Mechanical keyboard: Das or Leopold and a few questions please

[nine9s]

3 questions on mechanical keyboards please:

1) I have decided I will get either a Das or Leopold. Seems most think Leopold is better. Anyone for Das? Is Leopold superior quality and fit and finish or are they comparable? Which seems to have more problems?

2) Are my expectations to high: I want a quality keyboard. One that would have no problems unless a lemon, in which case I should learn soon and can use the warranty. I expect it to perform solidly for a minimum of five years and would like to see 7 to 10. Unrealistic? And if it does need warranty service, any experience with warranty claims from either Das or Leopold - hard/easy to deal with either?

3) I am trying to decide which switch to get. As I recall from IBM keyboards 20 years ago, I like the feel of a thud/trigger when the key produces a character but I would not like it to get soft and easily bottom out after that happens - do they stay firm in pressure? I also would like it be harder to push down than average - I want a solid, firm feeling in it. I think the brown switches might fit that bill. Or a different color? or none would do that?


Thanks for any help and sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure it is the right keyboard for me. Thanks for any help.

 

[dawza]

I can't comment for Das or Leopold, as I've only used Filco (browns), Scorpius (blues), ans SteelSeries (blacks). I do have pretty extensive experience with Model Ms for comparison, though.

The Cherry keys are much lighter than buckling springs (pretty much everything is). Currently, my daily driver are browns with dampeners. Prior to the browns, I was an exclusive buckling spring user for years. The noise finally got to my wife, but I'd still be using my Ms if I had a choice.

I also prefer a heavier keystroke, and the Cherry browns take some time to get used to. They almost feel flimsy compared to an M at first, and I initially made a lot of errors from hitting adjacent keys. Now that I'm used to the browns, they're tolerable. I still plan to return to my M as soon as I figure out a way to build a soundproof cubicle for my home workstation.

If you plan to use the keyboard in an open office work environment, browns are about the only safe choice if you want tactility. Blues are still a bit too clicky (but I would go for blues over browns any day), and the clickly Alps are even worse noise-wise.

 

[Pia]

Das doesn't have a spotless quality history. Their initial keyboards were just blank membrane boards with no pretense of being high quality. After switching to mechanical boards, they sold a defective board for a long time while knowing it was defective; in their mind the defect was OK because it only affected very fast typists. I think their boards look cheap as well.

Leopolds are supposed to be much like Filcos. This is a good thing. I have never heard of Leopolds having any particular quality problems. I actually suspect I'd like Leopold better than my Filco because my Filco's spacebar has a slight rattle (yup, this is the only "fault" I can find in the keyboard) and Leopold spacebars seem to have a better stabilizer structure.

 

[XLNC]

1) Never owned either, so I can't comment on their quality.

2) No, your expectations are not too high. If you're paying $100+ for a keyboard, you should expect it to last 10 years with good care.

3) If you want the tactile "trigger," blues and browns are your options. Browns are less noisy, but blues require just a bit more force which you seem to want. I have both, and I prefer the browns. Really though, browns and blues are pretty much equal. The improvement over rubber dome is what matters the most (if noise isn't an issue.)

On a side note, I recently bought a Ducky w/ red switches, and I now prefer the non tactile switches over all. It's oh so light and silky smooth.

 

[nine9s]

On a side note, I recently bought a Ducky w/ red switches, and I now prefer the non tactile switches over all. It's oh so light and silky smooth.

Without the trigger, is it mushy feeling since it gets firmer the further you push?

 

[Cerb]

I also prefer a heavier keystroke, and the Cherry browns take some time to get used to. They almost feel flimsy compared to an M at first, and I initially made a lot of errors from hitting adjacent keys. Now that I'm used to the browns, they're tolerable. I still plan to return to my M as soon as I figure out a way to build a soundproof cubicle for my home workstation.

You will post pics of it over in OT, right? :awe:

To the OP: I've used some blues (POS, where they are good), and IMO, they're not very suitable for gaming. They have a bit of dead space, once pressed, so light tapping is difficult (keeping your finger on the key, near the switching point, for twitchy on/off action). That dead space, however, is caused by the extra piece of plastic in them that gives them their clear tactile actuating feel (how about some animated gifs?). For typing, it's not a problem. I don't think anything good is out there to match the resistance of buckling spring, but quite frankly, even other mechanical keyboards, and electric typewriters, from way back when, didn't have anywhere close to the resistance of IBM buckling springs.

Finally, if you want buckling spring, since you don't meantion anything about noise in the post, Unicomp sells them.

 

[nine9s]

Finally, if you want buckling spring, since you don't meantion anything about noise in the post, Unicomp sells them.

I was thinking about them. I am starting to think Cheery switch keyboards might tend to have chatter - switch enter multiple characters on one push sometimes. Elitekeyboards talks of this in its support section and I have read some message forums where users said it happens every now and then. I think the Unicomp would not have that problem since not a true single switch in each key - each presses a membrane after the spring collapses. Seems over time that would be more consistent.

Guy at Unicomp said they do 2 key roll-overs and some special keys will register with more than that like ctrl-alt-delete. I play a lot of game but I use a game-pad and mouse and I am a slow typist, so I doubt I would need roll-over that the newer boards offer. Do you agree - roll-over is mainly for gamers or fast typists? Or is it something I would miss?

So with a longer problem track-record and lower price, Unicomp see ma good choice, plus for $5 restocking fee, they allow a return - so at least I have that as peace of mind if I do not like it.

Is the feedback feel one gets from the IBM/Unicomp good? It seems many prefer them sans the noise.

 

[Pia]

I play a lot of game but I use a game-pad and mouse and I am a slow typist, so I doubt I would need roll-over that the newer boards offer. Do you agree - roll-over is mainly for gamers or fast typists? Or is it something I would miss?

There is one more category of people who need decent rollover characteristics, and that is people who remap keys on their keyboard. Every keyboard with 2-key rollover I have tried has failed me in just regular office use after remapping.

 

[dawza]

You will post pics of it over in OT, right? :awe:

Gladly.

To OP: I agree with what the other posters said about buckling springs (BS) and Cherry switches. Nothing Cherry makes will get you remotely close to the feel of a BS. The old Northgate Alps were close, but good luck tracking one of those down.

I've owned four BS keyboards; three Ms and one Unicomp. Two of the three Ms were used, and one new. The new Ms were a bit stiffer, but once broken in, I felt right at home. So, if you want a new BS board, Unicomp is probably your best bet.

IMO, nothing comes close to the smoothness and precision of a BS. In the link Cerb provided, you can see that the buckling of the spring perfectly corresponds with acutation and tactile and aural feedback. The tactile/aural feedback from Cherry switches is just a tiny bit disconnected from keystroke registration.

As far as bottoming out, it's actually much easier to do so with a Cherry switch vs. a BS IMO. You quickly and easily learn to avoid bottoming out with a BS due to (a) the deeper keystroke, and (b) the perfect coordination between stroke registration and tactile/aural feedback. If you're heavy-handed (like me), you may never quite get the hang of not bottoming out with a Cherry switch; on the other hand, if you have a dainty fairy touch, a BS may be too much for you to handle.

I average about 60-70 WPM with either a BS or brown/blue Cherry switches, but am far more accurate with a BS. In fact, I prefer the Thinkpad keyboards to Cherry switches simply because lightly (for me) brushing an adjacent key does not result in a actual stroke being registered.

P.S. I've occasionally experienced "sticky" keys with my Filco brown Cherry board, where pressing on a certain key-- left Shift for example-- results in continued acutation even after release. This is very rare, but has happened on at least three separate occasions. I've had zero issues with my Ms, and my oldest M was born in 1984, purchased (well) used, and is still going strong.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

How about a Corsair K60? is it junk? Red switches

 

[nine9s]

I tried a friend's Adesso with blue switches. I liked it better than the rubber dome keyboards that I have always used, but the keys were rather light (easy to press) in my opinion. I would rather have keys that take a little more force. I am also not sure if I like the clicking feel - to be honest I could not really tell when it clicked but something made it not seem springy (did not seem to come back snappy-like as I thought it would.)

Based on my feelings of how the blue Cherry switches felt, should I probably get black-switches?

 

[Raswan]

I've got the Das Pro, been using it since xmas, and love it. Initially, I was worried it would be too loud for me, but I've gotten used to it and actually wouldn't have it any other way. Typing on this PoS membrane keyboard at school right now is actually painful.

Highly recommend the Das.

 

[Pia]

I tried a friend's Adesso with blue switches. I liked it better than the rubber dome keyboards that I have always used, but the keys were rather light (easy to press) in my opinion. I would rather have keys that take a little more force. I am also not sure if I like the clicking feel - to be honest I could not really tell when it clicked but something made it not seem springy (did not seem to come back snappy-like as I thought it would.)

Based on my feelings of how the blue Cherry switches felt, should I probably get black-switches?

Well, if you want more resistance in a Cherry switch than blue, then it's either blacks (linear) or clears (clicky).

Did you abandon the Unicomp idea for some reason?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

The kb i'm selling in sig is Black Cherry. ...just thought i'd throw that out there.. no reason at all ... :whiste:

 

[Cerb]

Is the feedback feel one gets from the IBM/Unicomp good? It seems many prefer them sans the noise.

Noise is definitely an issue. The resistance is greater than any Cherry key switches I know of. My Google-fu tells me my keys need around 80g.

 

[nine9s]

The kb i'm selling in sig is Black Cherry. ...just thought i'd throw that out there.. no reason at all ... :whiste:

What is your opinion on black switches? How is the feel?

 

[nine9s]

Well, if you want more resistance in a Cherry switch than blue, then it's either blacks (linear) or clears (clicky).

Did you abandon the Unicomp idea for some reason?

I am concerned about the non-roll over ability of it. I mostly use a G13 gamepad for games and I am getting on Nostromos, so I do not play a lot of games on the keyboard but I do play some via keyboard, and would hate not being able to use more than 2 keys ever. Although I am not sure if my other keyboards had roll-over and the more complex games, I use the game-pad and mouse, so maybe it should not be a concern. What do you think?

Also, I\is the Unicomp/IBM superior in feel to Cherry switches? It would save me $20 to $30 to get the Unicomp over the Leopold. And a guy at Elitekeyboards today, when I called for a switch color recommendation, told me that if I thought the Cherry-blue was weak and I wanted stronger, then Unicomps would be a good choice. Since he was talking himself out of a sale by recommending Unicomp, he must sincerely think that it would be a better match from what I told him I guess. Although in appreciation for him being so candid, I want to do business with his company.

 

[dawza]

What is your opinion on black switches? How is the feel?

Awful for typing. I sold my black-equipped SteelSeries after a few days' use. I'd rather type on
a rubber dome.

 

[Pia]

I am concerned about the non-roll over ability of it. I mostly use a G13 gamepad for games and I am getting on Nostromos, so I do not play a lot of games on the keyboard but I do play some via keyboard, and would hate not being able to use more than 2 keys ever. Although I am not sure if my other keyboards had roll-over and the more complex games, I use the game-pad and mouse, so maybe it should not be a concern. What do you think?

Unless you have owned a mechanical keyboard or a Microsoft Sidewinder, all of your keyboards to date have been 2-key rollover. The number describes the amount of simultaneous keypresses which *always* register correctly regardless of which keys are in question. In other words, on a 2KRO board there is at least some 3-key combination which does not register. In practice the board will always support many multi-key combinations and fail some. You just can't count on any particular 3-key combination working, other than combinations of modifier keys and up to 2 normal keys. Chances are you'd be fine gaming with the Unicomp if the key feel doesn't prove too tough for that.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

I'm using one of these.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823201040

Replaced my IBM model M after I killed it with liquid. I love typing on it and it feels solidly built. Haven't had any issues over the two years that I have owned it.

N-key rollover as well.

Edit: Looks like the newer version comes with some sort of detachable cable that isn't well made. Check the newegg reviews. Mine has a permanent cable and has given me zero issues.

 

[nine9s]

Awful for typing. I sold my black-equipped SteelSeries after a few days' use. I'd rather type on
a rubber dome.

Thanks I was worried about that. Mushy like rubber domes?

How about the Unicomp/IBM - how is the feel on bucklings spring keyboard?

 

[dawza]

Thanks I was worried about that. Mushy like rubber domes?

How about the Unicomp/IBM - how is the feel on bucklings spring keyboard?

From point 3 in your initial post, it sounds like a BS will fit the bill. The only question is if noise is a concern. There's nothing remotely close to the feel of a BS available on the market today, AFAIK. The old Northgate Omnikey 101 boards with the complicated white Alps switch are the only real contender; there's a guy who repairs and sells Northgates (Northgate Keyboard Repair), but I'm not sure if any manufacturer is actually making new boards with that particular switch. The ABS M1 with the simplified Alps was unimpressive, IMO-- another board I sold shortly after purchase.

If BS is too much for you, but Cherry is too light/not tactile enough, an Omnikey 101 might actually be the optimal middle ground. I think the guy who repairs/refurbs them sells the boards for $100 or so. Not cheap, but a solid deal for a venerable working piece of keyboard history. I've a bit of first-hand experience with the Omnikey 101-- if I were in the market for a new battleship, I'd give them very serious consideration.

Edit: To address your question about the blacks-- it's not so much that they're mushy, although that's not inaccurate. The thing about the blacks is that there is no tactile feedback + they're heavy. If you're used to any board and aren't the kind of person who bottoms out with a very heavy stroke, Cherry blacks are almost like typing into an abyss. I have a heavy stroke, but it's only heavy until I feel the tactile break (with any switch that is not strictly linear). With the blacks, I just feel lost. The only thing I can do is bottom out, which trains me to bang on keys. I can see their use for gaming, and certainly in POS/commercial systems where the durability of a simple linear switch would be paramount. For touch-typing? Not so much.

 

[XLNC]

Without the trigger, is it mushy feeling since it gets firmer the further you push?

It doesn't feel firmer at the bottom, it feels quite linear. I would not use the word mushy at all in regards to the red, brown, or blue switches...

Awful for typing. I sold my black-equipped SteelSeries after a few days' use. I'd rather type on
a rubber dome.

...on black switches however, I'd agree with dawza. My only experience with it was at microcenter for about 15 minutes, and I nearly wrote off mechanicals altogether. Unfortunately, I then tried the Blackwidow with blue switches and now I'm hooked.

 

[Jakeisbest]

I'll chime in here. I have had a DAS with cherry Blues for about 2 years. The only problem which I have found is that the shiny case is a dust magnet.

I also have a choc mini with brown switches, which is my current favorite.

 

[nine9s]

I ordered an Ultra Classic from Unicomp today.