Microsoft Edge browser is dead, long live Chromium.

[UsandThem]

EdgeHTML is truly a superior HTML rendering engine, and I really don't like the fact that Microsoft is taking the knee to Google.

I don't think they had much of a choice. It was truly becoming a Zune vs. iPod, Windows Phones vs. Android / IOS situation. They had to do something to try and reverse the statistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers

 

[quikah]

Leaked builds are available, search around for it. Seems pretty much complete AFAICT, wonder when it will be made available.

 

[mikeymikec]

I don't think they had much of a choice. It was truly becoming a Zune vs. iPod, Windows Phones vs. Android / IOS situation. They had to do something to try and reverse the statistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers
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I don't think the statistics have anything to do with it. Edge's development model is entirely wrong for the browser market, and Edge development plays second fiddle to Windows 10 development. If MS channelled all their Win10 development efforts into Edge then maybe it could catch up and become a decent browser and then the innovative leader. However, when was the last time MS led the field in browser innovation? IMO it's spent far more time off the field entirely.

It makes perfect sense for MS to make Edge a clone of some other browser. From a perspective of not feeding one of their main competitors then maybe Firefox would have been a better choice to clone, but in any case the fact remains: MS don't have the time or inclination to lead the field in browser development. It's far easier for them to port their locked-in crap into a browser clone and let someone else do the heavy lifting.

It makes perfect sense for another reason too - Windows is an OS, not a browser. MS don't spend their time making cutting-edge free apps for Windows 10, nor does any other OS maker AFAIK: bundled OS apps are the basic versions, then separate apps are sold to provide the more cutting-edge features that people need. For example, WordPad is never going to be a world contender amongst word processors, why would anyone expect otherwise?

I'm puzzled by Radique's love for Edge though. Before MS broke its non-optional PDF implementation for a while, it was OK as an IE replacement, for someone who wants literally no modern features in their web browser. It's catching up though, right? One can even install a decent ad blocker into it these days... how fancy is that? The PDF implementation is still non-optional though AFAIK.

The only reason why I'm sad that Edge is disappearing from the market as a browser in its own right is that more choice for the end user is better than less, however even if it wasn't about to become a Chrome clone, I'm not sure why I would recommend it when it's like comparing WordPad to any half-decent word processor, and even then Windows 10 still has IE.

 

[mxnerd]

1. Edge market share is really laughable. Why pour money and development into it if only a tiny group of users are using it?

2. Edge has very few extensions. Nowadays people use browsers for everything. Lack of extensions only makes Edge even more unfavorable.

3. Microsoft wants to embrace Progressive Web Apps trend and doesn't want to fall behind again.

4. I believe Microsoft can contribute something good back to Chromium browser project and that will be a good thing.

5. The Typescript language collaboration effort between MS & Google proves that big companies don't have to be enemy in every aspect.

 

[UsandThem]

2. Edge has very few extensions. Nowadays people use browsers for everything. Lack of extensions only makes Edge even more unfavorable.

That's why I never even bothered using it. When Windows 10 launched, Edge didn't allow extensions at all (it reminds me of the head-scratching decision when Microsoft was among the last to allow browser tabs back in the day). In fact, it took them over a year (August 2016) to allow extensions, and by that point Edge had no chance to gain any market share.

Too little, too late. The story of many of Microsoft's decisions.

 

[Raduque]

I'm puzzled by Raduque's love for Edge though. Before MS broke its non-optional PDF implementation for a while, it was OK as an IE replacement, for someone who wants literally no modern features in their web browser. It's catching up though, right? One can even install a decent ad blocker into it these days... how fancy is that? The PDF implementation is still non-optional though AFAIK.

I like it because it's the fastest browser. It's lights on CPU and RAM, and also best on battery life. It doesn't siphon my data off and send it all to Google so Google can sell it to advertisers. Edge has adblock and ghostery to supplement a more in-depth solution (PIhole, or hosts file), what more do you need?

The only reason why I'm sad that Edge is disappearing from the market as a browser in its own right is that more choice for the end user is better than less, however even if it wasn't about to become a Chrome clone, I'm not sure why I would recommend it when it's like comparing WordPad to any half-decent word processor, and even then Windows 10 still has IE.

I recommend it because Firefox is junk and Chrome is Google spyware. Edge is fast and efficient.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I recommend it because Firefox is junk

Some of us have been using Firefox since version 1.0, or possibly slightly before, and don't really consider it "Junk". Though, it has taken far longer for the Mozilla developers to implement modern browser features, like multi-threaded rendering, content and browser sandboxing, and whatnot. OTOH, they have had a few innovative features over the years too.

By and large, though, Firefox works mostly without a hitch for me, and I have a really beefy desktop machine to run it on, too, so I don't mind if it's not the most performance- or power- efficient browser out there. It certainly performs well enough for me.

 

[quikah]

Official builds are now avilable to download:

https://www.microsoftedgeinsider.com/en-us/download

 

[mxnerd]

Installed Dev Channel MS Edge, the old Edge still existed, not replaced.

Don't know if iold Edge will replaced when Chromium based MS Edge is finally released.

Extensions can be install from MS or Chrome Stores.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I installed it today and while better than the old Edge its still not as suave as Chrome.

 

[mikeymikec]

I like it because it's the fastest browser. It's lights on CPU and RAM, and also best on battery life. It doesn't siphon my data off and send it all to Google so Google can sell it to advertisers. Edge has adblock and ghostery to supplement a more in-depth solution (PIhole, or hosts file), what more do you need?

Siphoning data off to Google would be bad, right? MS siphoning it is OK though?

TBH I've never really looked into adopting Edge personally because Win10 has never been my primary OS, but a personal showstopper right off the bat would be Edge's lack of cookie management options, they went slightly further than "COOKIES: Y/N" and then slumped in their chairs and said "meh". I have Firefox configured to allow all cookies until the end of the session plus it has an exceptions list, plus I can delete specific cookies on a per-site basis if I wanted to.

One consistent problem I have with Edge is fixing it when it's broken for customers. Its user profile folder is a complete mess: finding folders like a 'MicrosoftEdge' folder inside Microsoft Edge's "Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe" (WTF) folder is always a "delight", there are several folders in various subfolder structures that could contain a browser cache or the cookies or whatever. I often find that filesystem access has been denied to the folder and I have to fight the OS for it, or that write access to the folder has been denied "because a program is accessing it" despite the fact that Edge isn't shown as running in the process list and that the only way to fix it often is to go into Settings and press its reset button, or that reinstalling Edge through mile-long PowerShell commands is one of the few solutions I've ever come across.

In stark contrast, I encountered a rare problem with Firefox on my tablet recently: it wouldn't load any sites after its local home page. I narrowed the problem down to ublock origin, reinstalling the add-on and reinstating its default settings didn't help so I went into the FF profile folder and deleted ubo's extension data folder. Problem solved, no meaningful data loss needed.

For me another fairly serious annoyance is MS's tendency to overwrite user preferences with Windows Updates, Edge included. Furthermore, instead of going with the minimalist default home page that most browser makers have finally seen the light and decided that it was for the best, MS decided to go for their convoluted semi-offline MSN design and then reinstate it periodically when - heaven forbid - users don't want it.

On the topic of performance, I can't say I find your argument altogether very convincing:
https://venturebeat.com/2018/07/09/browser-benchmark-battle-july-2018-chrome-vs-firefox-vs-edge/

A dig through the benchmark results doesn't really suggest a clear winner to me; on one hand Chrome 'won' the most benchmarks by not very much, also a fair few benchmarks gave close results, and sometimes one browser appeared to spank the others quite decisively. In my own experience a particular platform may handle one browser better than others (without having a particular merit or drawback such as lots/lack of RAM/CPU); in the past I've even found IE to perform better than alternatives on a given platform, so coming out and saying "x is the fastest browser", IMO, is a bit silly.

 

[Dulanic]

I installed it today and while better than the old Edge its still not as suave as Chrome.

It is very similar, of course, as it is based on chromium. I don't see any reason for people to switch.....

I'm posting from it right now and I see no reason to switch since I already use chrome. And I actually see reasons not to, like as I type this, I notice there is no spell check built in like chromium. However, it is greyed out in settings, so probably a feature to come.

 

[Raduque]

Siphoning data off to Google would be bad, right? MS siphoning it is OK though?

Microsoft is not a personal data broker. Yes, I trust them much more than I trust Google, Facebook, Twitter, et. al.

 

[mikeymikec]

Microsoft is not a personal data broker. Yes, I trust them much more than I trust Google, Facebook, Twitter, et. al.

And all the data harvesting that goes on in Windows 10 is purely for product improvement purposes and completely anonymised, even though MS pretty much did a 180 in this respect in the last five years as well as giving away Windows 10 to millions of people, purely out of the goodness of their hearts of course? I see very little difference in MS's and Google's tendency to get users to use / opt-out of services that result in a lot of data harvesting. Google even asks the user to opt-in to cloud photo storage, MS doesn't. MS even gives out BS security advice in the hope of getting more OneDrive subscriptions and people signing into Windows with an MS account.

I'd be inclined to trust any company a smidgen more that has an obvious service they sell (e.g. advertising space) over one that doesn't (e.g. a free-to-access social network), but every big tech company is harvesting a lot more personal data than they used to, and handling that data costs a lot of money.

 

[Raduque]

I'd be inclined to trust any company a smidgen more that has an obvious service they sell (e.g. advertising space) over one that doesn't (e.g. a free-to-access social network)

Google sells the advertising space to companies though, not you. They are in fact selling YOU via your eyes and ears, to companies, using data that you put into their system by using their services.

Google even asks the user to opt-in to cloud photo storage, MS doesn't.

I... wait, what? I'm 100% certain that as soon as you login to a Google account, you are logged into Photos. You actually have to log in to OneDrive completely separate from logging into your Microsoft account in Windows. That's pretty much the opposite of what you described.

 

[mikeymikec]

Google sells the advertising space to companies though, not you. They are in fact selling YOU via your eyes and ears, to companies, using data that you put into their system by using their services.

Same deal with Bing.

I... wait, what? I'm 100% certain that as soon as you login to a Google account, you are logged into Photos. You actually have to log in to OneDrive completely separate from logging into your Microsoft account in Windows. That's pretty much the opposite of what you described.

Wrong on both counts.

On Android, when you first use the Photos app, there is an option to back up your photos to the cloud, take it or leave it. At least in my experience, both with a Nexus 5 and Android 4-6, then with a Moto G5 with Android 7 and 8.x.

When you first start up Windows 10, MS pushes you strongly to use an MS account. If you do, then your photos and documents are by default going to OneDrive.

 

[Raduque]

When you first start up Windows 10, MS pushes you strongly to use an MS account. If you do, then your photos and documents are by default going to OneDrive.

No, they don't, because by default, you're not logged into OneDrive. I have a laptop that I just installed Windows 10 on, and it is not connected to my OneDrive folder; none of my OneDrive content is even available to that laptop because it's not logged into OneDrive.

 

[mikeymikec]

No, they don't, because by default, you're not logged into OneDrive. I have a laptop that I just installed Windows 10 on, and it is not connected to my OneDrive folder; none of my OneDrive content is even available to that laptop because it's not logged into OneDrive.

I just tried it here on a Win10 1809 laptop I've recently clean-installed. I created a new MS account, signed in with it, and OneDrive automatically signed in (it took a few minutes to do it, but it did it without any nudging on my part or any consent). I suspect the reason why it's not signed in on yours is because you're not signing in to Windows with an MS account.

However, I will admit and I was surprised that by default OneDrive is not the default docs/pics save location in that scenario, at least not with 1809 (I wonder whether it was the default in a previous version of Win10, but that's beside the point).

So that makes Google's OS and MS's OS work just the same in this respect. Here's the message I got on Android 6 when starting the Photos app for the first time:

Your original argument was that Google is so much different to MS with what it does with user data that it harvests. My original point was that they're not so different, and I stand by that. You can continue to try and argue that point if you like (or not of course).

 

[Raduque]

I suspect the reason why it's not signed in on yours is because you're not signing in to Windows with an MS account.

Microsoft account is the only thing I sign in on. Maybe it's a setting from way back in Window 8 or something, because OneDrive never automatically signs in on any PC I sign in on. Hell, the old laptop doesn't even have enough space to sync my OneDrive contents anyway.

Your original argument was that Google is so much different to MS with what it does with user data that it harvests.

My argument will not change. I believe Google is very different from Microsoft, because I don't believe I've ever read anything about Microsoft selling harvested end user data to advertisers. Google's entire empire is based on selling user data to advertisers.


Edit: OneDrive is only the default save location for Office 365, I believe, and sadly you can only use autosave if you keep OneDrive as the default for O365.

 

[Dulanic]

Microsoft account is the only thing I sign in on. Maybe it's a setting from way back in Window 8 or something, because OneDrive never automatically signs in on any PC I sign in on. Hell, the old laptop doesn't even have enough space to sync my OneDrive contents anyway.



My argument will not change. I believe Google is very different from Microsoft, because I don't believe I've ever read anything about Microsoft selling harvested end user data to advertisers. Google's entire empire is based on selling user data to advertisers.


Edit: OneDrive is only the default save location for Office 365, I believe, and sadly you can only use autosave if you keep OneDrive as the default for O365.

So I get it, yet I don't in some ways. Honestly, google doesn't "sell" my data per say... they use the data to target me for companies and they sell advertisers targeted ads. I feel almost... OK with that. I prefer to see ads relevant to me vs ads about tampons. Google sells ads to advertisers and can properly target these ads based on my data. I feel.... OK.

 

[jhansman]

This thread may be necro'd by now, but just an FYI that Edge is still alive and, well, well. I rarely use it, but it's still working and (ironically) still the fastest of all the browsers I have installed.

 

[Raduque]

So I get it, yet I don't in some ways. Honestly, google doesn't "sell" my data per say... they use the data to target me for companies and they sell advertisers targeted ads. I feel almost... OK with that. I prefer to see ads relevant to me vs ads about tampons. Google sells ads to advertisers and can properly target these ads based on my data. I feel.... OK.

Well, you can be OK with it and that's fine. I'm 100% NOT OK with it because I don't want ads. Targeted or not, they are all crap. In the more than 20 years I've been using the internet, I have never used an ad to buy anything ever, and more to the point I never will.

My data is my data, and the services Google provides in exchange for that data isn't enough compensation for that data. I mean, personal data is worth massive amounts of money to them, so why isn't it worth more to us?

 

[Dulanic]

Well, you can be OK with it and that's fine. I'm 100% NOT OK with it because I don't want ads. Targeted or not, they are all crap. In the more than 20 years I've been using the internet, I have never used an ad to buy anything ever, and more to the point I never will.

My data is my data, and the services Google provides in exchange for that data isn't enough compensation for that data. I mean, personal data is worth massive amounts of money to them, so why isn't it worth more to us?

That's OK to not be OK with it. But also need to understand the financial impact of 0 ads. If you want to pay for every website you use, and want to pay for all TV, and pay for every search engine you use.... great. But that isn't realistic I understand not click ads, I don't either, but they are part of the internet, they are part of TV, they are part of life.

I use adblock etc... but the companies still pay for the ads whether or not I see them, so I'd rather they pay for it then me pay per website etc....

I'm not dumb, I protect my important info and I use VPN's etc... when it is fitting, but I also understand the basics and I could care less if Google knows when I shit or if I am looking to buy a new item... Why should I value that information? It isn't useful to me, I may not feel it is useful for them either since I don't buy through ads, but those ads still fund the services I use and they get funded through companies who think it does impact me, even if it doesn't.

 

[PingSpike]

Silverlight has been deprecated for years. Netfiix uses an HTML5 player now. I think they still support Silverlight for old systems.

Yeah, you'd think they would have learned their lesson by now. First they built that silverlight player...pretty sure Silverlight was never popular so no surprise that went in the toilet. Then the built the apps and Edge 4K so obviously that's discontinued. They'll probably shut down the app store soon. Are the Windows 8 and 10 apps stores even compatible? I've seriously never really looked but I suspect they're not somehow since that seems to be how MS does things lately.

 

[PingSpike]

Installed Dev Channel MS Edge, the old Edge still existed, not replaced.

Don't know if iold Edge will replaced when Chromium based MS Edge is finally released.

Extensions can be install from MS or Chrome Stores.


View attachment 4938

Sounds like a great user experience for Grandma. How many blue Es are there going to be on the desktop now?

I do find it funny that they said they're bring it to Windows 7 right as its on the way out the door while they never even let Windows 9 Edge Prime.