Methanol as alternative fuel source: why or why not?

[Fausto]

I've noticed with the many middle east threads lately that there has been an undercurrent "we need to drastically reduce our dependency on foreign energy sources" sentiment in most of them. Most of us seem to agree that this would be a great thing, however there appears to be no clear alternative to middle east oil (or any oil for that matter). After doing a bit of digging on alternative-fuel vehicles, methanol seems worthy of a serious look as a possible replacement for gasoline. Not only can a vehicle run on liquid methanol with the same level of performance we're used to with gas engines, but it can also be used as the Hydrogen source in fuel cell vehicles. It is by no means a "clean" energy source, but it does seem to be cleaner than current gas/diesel engines (lower nitrogen oxide emissions, lower reactive hydrocarbon emissions, almost no particulate matter). The other big plus that I see is that it is a potentially renewable resource (although we currently make most of our methanol from natural gas).

What do you guys think? What are the cons to methanol as a fuel source? How would a shift to methanol tie into america's farming industry (assuming that's who would be producing the biomass from which to distill the methanol)? Discuss.

Fausto

 

[vi edit]

I'm not a chemical engineer, so in laymans terms, what difference does methanol have over ethanol?

I know that methanol is "wood" alcohol and that ethanol is "grain" alcohol. One is fatal to injest, the other is not

Is there any reason to choose methanol over ethanol?

 

[FoBoT]

some places have been selling gas with 5-10% ethanol in it since the 70's and still do

if you put more than that into gasoline used in a gasoline engine, you'll get engine damage (i think the octane is too low or too high or something)

so if you wanted to use 100% ethanol, you would have to get a totally different car/engine and if the fuel wasn't widely available, what would you do?

 

[Fausto]

if you put more than that into gasoline used in a gasoline engine, you'll get engine damage (i think the octane is too low or too high or something)

so if you wanted to use 100% ethanol, you would have to get a totally different car/engine and if the fuel wasn't widely available, what would you do?

It's a high-octane fuel and less combustible than gas. I know that some race cars (indy cars for example) run on methanol. What is different internally in those cars from a Ford Taurus? Are we talking a total retool to produce dedicated methanol engines, or something less involved?

Fausto

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I believe Brazil has cars that run on some sort of *anol fermented from sugarcane. I don't remember if it's ethanol or methanol though.

 

[FoBoT]

ok

link1

There are two main types of ethanol-blends: low-level and high-level.

Low-level ethanol blends are blended in a proportion of 5-10% ethanol with 90-95% gasoline.
High-level ethanol blends are usually blended in a proportion of 85% ethanol with 15% gasoline (sometimes refered to as E85).
All cars built since the 1970s are fully compatible with up to 10% ethanol in their mixture. Manufacturers approve the use of low-level blends and warranty their use.

High-level blends (E85) are not compatible with all motor vehicles. Vehicles that are able to burn E85 are called Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV). Several auto manufacturers produce FFVs and several government fleets are buying FFVs to help meet commitments to global environmental accords.

 

[geekender]

Seems as if we were going to revamp our fossil fuel dependant fleet it would be more prudent to investigate further the transition to hydrogen fuel cells rather than retool and replace with another "scarce" resource.

 

[trmiv]

A lot of race cars use methanol as fuel, including the kind I race, so I can tell you some of the problems we encounter. One of the biggest disadvantages of methanol is that it is corrosive. It eats away fuel lines, gaskets, etc. When it's run in race cars, you have to make sure to flush the carb and fuel lines out if you are not going to be running the car for a period of time.

Another problem is, it creates bad fumes. When standing next to a car running methanol, your eyes water badly and it is very uncomfortable. I can't imagine what it would be like if every car on the street was running it.

Also, it takes double the methanol (roughly) to create the same power as gasoline, so you have to carry much more methanol to have the same range as gasoline,

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: geekender
Seems as if we were going to revamp our fossil fuel dependant fleet it would be more prudent to investigate further the transition to hydrogen fuel cells rather than retool and replace with another "scarce" resource.

It's only "scarce" if we continue to use Nat Gas as the source. Wood chips ain't exactly scarce.

Trmiv: a few questions for you.

1) How different are the internals of a race car running methanol vs a street car?

2) Are you running methanol or nitromethane? Is there a difference in corrosiveness? Is there an easy fix (ie- coating internals with something not corroded by meth)?

3) As far as the emissions go, you're talking about race cars (no emissions standards). What about a dedicated street car with the full gamut of anti-emissions equipment?

Thanks,
Fausto

 

[FrustratedUser]

The advantage of methanol in racecars is that you can run much higher compression and produce more power. But methanol contains less energy/kg than gas so you need to use more of it.

Methanol is a bit cleaner.

Methanol is corrosive.

I don't know what he ment when he said it produces bad fumes. Maybe hes if it is a dragracer that spits out unburned methanol then , yes it hurts your eyes.

 

[trmiv]

1) How different are the internals of a race car running methanol vs a street car?

Internally they aren't much different, these are just small block chevy's (or ford, mopar). Of course, the engines are built differently when they run on methanol, but that is a performance thing. They use all the same components. The main difference is in the carburetor. You run much bigger jets with methanol

2) Are you running methanol or nitromethane? Is there a difference in corrosiveness? Is there an easy fix (ie- coating internals with something not corroded by meth)?

Currently I'm running gasoline, but we've run methanol many times in the past. The biggest problem with corrosion is in the fuel lines, carb gaskets, fuel cell, fuel filter etc. Plastics, rubber, and some metal can be damaged by methanol. I'm sure there are coatings that can slow it down, but it isn't used in race a whole lot, because parts are just replaced. My dad also had a problem when he was racing where the methanol gummed up on him, and got stuck in the fuel lines.

3) As far as the emissions go, you're talking about race cars (no emissions standards). What about a dedicated street car with the full gamut of anti-emissions equipment?

I have no idea about that. I would guess they could reduce it somewhat, but you would never get rid of it entirely. Methanol is just nasty stuff when it burns.


Another problem I forgot to mention with methanol is, cars can be hard to start when cold. Sometimes it takes a shot of ether in the carb to get them going. I'm sure that could be overcome on a street car though.

There are a lot of advantages in using methanol for racing though. The biggest one is, it's like free horsepower. You can build an engine that can put out some serious power pretty easy running on methanol. Plus, methanol engines are pretty clean inside. They don't get the carbon and gum deposits that gas engines do.

I don't know what he ment when he said it produces bad fumes. Maybe hes if it is a dragracer that spits out unburned methanol then , yes it hurts your eyes.

Nope, not a drag racer. It does put out bad fumes. When you are standing next to a race car in the pits that is running methanol, it will hurt your eyes. This weekend the two cars pitting on each side of me were on methanol, and when they were running the cars in the pits, I had to leave I was tearing up so bad. You don't get that problem with gas.

 

[Peetoeng]

I don't know what he ment when he said it produces bad fumes. Maybe hes if it is a dragracer that spits out unburned methanol then , yes it hurts your eyes.

Remember the smell of formaldehyde in high school biology lab? Alcohol engines emit aldehydes among other unburned or partially burned hydrocarbons. Aldehydes are not just foul-smelling, but carcinogens.

 

[Vadatajs]

Car CAN be run on methanol. They won't however. The oil industry will lobby against it, as will the auto industry, so any possible change will go nowhere. There is too much invested in the current system to allow for any change in the forseeable future.

 

[SmackdownHotel]

Originally posted by: vi_edit


I know that methanol is "wood" alcohol and that ethanol is "grain" alcohol. One is fatal to injest, the other is not

Actually, you're wrong. Both are fatal to injest, just in different doses. ~200mL of ethanol will kill you.

 

[rgwalt]

Methanol has a much lower energy density than gasoline, and the majority of the methanol produced today is made using synthesis gas. Syn gas is extracted from the ground or produced from fossil fuels. Producing methanol or ethanol for industrial applications via fermentation isn't cost effective. The reason is that yeasts can only produce up to around 8% to 10% alcohol concentration before they die (usually its even lower). Furthermore, the production of the alcohols must be done as a batch or semi-batch process, which is inherently more expensive. Finally, purification of the alcohols is costly because of the ammount of water that must be removed as well as the trouble with running into an azeotrope.

Ryan