Microsoft Basically The Worst Internet Startup Ever. $2 Billion In loses in 1 year

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
This might be one to short. I mean everything they try is a fail save xbox, and windows/office gold mine seem to be waning.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/28/microsoft-online-business/

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When you hear the word “startup”, you most likely think of an Internet startup. Maybe it’s funded, maybe not, but its burn rate almost for sure puts it in the red each quarter. Obviously, Microsoft is not a startup. Nor have they been a startup for a long time. But what if you thought of their Online Division as an Internet startup? One funded by Microsoft. The thought it terrifying. Or it should be. To Microsoft.

Microsoft released their Q1 2011 earnings today. The results were very good except for one very big blemish: the Online Division. Last quarter, the division lost $560 million for Microsoft. That’s better than the previous quarter when it lost a staggering $696 million, but it’s much worse than a year ago, when it lost $477 million. In the past year, Microsoft has lost well over $2 billion from the division.

Let me repeat that: 1 year, a $2 billion loss.

Obviously, any startup that did that would have long since gone under — with that kind of burn rate, they probably would have gotten the plug pulled a few weeks into existence no matter how well-funded they were. But Microsoft keeps pumping money into the division. And they have to. Because even they realize it’s the future.

Of all the money Microsoft makes, the vast majority comes from two divisions: Windows & Windows Live Division (Windows) and Microsoft Business Division (Office). They make a good amount of money from the Server & Tools division too, but it’s less than half of those other two. And both of those two are under direct assault.

The web is making Windows (and every operating system) less vital, while at the same time coming up with free and/or cheap tools to replace the relatively expensive Office. And new devices like smartphones and tablets have created an ecosystem where Windows is essentially a non-player (though we’ll see what happened with the just-released Windows Phone 7). And Office is basically non-existent in these spaces.

As this past quarter has shown, Microsoft is fine for the foreseeable future still. People (mainly companies) are still buying Windows and Office licenses. But only a fool would think this is perpetual.

Microsoft needs to have a heavy presence online in order to maintain their power going forward. And that’s why they’re dumping so much money into it. And you could argue that this strategy has worked with products like Bing. But Microsoft needs more than just this presence, they need to make money here. And not only are they failing at that. They’re failing in spectacular fashion.

Five years ago, Microsoft’s Online Division was actually making money. Granted, it wasn’t a lot. But they were in the black. But for the past 19 quarters in a row now, Microsoft has lost money in this division. And as this chart put together last quarter by SAI shows, the losses have actually gotten worse over time. It’s a bloodbath being covered up by the profits from other divisions.

People talk a lot about Google’s failure to make money off of YouTube. But at least they’re not bleeding money to this extent. And they may actually be close to profitability. And while it’s true that Apple hasn’t been hugely successful online, they really haven’t tried much. They have MobileMe, which isn’t hugely popular, but they do make money on. Twitter is another company talked about a lot as not making money. They too seem much closer than Microsoft is at this point. I think it’s a safe bet that they’re not running $500 million in the red each quarter.

So can Microsoft turn this around? With Bing continuing to gain some popularity and Microsoft now in complete control of Yahoo’s search business, there’s some hope. But even with those, there doesn’t seem to be a clear cut way to start making real money without pouring a ton more in. Yahoo Search is in decline and while Microsoft is monetizing Bing, they’re also spending a huge amount advertising it to get the eyeballs they eventually monetize. 19 quarters of losses in a row is bad enough; the fact that the profit trend is going the wrong way is even more troubling.

Is it too late to buy Facebook outright (they own a very small stake)? Of course it is, but maybe they can head to SecondMarket and allocate at least some of the $2 billion a year they’re blowing to buy up some Facebook stock. That would be one way to make money online.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
I'm proud to say I contributed to their losses when I claimed my Bing cashback.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Ahh good ole days:). I got the max two years it ran. Pretty nice getting a ACOG for $650 back when they were running 35% deal. I also got my wife a front loading Bosch W&D. Bunch of other stuff too. But mainly 3 scopes, a lappy, and W&D.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,277
125
106
I don't think the article writer really understands what sorts of tools microsoft makes (and makes their money off of). He is obviously excluding office from the list of tools since he mentioned it as a separate money making division. So what is left? Mainly their software development tools. Visual studios does NOT have a rival anywhere. There is seriously no tool that competes. So the fear of losing that market while valid, isn't something that MS really has to worry about for now.

Losing their office share is a possibility, after all, there are some good free alternatives. The problem with them, though, is that corporations are scared to death to move to a "free" tool. Office, along with the MS OS, are here to stay for at least the next 10 years.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
I thought Microsoft was the liberal wet dream of a monopoly that could never fail? Maybe the free market DOES work?
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Their console division is a massive failure, I am not sure why their investors have not demanded the plug be pulled after so many billions up in smoke for so many years.

There is no telling how much much they could have made if they used all that cash from their console division to buy up video game developers and publishers instead and sell software for all platforms.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Their console division is a massive failure, I am not sure why their investors have not demanded the plug be pulled after so many billions up in smoke for so many years.

There is no telling how much much they could have made if they used all that cash from their console division to buy up video game developers and publishers instead and sell software for all platforms.

A loss leader product isn't anything new.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
I don't think the article writer really understands what sorts of tools microsoft makes (and makes their money off of). He is obviously excluding office from the list of tools since he mentioned it as a separate money making division. So what is left? Mainly their software development tools. Visual studios does NOT have a rival anywhere. There is seriously no tool that competes. So the fear of losing that market while valid, isn't something that MS really has to worry about for now.

I'd assume that with lots of application developers eyeing other platforms - web, mobile, linux, consoles - their tools divisions are taking a even bigger hit. Back in 1998, if you wanted to create an application and make money from it, you'd develop it for Windows. It's not the case today.

The biggest problem of MS today is that it's not cool, it's not "in". It would have been interesting if they spun off a new brand that would deal with online activities and mobile.

One saving grace is their Xbox division, they might not make money off the hardware but the face there's a Microsoft appliance sitting in the living room of many consumers surely doesn't hurt when thinking about the challenges coming from the TV front.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Are you stupid? Why would ANYONE short their stock? They had record earnings and record profit. It's like saying that you should short Apple because except for their Computer business, their music business and their mobile business, they are losing money!

Windows isn't going anywhere. Their server market is growing like a weed. Their business application division is gaining with no end in sight. Their entertainment division is growing and is only going to contribute more over time. It's mind bending how small minded some people are when they look at stuff like this and think that Microsoft is dying.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Their console division is a massive failure, I am not sure why their investors have not demanded the plug be pulled after so many billions up in smoke for so many years.

There is no telling how much much they could have made if they used all that cash from their console division to buy up video game developers and publishers instead and sell software for all platforms.

Microsoft has been making money off the xbox for years now. They haven't recouped their initial investment yet, but the xbox is actually a major success. XBox Live has more customers right now than Comcast. They sell more units than the PS3 and Wii every month (save for a few). The PS3 has just recently stopped losing money on hardware. Nintendo has posted major losses the past couple of quarters because of a lack of demand.

Please show me in what way the xbox is a massive failure.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,277
125
106
I'd assume that with lots of application developers eyeing other platforms - web, mobile, linux, consoles - their tools divisions are taking a even bigger hit. Back in 1998, if you wanted to create an application and make money from it, you'd develop it for Windows. It's not the case today.
I Whole heartedly disagree. Despite apples recent successes with the iOS and the decline of the PC gaming industry as a whole, windows based platforms STILL outweigh any other platform by a huge margin. (excluding embedded systems, which have always had a stronger holding then any PC system to date).

The demand for C# programmers (which is primarily used for windows platforms) has consistently been one of the biggest programming job markets out there, outpaced only by the old dogs C++ and Java.

The biggest problem of MS today is that it's not cool, it's not "in". It would have been interesting if they spun off a new brand that would deal with online activities and mobile.
They did, they just were not successful. Windows mobile has been around for decades as have several of MS online services, Bing, Live, MSN, Hotmail, ect.

One saving grace is their Xbox division, they might not make money off the hardware but the face there's a Microsoft appliance sitting in the living room of many consumers surely doesn't hurt when thinking about the challenges coming from the TV front.
And this is where MS dang near has a corner on the gaming market and a great example of what happens when you give developers great tools to work with.


People look at microsoft through apple tinted glasses. They say "Oh, MS doesn't have cool, trendy things like the iphone" and make assumptions about how that effects them as a whole. 90% of big business out there doesn't care that their employees get trendy iPhones to play games on. They want productivity. Since they have been with MS since the dawn of the 90's chances are good they will stick with MS for all their mission critical applications.

That is where the money is at. The consumer market is second fiddle to the business market. It does hurt MS not to have a corner on every market they touch, but where it counts, they dang near have a monopoly. (Even then, they have something like 85-90% of the market share for consumer OSes, Apple comes in around 10%, and linux shows up somewhere between 1% and 0.000000000001%)

Seriously, what does Apple have to compete against MS in the server department? XServer? When was the last time you saw a business seriously using an Apple OS on a business server, Never?

To say there is no demand for windows developers is retarded. It is one of the biggest markets for developers still. It will take several years of shrinkage before that will not be true.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,277
125
106
Their console division is a massive failure, I am not sure why their investors have not demanded the plug be pulled after so many billions up in smoke for so many years.

There is no telling how much much they could have made if they used all that cash from their console division to buy up video game developers and publishers instead and sell software for all platforms.

What do you mean by massive failure? As far as popularity goes, the Xbox is one of the most popular console brands out there. This last go around they kicked the trash out of the PS3.

They may have lost money on the initial sell of the hardware, but with several million consumers paying for Live! accounts, there is no way they aren't getting their money back.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,431
10,324
136
What do you mean by massive failure? As far as popularity goes, the Xbox is one of the most popular console brands out there. This last go around they kicked the trash out of the PS3.

They may have lost money on the initial sell of the hardware, but with several million consumers paying for Live! accounts, there is no way they aren't getting their money back.

It's the selling printers at a loss and hitting you up for rediculously overpriced ink model on a massive scale. Wait till you start paying a monthly fee for online software. If you don't think that's the eventual plan, you're not paying attention.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,277
125
106
It's the selling printers at a loss and hitting you up for rediculously overpriced ink model on a massive scale. Wait till you start paying a monthly fee for online software. If you don't think that's the eventual plan, you're not paying attention.

With XBox live, you already do. With most MMOs you already do.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
It's the selling printers at a loss and hitting you up for rediculously overpriced ink model on a massive scale. Wait till you start paying a monthly fee for online software. If you don't think that's the eventual plan, you're not paying attention.
Add in the ridiculously overpriced controllers, wireless adapter, etc.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
I Whole heartedly disagree. Despite apples recent successes with the iOS and the decline of the PC gaming industry as a whole, windows based platforms STILL outweigh any other platform by a huge margin. (excluding embedded systems, which have always had a stronger holding then any PC system to date).

The demand for C# programmers (which is primarily used for windows platforms) has consistently been one of the biggest programming job markets out there, outpaced only by the old dogs C++ and Java.

You can't compare "historic" demand for C# personnel as it's quite a new thing. 10 years ago, you had C++ programmers for many platforms, now Windows has moved onto a proprietary platform. I still think that 10 years ago, a much larger portion of the developers were under Windows, whereas now it's competing with things such as Java, Web programming, mobile and other non-Windows platforms.

It's only logical as the weight of Windows applications in the computing world has shrunk dramatically. 10 years ago you didn't have smartphones, you didn't have OSX (Apple had an insubstantial market share) and there were no real web applications.

They did, they just were not successful. Windows mobile has been around for decades as have several of MS online services, Bing, Live, MSN, Hotmail, ect.

"Windows Live" is the furthest you can go from a spinoff. It should have created a wholly new, independent subsidiary that has no affiliation with MS itself (although obviously leveraging MS platforms).

People look at microsoft through apple tinted glasses. They say "Oh, MS doesn't have cool, trendy things like the iphone" and make assumptions about how that effects them as a whole. 90% of big business out there doesn't care that their employees get trendy iPhones to play games on. They want productivity. Since they have been with MS since the dawn of the 90's chances are good they will stick with MS for all their mission critical applications.

MS has no foothold in the business market outside PCs and servers, the latter has been under attack for years and PCs... well, they're not going anywhere really, but there will be a new breed of productivity-based tablets and smartphones that has nothing from Microsoft. Just look at where HP is aiming with their Palm purchase, and Blackberry with QNX. That's not to be taking lightly.

Obviously the business market is much slower to change than the consumer market, but it IS changing.

You probably know that the biggest growth in PC sales has been in laptops; do you want to tell me this segment is not threatened by netbooks, tablets and large handhelds?

That is where the money is at. The consumer market is second fiddle to the business market. It does hurt MS not to have a corner on every market they touch, but where it counts, they dang near have a monopoly. (Even then, they have something like 85-90% of the market share for consumer OSes, Apple comes in around 10%, and linux shows up somewhere between 1% and 0.000000000001%)

If you want to talk about businesses, look at Windows Server and its market share compared to Linux, and with all the cloud computing BS going on, it'll get worse. Linux has about 75% of the webservers globally. That's not good for MS either.

Seriously, what does Apple have to compete against MS in the server department? XServer? When was the last time you saw a business seriously using an Apple OS on a business server, Never?

To say there is no demand for windows developers is retarded. It is one of the biggest markets for developers still. It will take several years of shrinkage before that will not be true.

Of course it is by far the largest segment, but we're discussing trends here. No one said MS is in trouble right now, but you can't reinvent a company over a quarter and frankly, in 5 years I think MS will need to have some explanations for the shareholders. Think about it this way - if all was as rosy as you describe, they wouldn't sink this massive amount of money into failed divisions.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
You can't compare "historic" demand for C# personnel as it's quite a new thing. 10 years ago, you had C++ programmers for many platforms, now Windows has moved onto a proprietary platform. I still think that 10 years ago, a much larger portion of the developers were under Windows, whereas now it's competing with things such as Java, Web programming, mobile and other non-Windows platforms.

It's only logical as the weight of Windows applications in the computing world has shrunk dramatically. 10 years ago you didn't have smartphones, you didn't have OSX (Apple had an insubstantial market share) and there were no real web applications.



"Windows Live" is the furthest you can go from a spinoff. It should have created a wholly new, independent subsidiary that has no affiliation with MS itself (although obviously leveraging MS platforms).



MS has no foothold in the business market outside PCs and servers, the latter has been under attack for years and PCs... well, they're not going anywhere really, but there will be a new breed of productivity-based tablets and smartphones that has nothing from Microsoft. Just look at where HP is aiming with their Palm purchase, and Blackberry with QNX. That's not to be taking lightly.

Obviously the business market is much slower to change than the consumer market, but it IS changing.

You probably know that the biggest growth in PC sales has been in laptops; do you want to tell me this segment is not threatened by netbooks, tablets and large handhelds?



If you want to talk about businesses, look at Windows Server and its market share compared to Linux, and with all the cloud computing BS going on, it'll get worse. Linux has about 75% of the webservers globally. That's not good for MS either.



Of course it is by far the largest segment, but we're discussing trends here. No one said MS is in trouble right now, but you can't reinvent a company over a quarter and frankly, in 5 years I think MS will need to have some explanations for the shareholders. Think about it this way - if all was as rosy as you describe, they wouldn't sink this massive amount of money into failed divisions.

Actually, the OP is the one saying that MS is in trouble right now. Telling people to short a stock is basically saying to run for the hills.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Windows Azure and BPOS still have a ways to go in classic "Microsoft gets it right the third time it tries something" style, but they're pretty decent pieces of technology. I haven't looked into the details of this article but I imagine the high costs come from all of the initial hardware and NOC costs? It's to be expected and should not necessarily be taken as a sign of failure.

Edit: Ah, TechCrunch. Not exactly a site you want to take your market advice from.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
To say there is no demand for windows developers is retarded. It is one of the biggest markets for developers still. It will take several years of shrinkage before that will not be true.

I'm a developer and personally I won't touch Windows with a 50 foot pole (unless I have to). At my last company (where I had a less than 1 year stint), there was a guy developing in Visual C++. One day I was trying to help him get something compiled to test a release. While I was in Visual Studio, I noticed there were updates available. I downloaded and installed the updates, which then caused the compiler to barf. I was like WTF? Sure enough the IT guy confirmed that MS released an update that broke the compiler and we had to roll back.

Now I'm at an all Linux/Mac shop. The only thing we use Windows for is to test the site on a Windows box. Myself and a more senior developer use Ubuntu workstations, while some other developers use either Fedora or Mac OS.

In my spare time I investigate programming languages and do development on personal projects. From what I have seen, Microsoft's languages like C# are not any better than the tons of free languages out there. In fact, their F# language was taken wholesale from OCaml. What I have been told by some, however, is that their .NET virtual machine is quite useful, and also their IDEs and other supporting technologies are really good. For me though, that's not enough to give up my freedom as a developer. Open source technologies that run on a million platforms and that I can download/fork at will on any box I want without having to install extra bloated junk are the way to go in my opinion. It is actually a similar situation with the JVM stuff. I've been told that the Java Virtual Machine is really good, but the problem is that Java itself is a crap language. I don't care how many shiny technologies you pile on to that crap, you are still developing in crap! The unofficial JVM language Clojure has piqued my interest though. It's too bad industry marginalizes such languages.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Windows Azure and BPOS still have a ways to go in classic "Microsoft gets it right the third time it tries something" style, but they're pretty decent pieces of technology. I haven't looked into the details of this article but I imagine the high costs come from all of the initial hardware and NOC costs? It's to be expected and should not necessarily be taken as a sign of failure.

Edit: Ah, TechCrunch. Not exactly a site you want to take your market advice from.

Amazingly, I've talked to a couple of our customers at work and they mentioned that they are either already switching to BPOS or are considering it. I was shocked since I had no idea that many non-IT people would already know about it. I'm almost thinking of seeing if I can partner up to make some $$$ of of it.
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
0
0
What a stupid fucking article. Last I heard the Xbox is still a loss and I guess its considered a success...

Any billionaire corporation that spends their record rates of cash deserves no contempt. Lastly what more is a business than a few good ideas that make a ton of cash. Oh thats right, you all watch shit on Apple TV lol.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,458
987
126
Xbox is making profits, it made $365million in profits for MS's most recent quarter. The Xbox Division itself has been cranking out profits for since the second half of 2007. Xbox Live alone is a printing press for MS.

MS is no where near in danger, even with all the cash they burn, they still turn out huge profits. They have stagnated on innovation as late, but they can afford to do that when they dominate the OS and productivity market, and will continue to do so for atleast another 5 years, and that gives them plenty of time to adapt to any changes that may take place. The author of the article assumes there will huge change to online shit sorta soon. There won't. MS's bread and butter is corporations. Corporations are extremely slow to adapt and are unlikely to make a move to online productivity formats, tablets, cloud computing, etc for a long time. There will be a niche for such things in some corporate environments but thats about it.

A computer offers so much more productivity than any tablet. In most cases tablets hamper actual productivity. Spend a week with just a tablet, and you will claw you eyes out. Tablets augment PCs. Without PCs tablets are worthless. Tablets will never be a content production workhorse. They currently are, and will in all likely hood be a content consuming device. They are great at displaying information and content but they are terribly subpar at efficiently/productively creating it.
 
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