise levels!

3) No separate compartments for different areas in the case like the GD05.
4) USB 3.0 is nice especially since I have a USB 3.0 header on the ECS board! -

Two of the chipset’s four USB 3.0 ports are relocated internally for front-panel output,

- what do you thinks of this MoBo? Please comment!
4) No option to add an LCD panel in the front if I want - mainly for looks!

For my cases I'm leaning more towards either the GD05 (great cooling options) and measurements (12.79" depth) and after seeing The Advocate's pics - it looks like a great option! But it does not have the LCD display option either! - total cost $84 on amazon!
OR
This one I had linked above - nMediaPC 6000B - it is deep (16.4 inches) as The Advocate had pointed out above - but my console is 16.8" deep as well, so I should have some wiggle room! It has 1x120mm fan and 2x 80mm fans included and has a slot for another 1x120mm fan on the other side! Also planning on adding an LCD Console to the front panel! - total cost $100!

I've decided against the Antec NSK-2480 mainly because of the silver front panel, did consider painting it myself, but decided to save the hassle (I've never modded a case before for any of my builds) and buy an all black one! So I picked up the Corsair 430W PSU from Newegg for $20 after rebate - this was the only case in my consideration set which came with a PSU!

Please let me know what you think on the case and the MoBo?

Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[aoommen]

@ Zap - Just saw the GD06 you had mentioned above, in fact saw it in this month's Max PC issue, that is the case they used for the $1200 high end Gaming / HTPC build that they have featured there!

Pretty nice case (although I would not need the hot swap drive bays and stuff) - its too pricey for my build @ $122, especially since it comes without a PSU, would go with the GD05 if anything!

 

[piasabird]

There was something about the G620 having something disabled for a specific codec for video encoding. This is one thing that might mean you would want to be sure before using the Intel Pentium cores.

 

[Zap]

The A4 has the same TDP as the lower end Sandy bridge CPU's - 65 W as I had mentioned in an earlier post

Intel uses 65W TDP for the entire family of dual cores. In real world power draw and both idle/load, the G620 should use less power than the A4. Still, moot issue. I don't think you will be unhappy with the A4.

ECS board! - - what do you thinks of this MoBo? Please comment!

IMO ECS is fine if you don't need to fiddle with settings. A lot of enthusiasts will never use ECS, but don't let that dissuade you.

This one I had linked above - nMediaPC 6000B - it is deep (16.4 inches) as The Advocate had pointed out above - but my console is 16.8" deep as well, so I should have some wiggle room!

Remember that cables will be sticking out the back. Depth has been the problem I had with my previous two HTPC cases, the Antec NSK2480 and Cooler Master ATC-620. Okay, the ATC-620 also had massive (as in non-existant) airflow problems too.

I picked up the Corsair 430W PSU from Newegg for $20 after rebate - this was the only case in my consideration set which came with a PSU!

I hope you don't care that it isn't all that quiet. It isn't noisy but it isn't as quiet as many other decent PSUs.

@ Zap - Just saw the GD06 you had mentioned above, in fact saw it in this month's Max PC issue, that is the case they used for the $1200 high end Gaming / HTPC build that they have featured there!

Pretty nice case (although I would not need the hot swap drive bays and stuff) - its too pricey for my build @ $122, especially since it comes without a PSU, would go with the GD05 if anything!

Whoops brain fart, I meant GD04/GD05, not GD05/GD06. The GD04 is nice with the pseudo-stealthed optical drive bay and Amazon has it for $80 shipped. The internals of the GD05 and GD04 are the same, I think, only the face is different. The GD05 has a completely open optical drive bay so you can use it for other stuff like a display or fan controller. GD04 can only be used with an optical drive.

 

[aoommen]

Thanks for the reply!

IMO ECS is fine if you don't need to fiddle with settings.

- I'm not planning on Overclocking or even using the PCI slots right now for this system, would ECS do well for these purposes? My main concern was reliability and service - the 3 year warranty is good but no use if they suck at the customer service right? Have you had any experiences where you had to deal with their tech or service departments?

Maybe later I might add a TV tuner card or even later convert this into a very basic gaming / educational system for my son - but who knows what tech would be available by the time he grows up, right! 🙂

It isn't noisy but it isn't as quiet as many other decent PSUs.

- what would you have recommended, I can still RMA this and get another one, if it comes to that! It was unbeatable on the price and Corsair brand and 80 plus were reassurances!

GD04 can only be used with an optical drive.

- only a slim drive you mean right? That was the reason I did not consider this as I was planning to use a full size 5.25" Blu-ray drive that I have!

 

[jvroig]

Hi guys,

Your friendly neighbourhood mod again, dropping by with a PSA 🙂

This is a very nice, informative thread. We can keep it that way. We just need to calm down a bit, like this wise poster said:

^Whoa, calm down. All he did was point out that Clarkdale IGP isn't the same as Sandy Bridge IGP.

Now, I am not taking sides here. But being able to accept a different opinion (or a different "interpretation" of facts, if you prefer) is key in maintaining a healthy atmosphere here. We can coexist peacefully with different opinions in a thread - in fact, when different opinions coexist reasonably peacefully in the thread, it makes the thread better - more informative and balanced.

I assume that all of you are here because you WANT to be here, because you enjoy being here (I wouldn't assume someone is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to log in to AnandTech forums, making posts and clicking on the ads 🙂 ). With that assumption, I expect you wouldn't want to spend your time here getting hypertension.

So you know, learn to take things in stride, don't let the thread devolve into a personal shouting match. It's no fun, and it doesn't help anybody - not even yourselves. I don't really care if you are pro- or anti- AMD/Intel and if that colors your judgement in determining what is better. Just conduct yourself civilly, and in such a way that maintains an atmosphere of mutual respect and one that encourages (not stifles) healthy debate.

/PSA


Moderator jvroig