#MeToo and Time Travel

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
That is a tricky question. It matters on what exactly we decide on for what it means to 'consent'. Ethically I think no, because I think that to consent one must be informed, and I know that an 11 year old is not able to really grasp sexuality enough to really be informed on what they are consenting to.

So when you said rape to me was not a serious problem that I have to face on a regular basis what did you mean considering I was the 11yo? Then ask yourself how you would feel throwing that claim at literally anyone else if it were not me.

Just to be clear, I'm not joking and I won't dive into this further other than to say what I just said was 100% true.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
4,640
136
So when you said rape to me was not a serious problem that I have to face on a regular basis what did you mean considering I was the 11yo? Then ask yourself how you would feel throwing that claim at literally anyone else if it were not me.

Just to be clear, I'm not joking and I won't dive into this further other than to say what I just said was 100% true.

I would say that I'm guessing that you are not 11yo anymore, and no longer face that on a regular basis. Which does not change what I am saying at all. If anything it reinforces it. Our society does not understand consent, and while we teach them we need to be strict about it. It is worth giving up some things to stop 11 years olds from being raped.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I would say that I'm guessing that you are not 11yo anymore, and no longer face that on a regular basis. Which does not change what I am saying at all. If anything it reinforces it. Our society does not understand consent, and while we teach them we need to be strict about it. It is worth giving up some things to stop 11 years olds from being raped.

First, how is it that you think I could not think about it "regularly"?
Second, how many people that are raped do no face it "regularly"?
Third, in what way do you think an person that did that to an 11yo would learn from the current climate? If someone is willing to forcibly engage in sex with an 11yo its because they are looking to satisfy themselves without concern to the child. That person understands and simply does not care. Its the same reason you are not likely to change someone that was willing to kill someone. They know murder is wrong and simply do not care.

Unless you supervise children 100% of the time you never could have prevented what happened to me. Coming anywhere close to attempting to have 100% protected me would have completely broken society.

I would give up a great many things to undo what was done to me, but, I would never be so selfish to burden everyone else around me because of what happened.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
136
I imagine the problem is that people do not want ambiguity when it comes to rape. Allowing for uncertainty allows for the possibility of a rapist to go free, and a victim to not receive justice.

The divide that I have not been able to bridge is how to form an argument that is not shot down by the following arguments...

Not me: Rape is when one person does not want to have sex, and it still happens anyway.
Me: Well sexuality is not always clear so I think its unfair to people to require explicit confirmation as that is not how human sexuality works.
Not me: You are a horrible person if you can't tell when someone is not consenting.

and...

Not me: Its simple, rape is when the person does not want sex, but it happens anyway.
Me: I think its wrong to punish anyone in that situation, as sexuality is complex and sometimes its reasonable to not perceive the signal.
Not me: So are you saying that because someone missed the signal, that they should not be punished for rape.
Me: Sometimes yes.

I think most realize that human sexuality is complex, which is why they have shifted to prevention. It becomes very hard to teach young people on how to read situations, so, they are taught explicit and direct rules. You can never claim a mistake if you follow the explicit rules, which kills many forms of sexual expression. I think most people think they are okay with the trade-off not realizing what it is that they are really giving up. Most people have committed rape by the very strict definition.

Yeah I've been there plenty. It's a loaded scenario. People are primed to go into survival mode which involves the illusion of certainty. To some extent, you may be able to get someone to modify their perspective and move into openness, but that's not easy. Some people are much more capable of staying open than others, and of course the context matters differently to each person. But if someone is operating with closed boundaries, you're not likely to change that by introducing challenging information. It doesn't mean you can't affect them. You just won't do so collaboratively. There's a bunch of ways I've learned to try and change the paradigm, but you can't force anyone to be open if they don't want to.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Yeah I've been there plenty. It's a loaded scenario. People are primed to go into survival mode which involves the illusion of certainty. To some extent, you may be able to get someone to modify their perspective and move into openness, but that's not easy. Some people are much more capable of staying open than others, and of course the context matters differently to each person. But if someone is operating with closed boundaries, you're not likely to change that by introducing challenging information. It doesn't mean you can't affect them. You just won't do so collaboratively. There's a bunch of ways I've learned to try and change the paradigm, but you can't force anyone to be open if they don't want to.

Which is what makes this current political climate weird. That openness should be a personality trait associated to people on the Left, yet is the people on the Left that are pushing this idea.

To me, discussions are supposed to be a collaborative thing, and yet it seems almost impossible with most now. I get that not everyone wants to talk to me, but, I also don't see it happening outside of me either.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
I am trying to imagine the number of times I would have missed out on consensual sex with a partner if I had let the first boolean "no" shut me down.
No can mean a billion things.
No : You are not trying hard enough, try harder!
No : I am horny but I am more tired, say nasty things to me and get me there
No : Not right now honey
No : I am mad as fuck at you, step off!
No : Never in a million years
etc etc etc.

You gotta know your nos man...
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
Some things are too stupid to be real.. The song was written in 1944, that's 74 YEARS ago!


https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/01/us/baby-its-cold-outside-cleveland-radio-trnd/index.html

Cleveland radio station bans 'Baby, It's Cold Outside'

Star 102, WDOK-FM, calls itself "Cleveland's Christmas station." But its listeners are discovering that one holiday chestnut has been kicked to the curb.

"Baby, It's Cold Outside," the duet in which a man tries to dissuade a woman from leaving a party despite her repeated protestations, has been pulled from the station's Christmas playlist amid concerns about its predatory nature.

Penned by "Guys and Dolls" writer Frank Loesser in 1944, the Christmas song is perceived by some as unworthy for the most wonderful time of the year -- particularly in the age of #MeToo.

"People might say, 'Oh, enough with that #MeToo,' but if you really put that aside and read the lyrics, it's not something that I would want my daughter to be in that kind of a situation," midday host Desiray told CNN affiliate WJW-TV.
"The tune might be catchy, but let's maybe not promote that sort of an idea."

The 'Christmas Date Rape Song'

On the radio station's website, host Glenn Anderson wrote he didn't initially understand why the lyrics were offensive.
"Now, I do realize that when the song was written in 1944, it was a different time, but now while reading it, it seems very manipulative and wrong," he wrote. "The world we live in is extra sensitive now, and people get easily offended, but in a world where #MeToo has finally given women the voice they deserve, the song has no place."

In fact, Urban Dictionary defines "Baby, it's Cold Outside" as a "Christmas Date Rape Song."

"What's in this drink?" the woman asks.

"Mind if I move in closer?" the man implores. "What's the sense in hurtin' my pride?"

"The answer is no," she later says.

"But baby, it's cold outside," he responds.

Some listeners protest decision

Sondra Miller, president of the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center, told WJW-TV that she backs the decision.

"The character in the song is saying, 'No,' and they're saying well, 'Does no really mean yes?' and I think in 2018, what we know is consent is 'Yes' and
if you get a 'No' it means 'No' and you should stop right there," she said.

"I've asked them to stop and think about the perspective of a survivor who was raped in that type of circumstance."

Still, some Star 102 listeners, including women, disagree with the decision, according to comments posted on the radio station's Facebook page.
"I will not be listening to this station anymore myself if they give in to sensitive people," one woman wrote. "The song has been out there for a long time and now it offends people. Come on. This is getting out of hand with all the people that are offended by stuff."

It's not the first time people have taken offense to the song.

In 2016, a couple from Minnesota re-imagined the classic for a 21st-century audience, changing the lyrics to emphasize the importance of consent.
"I really can't stay," the woman sings in their rewritten version.
"Baby I'm fine with that," the man responds.
"I've got to go away,"
"Baby I'm cool with that."

***

The 2018 rewrite should be:

"I really can't stay,"
"Then get the fuck out"
"I've got to go away,"
"Then get the fuck out. "
"I really can't stay,"
"Cool, someone else is on the way..."
"I've got to go away,"
"Then get the fuck out"..

That works.. :cool:

I dont get it .. In the original the woman *wants* to stay but is worried about her reputation - and the guy is trying convince her to stay... re-hearing that with 2018 ears and everything becomes rapey? Conservatives are always looking for something to be offended by.. Specially Slow.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
I dont get it .. In the original the woman *wants* to stay but is worried about her reputation - and the guy is trying convince her to stay... re-hearing that with 2018 ears and everything becomes rapey? Conservatives are always looking for something to be offended by.. Specially Slow.

It isn't conservatives bitching, it is the anti-Kavanaugh type metoo'ers. More leftist feminist bullshit.

Like I've said here before, liberals are the new conservatives. They've gone stale and are the ones that try and push their version of morality down everyone's throats.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
It isn't conservatives bitching, it is the anti-Kavanaugh type metoo'ers. More leftist feminist bullshit.

Like I've said here before, liberals are the new conservatives. They've gone stale and are the ones that try and push their version of morality down everyone's throats.

Liberals are the new conservatives and the (old)conservatives is the new Nazis .. B it might be... you onto sumthin.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
Liberals are the new conservatives and the (old)conservatives is the new Nazis .. B it might be... you onto sumthin.

No, the pendulum swings, but the clock remains the same. The counter culture can't be the mainstream forever, it just can't work. Now the liberals are the party of conformity, the fascists, the ones trying to abuse law to force their version of morality on everyone, the side that shuts down free speech for fear of the free thinking it could create. The left used to fight for righteous causes, now they just fight. They want privilege, not equality.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
No, the pendulum swings, but the clock remains the same. The counter culture can't be the mainstream forever, it just can't work. Now the liberals are the party of conformity, the fascists, the ones trying to abuse law to force their version of morality on everyone, the side that shuts down free speech for fear of the free thinking it could create. The left used to fight for righteous causes, now they just fight. They want privilege, not equality.
No no no no no no. FULL STOP.
Dude.
Dude dude dude. Drop the crack pipe. You are 180deg delusional.
Georgia.
Wisconsin.
Voter fraud.
Voter suppression.
Power Grabs. Demolition of democratic principles.
Extreeeeeme Gerry Mandering.

Its all you. All on you. There is only one fascist here, and its you.

If you are dead set on calling liberals for the new conservatives, then a PERFECT analogy is to call conservatives for Trump Fascists aka the New Nazis.

Actually, I am 99.99% sure that you personally is just some willfully ignorant toad out of The_Donald here "for the cause"..
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I dont get it .. In the original the woman *wants* to stay but is worried about her reputation - and the guy is trying convince her to stay... re-hearing that with 2018 ears and everything becomes rapey? Conservatives are always looking for something to be offended by.. Specially Slow.

No, you cannot blame this on conservatives. The vast majority of people that have a problem with it have been of the Left in this thread. You got that very wrong.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
No no no no no no. FULL STOP.
Dude.
Dude dude dude. Drop the crack pipe. You are 180deg delusional.
Georgia.
Wisconsin.
Voter fraud.
Voter suppression.
Power Grabs. Demolition of democratic principles.
Extreeeeeme Gerry Mandering.

Its all you. All on you. There is only one fascist here, and its you.

If you are dead set on calling liberals for the new conservatives, then a PERFECT analogy is to call conservatives for Trump Fascists aka the New Nazis.

Actually, I am 99.99% sure that you personally is just some willfully ignorant toad out of The_Donald here "for the cause"..

Georgia, Wisconsin? They're states where any citizen can vote and has the same rights as any other citizen. Nothingburger.

Voter fraud? You mean the Democrats?

Voter suppression? What?! Anyone can go vote! No magic there. You're making up issues here.

Look at the premise of this thread. It is the LIBERALS whining and forcing their morality on everyone... again. I don't even understand why you tried to blame conservatives for anything here.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,443
4,139
136
#metoo has completely backfired. Not only are many people now starting to question alleged victims, but many workplaces are becoming sterile and cold.. I know in my workplace, in a huge company almost everyone has heard of, changed their "Winter Celebration" from some establishment rented out for the night to a 3 hour lunch in the middle of the week during work hours.


I had a service call today, to install a new server and a NAS. Th office was manned by four women and ONE MAN, who was the manager..

I left thinking "If he's not gay, it's only a matter of time before he steps into something warm and brown.."
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
No, you cannot blame this on conservatives. The vast majority of people that have a problem with it have been of the Left in this thread. You got that very wrong.
Psssst.. how many liberals vs conservatives would you say is on this sub?
- Would you be terrible surprised that, if you asked like 100 liberals about this topic and got two negative replies, that those replies would be from two liberals?
- Just asking!
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
Georgia, Wisconsin? They're states where any citizen can vote and has the same rights as any other citizen. Nothingburger.

Voter fraud? You mean the Democrats?

Voter suppression? What?! Anyone can go vote! No magic there. You're making up issues here.

Look at the premise of this thread. It is the LIBERALS whining and forcing their morality on everyone... again. I don't even understand why you tried to blame conservatives for anything here.

Back to T_D with you please.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
136
Which is what makes this current political climate weird. That openness should be a personality trait associated to people on the Left, yet is the people on the Left that are pushing this idea.

To me, discussions are supposed to be a collaborative thing, and yet it seems almost impossible with most now. I get that not everyone wants to talk to me, but, I also don't see it happening outside of me either.

I think it's a fundamental error to associate openness with something belonging to a political orientation. Certainly, at least at specific times, a political affiliation is going to be associated with relatively more openness. I would wager if it could be objectively quantified you would find more variance among a party than between parties. That part is often missed when looking at the "conservative brain defect" science that @Moonbeam often quotes. I would say that Democrats are better at valuing the idea of openness and at displays that might lead to a self or other impressions of openness. As you point out, however, that is easy to demonstrate as fallacious to anyone who has the ability to observe from a sufficiently neutral position.

I'm not in absolute despair about this situation, though. In normal group dynamics this kind of subgrouping is natural. The way that resolves is for members in each group to first consolidate together enough to make themselves open to differences among their own group. If they can integrate those differences successfully, that will make them increasingly open to the diversity present in the other group.

Of course, I do hope the world doesn't fall apart before we get to that point. For those of us able to escape this dynamic, I'm not sure what's best. But I feel a bit less alone with you around.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Psssst.. how many liberals vs conservatives would you say is on this sub?
- Would you be terrible surprised that, if you asked like 100 liberals about this topic and got two negative replies, that those replies would be from two liberals?
- Just asking!

What does that have to do with this thread? The Liberals in this thread?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I think it's a fundamental error to associate openness with something belonging to a political orientation. Certainly, at least at specific times, a political affiliation is going to be associated with relatively more openness. I would wager if it could be objectively quantified you would find more variance among a party than between parties. That part is often missed when looking at the "conservative brain defect" science that @Moonbeam often quotes. I would say that Democrats are better at valuing the idea of openness and at displays that might lead to a self or other impressions of openness. As you point out, however, that is easy to demonstrate as fallacious to anyone who has the ability to observe from a sufficiently neutral position.

I'm not in absolute despair about this situation, though. In normal group dynamics this kind of subgrouping is natural. The way that resolves is for members in each group to first consolidate together enough to make themselves open to differences among their own group. If they can integrate those differences successfully, that will make them increasingly open to the diversity present in the other group.

Of course, I do hope the world doesn't fall apart before we get to that point. For those of us able to escape this dynamic, I'm not sure what's best. But I feel a bit less alone with you around.

That's the rub...

We have many political movements that turn into social shifts that go horribly wrong. Germany, Russia, China, France, ect. Sometimes, these groups are sufficiently able to get past the barriers that prevent atrocities, and sometimes they are not. We seem to be pointing ourselves down a path that I would rather us not continue down. When openness disappears, bad things happen.

A song in a P&N section of a tech forum is not the be all end for sure, but, its a dead canary.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,261
15,674
136
That's the rub...

We have many political movements that turn into social shifts that go horribly wrong. Germany, Russia, China, France, ect. Sometimes, these groups are sufficiently able to get past the barriers that prevent atrocities, and sometimes they are not. We seem to be pointing ourselves down a path that I would rather us not continue down. When openness disappears, bad things happen.

A song in a P&N section of a tech forum is not the be all end for sure, but, its a dead canary.

I fail to see where liberals rail on this song in this thread? I do see SSlow go hypbole as usual and you rambling about "the lefts sexualizing young children"- or what the hell you were getting at.. Beyond you and SSlow I just see a bunch of people discussing cultural differences up through the decades with no drama at all. You and Slow should check yourselves.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I fail to see where liberals rail on this song in this thread? I do see SSlow go hypbole as usual and you rambling about "the lefts sexualizing young children"- or what the hell you were getting at.. Beyond you and SSlow I just see a bunch of people discussing cultural differences up through the decades with no drama at all. You and Slow should check yourselves.

Find the posts in this thread by the following.

pmv
zinfamous
perknose
nakedfrog
victorian gray
smogzinn

So, if you did look through the thread, you did a shit job of it.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,919
19,152
136
Find the posts in this thread by the following.

pmv
zinfamous
perknose
nakedfrog
victorian gray
smogzinn

So, if you did look through the thread, you did a shit job of it.
I'm not outraged, I'm not calling for banning the song, I just think it's indisputably creepy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(And also a shit song from day 1, just in general)
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
Psssst.. how many liberals vs conservatives would you say is on this sub?
- Would you be terrible surprised that, if you asked like 100 liberals about this topic and got two negative replies, that those replies would be from two liberals?
- Just asking!


You're in your bubble and missing the reason this thread exists. There is cause for the offended liberal snowflake stereotype to exist.