Merkel : U.S. as global rival threat that, along with China and Russia, Europe must unite against

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Nov 8, 2012
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NATO is already dead from a European/US perspective I suspect so in that way Putin has already won by playing Trump for a fool.

Up until 2017 I think Germany would be absolutely certain that if Russia were to attack it that the US would come to their defense. If you were Germany today would you feel the same certainty? I wouldn’t.

The sheer stupidity of the US throwing away its most important alliance in exchange for nothing is sure to be studied in the future.

We might have a stupid president, but that doesn't mean we gained a stupid military as well. Aside from stupid words said by Trump - which the EU is smart enough to know to ignore - what has the US done that is so anti-EU?
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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We might have a stupid president, but that doesn't mean we gained a stupid military as well.

The military does what the president tells it to.

Aside from stupid words said by Trump - which the EU is smart enough to know to ignore - what has the US done that is so anti-EU?

Trump has imposed tariffs on the EU based on the legal rationale that they are a national security threat. If someone has publicly declared you a threat to them would you bank on the idea of them coming to defend you?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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We might have a stupid president, but that doesn't mean we gained a stupid military as well. Aside from stupid words said by Trump - which the EU is smart enough to know to ignore - what has the US done that is so anti-EU?

We don't beg for their approval and words of affirmation like a 15 year old groupie waiting to flash their tits and blow the guitarist backstage if given a chance.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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Yeah, the Rooskies are just waiting for the correct moment to stream their armor through the Fulda Gap because Trump said something stupid. And thus Germany is going to kick out our bases and start devoting billions more deustchemarks to defense spending. Sounds totally plausible.

Huh? Did you read my post before responding?

Also, you would think that someone with your excellent read on international affairs would realize the mark hasn't existed for almost two decades now.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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I’m really scared by that “nightmare scenario” of a Europe that could (1) leave NATO (2) position itself as a military rival to the U.S. that’s willing to use force against the U.S. (3) raise defense spending enough to credibly defend itself from the U.S. and/or (4) stop a military overflight on a bombing run. The odds of Trump not acting like an asshole for the rest of his term is far lower than your hypothetical.

1) It would be NATO leaving the US

2) Since Trump proves that the US can become an enemy it's prudent to prepare for the possibility of US hostility but nukes aren't meant to start a war. Instead, they provide leverage to modify the behaviors of others. MAD comes to mind.

3) Why on earth would the EU need a multitrillion-dollar war machine? A tiny fraction of that amount is all that's necessary as it costs far more to dominate the world than to achieve a deadly retaliatory capability.

4) Stopping a military overflight? So you believe that the US is a material threat to the global community then. We're as bad as your "nightmare" is, eh? If the US tried that then you are turning what seems irrelevant, the rest of the world, to unite seriously against us. How clever that would be. Now perhaps you believe Trump would bomb Europe and he might, but there are ways for a sophisticated technological society to make their airspace virtually useless. Upon US aggression then domestic flights land and full measures taken that makes flight unsafe. No shooting down necessary, just jam communications and nav.

The "NIghtmare" exists already and heaven help us if his taxes are lawfully obtained, eh?
 
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glenn1

Lifer
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Huh? Did you read my post before responding?

Also, you would think that someone with your excellent read on international affairs would realize the mark hasn't existed for almost two decades now.

Whoosh was the sound of my point going over your head. If they don't have any more maybe they can borrow some from the League of Nations. Germans gotta defend themselves from threats like the Soviets, Ottoman Empire, and of course the United States.

 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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Whoosh was the sound of my point going over your head. If they don't have any more maybe they can borrow some from the League of Nations. Germans gotta defend themselves from threats like the Soviets, Ottoman Empire, and of course the United States.

I think you may not have realized how unintentionally funny this post is because in this thread you're basically John Belushi.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

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We don't beg for their approval and words of affirmation like a 15 year old groupie waiting to flash their tits and blow the guitarist backstage if given a chance.

Be careful or we will look at Trump's taxes. You may be right about not begging. After all the authoritarian of Germany didn't wait for approval to invade Poland or France. That Trump has declared economic war on the world and US citizens with mindless tariffs based on fictional and frankly crazy reasons based on no realities at all? Well certainly the global population needs to beg and flash their tits in approval, but anyone versed in economics even at an extremely fundamental level understands that.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
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Having the EU as an enemy as opposed to an ally sure sounds like a bad idea and honestly who gives a fuck about Germany’s defense spending.

It continues to baffle me that people think the US stations troops in Germany as some sort of favor to them. How dumb have we become as a society that anyone would believe this?
Then lets unstation them. Shut down every base in the EU, and use the money saved for universal healthcare. I'm ready to pull the plug on every base that isn't on US soil, and that includes pulling out of nato.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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I think you may not have realized how unintentionally funny this post is because in this thread you're basically John Belushi.

Don't forget cats and dogs living in sin.

Isn't he supposed to be a CPA or something? He seems to have no understanding of how things work. Failure to understand history and technology and the basics of diplomacy don't come with that but whoa.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Then lets unstation them. Shut down every base in the EU, and use the money saved for universal healthcare. I'm ready to pull the plug on every base that isn't on US soil, and that includes pulling out of nato.

I agree. No bases, no military and no access to European controlled airspace. No shared intel, nothing. Let the EU treat the US like China and Russia as the last is certainly favored by Trump at this time. We are Perfidious Albion and perhaps it's time for the rest of the world to turn away from us by degrees. Do I want that? No but we are begging for that to happen with just cause.

But first let's stop pretending we are anyone's allies with the possible exception of Russia and recall our forces and close all bases outside our borders.
 

fskimospy

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Then lets unstation them. Shut down every base in the EU, and use the money saved for universal healthcare. I'm ready to pull the plug on every base that isn't on US soil, and that includes pulling out of nato.

If you want the US to stop projecting power over there that's fine. I'm all for cutting the military budget to about a third of what it is or less and I agree with you about using that for health care or really anything else instead.

While I doubt many Americans would agree with us on this at least it's an honest position. It's pretty irritating to see people in the US acting like we're doing other countries some sort of favor by stationing troops in them. We're not - we're advancing our interests.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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While I doubt many Americans would agree with us on this at least it's an honest position. It's pretty irritating to see people in the US acting like we're doing other countries some sort of favor by stationing troops in them. We're not - we're advancing our interests.

Thats not what South Korea says....
 

Hayabusa Rider

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If you want the US to stop projecting power over there that's fine. I'm all for cutting the military budget to about a third of what it is or less and I agree with you about using that for health care or really anything else instead.

While I doubt many Americans would agree with us on this at least it's an honest position. It's pretty irritating to see people in the US acting like we're doing other countries some sort of favor by stationing troops in them. We're not - we're advancing our interests.

We could spend that money on climate first then health care second, although intelligent reform on the care needs to be a great effort as well. But America's Dick, the military, cannot be seen to be shrinking to Republicans and unfortunately a great many others.
 

fskimospy

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Thats not what South Korea says....

You think we have troops stationed in South Korea out of the goodness of our hearts?

I didn't say that the countries we have troops stationed in derive no benefit from it, I simply said that's not why we do it.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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While I doubt many Americans would agree with us on this at least it's an honest position. It's pretty irritating to see people in the US acting like we're doing other countries some sort of favor by stationing troops in them. We're not - we're advancing our interests.

What interests would those be? Selling more Raytheon products to EU allies? The ability to slightly more quickly conduct a bombing run on a wedding party? Trying to prevent a conflict that already happened almost a century ago by belligerent politicians who have been dead longer than any of us have been alive?

Merkel isn’t Kaiser Wilhelm and Putin isn’t Czar Alexander. Neither Germans nor Russians are going to be marching on Poland anytime soon.
 

fskimospy

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What interests would those be? Selling more Raytheon products to EU allies? The ability to slightly more quickly conduct a bombing run on a wedding party? Trying to prevent a conflict that already happened almost a century ago by belligerent politicians who have been dead longer than any of us have been alive?

US bases in Germany are vital supply infrastructure for US forces in the Middle East and is the center for US operations in East Africa. US forces would become drastically weaker in both what types of operations they could perform and how long they could sustain them without German bases. Now if you think the US shouldn't have those interests that's fine but our government clearly disagrees with you. Pretending they don't exist is silliness though.

Do you realize how much of the men and material used in the invasion of Iraq came from Germany or were supplied through it?

Merkel isn’t Kaiser Wilhelm and Putin isn’t Czar Alexander. Neither Germans nor Russians are going to be marching on Poland anytime soon.

Attacks take a lot of different forms. Just look at Crimea.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

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You think we have troops stationed in South Korea out of the goodness of our hearts?

I didn't say that the countries we have troops stationed in derive no benefit from it, I simply said that's not why we do it.

I'm now used to the utter lack of understanding of how the world works. Someone once said to the effect of "Nations do not have friends, they have common interests". Stability of relationship including military and economic alliances evaporates when the rug is swept from underneath countries especially when there is no logic or good purpose. The Mad Hatter in the WH created a situation which turned trade into economic warfare against those in which we have an interest to support is stupid.

Regarding common interests and the military, we project global power which supports the agenda of the government and businesses in the US, for good or ill. We're not protecting Europe, we're not protecting SK, Japan or anyone else because we are the "good guys", we do it because up until now their failure works against us and that is not well understood now. So sure we'll stay with SK and Israel. The rest of the world is of less intrinsic value when viewed by simpletons and therefore everyone else had better reconsider their economic and military dependence.

One possible outcome of all this is an EU-Sino pact for trade which would likely pull in Australia and Japan at some point. India would likely stay out of serious entanglements or commitments as the US becomes ever more isolated and economically and technologically less relevant.

But at least Trump might get to keep his taxes hidden, a much more important thing. :D
 
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Hayabusa Rider

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What interests would those be? Selling more Raytheon products to EU allies? The ability to slightly more quickly conduct a bombing run on a wedding party? Trying to prevent a conflict that already happened almost a century ago by belligerent politicians who have been dead longer than any of us have been alive?

Merkel isn’t Kaiser Wilhelm and Putin isn’t Czar Alexander. Neither Germans nor Russians are going to be marching on Poland anytime soon.

Trump is Chuckles the Clown so we have that going for us, a clown that is edging towards another Iraq type scenario that's ten times as bad and the US can go it alone, entirely. Yes, Iraq was identical to bombing a wedding party or so you seem to think when ignoring history.

So yes, move our military back to the US borders by all means and the EU can use its vast technological expertise to turn from Raytheon or US-controlled corporations. I'm sure China could be persuaded to help out.

Closing the US global arms markets? Why not? It's not like anyone can keep an f-35 in the air for long anyway.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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Yeah, the Rooskies are just waiting for the correct moment to stream their armor through the Fulda Gap because Trump said something stupid. And thus Germany is going to kick out our bases and start devoting billions more deustchemarks to defense spending. Sounds totally plausible.

the-soviet-light-tank-t26-picture-id650549664
....................................................... I cant tell if serious
 

VRAMdemon

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Aug 16, 2012
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German Chancellor Angela Merkel lumped in the United States with Europe’s other global adversaries on Wednesday, arguing that the countries on the continent need to band together against the challenges posed by Russia, China and the U.S.

“There is no doubt that Europe needs to reposition itself in a changed world…. The old certainties of the postwar order no longer apply,” Merkel told the German media on Wednesday.

And that's before Trump starts bombing Iran for no reason.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

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....................................................... I cant tell if serious


He's serious enough to entirely misrepresent the situation. I wonder what his posts about Iraq were before, during and after the "peace" of the military victory was? If he made no comments I wonder if he was all in.

Prediction I'll likely be dead for- by 2040 there will be a EU-Sino agreement and perhaps treaty that overshadows the US economically and perhaps in military strength. Trump and Republicans are in the same situation the USSR was when it collapsed, spending at an unsustainable military while attacking its economy in the long run. That last bit might be avoided or mitigated but not if Trumpettes have their way.
 

VRAMdemon

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A big danger now was foreseen in the parable about the shepherd boy brat named Donald who cried 'Wolf.' I, for one, won't believe anything the oaf says — and he's surrounded himself with sycophants who are all also liars.

This doesn't just go for me and a majority of rational Americans. Our traditional allies have no faith in the veracity of tweets and farts from this Administration. Our new "ally," Russia, is of course delighted with most disinformation.

European foreign ministers did not offer Pompeo a group meeting during his sudden visit to Brussels this week, perhaps fearing a photo-op would be seen as an endorsement of the US approach.

This was always the big danger of a Trump Presidency: the possibility of a foreign crisis requiring an adult leader. With Trump and Bolton in charge, the correct default assumption is that everything they think or say is stupid, mistaken or a deliberate lie (despite that even broken clocks can show the correct time by chance).