Same could be said about dems and Obama. As long as his people hate "America and Whitey" it's okay right? No big deal brush it under the rug.
Same could be said about dems and Obama. As long as his people hate "America and Whitey" it's okay right? No big deal brush it under the rug.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
It is interesting to watch the so called religious right. GWB was somewhat determined not repeat his daddy's mistake and actively courted the religious right. Quite a feat for a man who lead a very amoral life before finding Laura and God. But evidently God can forgive all.
And while GWB&co. has not really done anything to change abortion laws, he has thrown quite a few bones their way. (1) GWB has given unprecedented public funding to faith based social programs. (2) GWB has appointed the right sorts of judges to the supreme court, and now, for the first time, the court may over turn Roe v. Wade.
Other than the one slip up of Harriet Miers, the conservative base and the religious right have made no real complaints of GWB.
But the McCain and religious right shotgun wedding will be an interesting match up. As most of the other GOP candidates actively pandered to the religious right, McCain had to be somewhat of a last choice with even Giuliani picking up some high profile endorsements. And Mitt Romney doing everything humanly possible to reinvent himself to appeal to the religious right. Only to see the genuine article in Mike Huckabee get those votes that all the Romney money in the world could not buy. And were it not for Huckabee neutralizing Romney, I think the GOP contest might still be going.
However, the cookie crumbled differently an the religious right is now stuck with McCain.
And we can get to the thesis of this post, NAMELY, WHAT MUST McCAIN DO PUBLICALLY AND PRIVATELY TO GET THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT TO VOTE FOR HIM IN LARGE NUMBERS COME NOVEMBER? And the other implied question, NAMELY WHAT CAN OBAMA DO TO EXPLOIT THE McCAIN PANDERING?
With a likely democratically dominated congress resulting from the election of 11/08, I am guessing that many of the publically funded faith based programs will be rolled back, its going to be very hard to get judges who have anti abortion leanings through the confirmation process, and I think Obama will be able to demonstrate a better command of the scriptures than McCain as the debates progress. That and the fact that many of the religious right voting base has been greatly injured by the economic policies of the past eight years, all lead me to the opinion that McCain will be unable to rally the religious right in large numbers to his side.
And taking the premise of this thread, namely that many of the must have figures McCain needs are whacadoodle, still leaves McCain walking a very fine line with an exploitable damned if he does and damned if he does not.
And while GWB&co. has not really done anything to change abortion laws, he has thrown quite a few bones their way. (1) GWB has given unprecedented public funding to faith based social programs. (2) GWB has appointed the right sorts of judges to the supreme court, and now, for the first time, the court may over turn Roe v. Wade.
Other than the one slip up of Harriet Miers, the conservative base and the religious right have made no real complaints of GWB.
But the McCain and religious right shotgun wedding will be an interesting match up. As most of the other GOP candidates actively pandered to the religious right, McCain had to be somewhat of a last choice with even Giuliani picking up some high profile endorsements. And Mitt Romney doing everything humanly possible to reinvent himself to appeal to the religious right. Only to see the genuine article in Mike Huckabee get those votes that all the Romney money in the world could not buy. And were it not for Huckabee neutralizing Romney, I think the GOP contest might still be going.
However, the cookie crumbled differently an the religious right is now stuck with McCain.
And we can get to the thesis of this post, NAMELY, WHAT MUST McCAIN DO PUBLICALLY AND PRIVATELY TO GET THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT TO VOTE FOR HIM IN LARGE NUMBERS COME NOVEMBER? And the other implied question, NAMELY WHAT CAN OBAMA DO TO EXPLOIT THE McCAIN PANDERING?
With a likely democratically dominated congress resulting from the election of 11/08, I am guessing that many of the publically funded faith based programs will be rolled back, its going to be very hard to get judges who have anti abortion leanings through the confirmation process, and I think Obama will be able to demonstrate a better command of the scriptures than McCain as the debates progress. That and the fact that many of the religious right voting base has been greatly injured by the economic policies of the past eight years, all lead me to the opinion that McCain will be unable to rally the religious right in large numbers to his side.
And taking the premise of this thread, namely that many of the must have figures McCain needs are whacadoodle, still leaves McCain walking a very fine line with an exploitable damned if he does and damned if he does not.
You are never going to find a political candidate that you agree with 100% on every issue. Its just not going to happen.
That leaves you with a couple of options:
Go with the person you agree with most (60%-80%)of the time.
Go with the candidate that you agree with one particular hot-button issue
"OH KNOWS, MC CAIN NOT 100% RELIGIOUS RIGHT1!!!!" So what? If he is the candidate that agrees with more with then the other guy - then you go with McCain. Its not rocket science.
From a cadidate prospective - you GROW YOUR BASE. You have a large group of people, that you don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but still agree on stuff. You go after them.
You don't win elections by alienating swaths of people because you don't line up 100%.
I don't think "those guys" have to try and uncover anything. Or did Parsely not call for the elimination of an entire religion?
You're right about it being apples and oranges. This is something much more serious, or do you disagree?
did you read the article? Or do you think 'hating america' is worse than calling for a genocide?
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,101
- 5,640
- 126
I'd agree that Obama's relationship with Wright is not the same as McCain's with Parsley, but Wright's "God damn America" statement is certainly equivalent to the RR's contention that 9/11 was "God's" judgment/punishment of the US. The big difference between the 2 was that Wright based his statement on US Foreign policy, while the RR base theirs on Homosexuality, Abortion, and various other Immoralities. Choosing between the 2, Wright's statement is the logical one, the RR's statement comes from Kooksville USA.
I must say the calls for the destruction of Islam is truly disturbing. Sounds very similar to, forgive me Godwin, the past calls for the destruction of Judaism. Of course the Devil is in the details, it could be similar to Iran's call for the destruction of Israel, in the sense of not necessarily the killing of People, but the end of a Political/Social/Religious organization. That said, the call is worded in such a way that any and all options could be the follow through of such statements and when you add in the open support of Military intervention in the Middle East, it appears that Christianity has no qualms with killing its' "enemies". So forgive me when I look at Islamic Extremists and Christian Extremists as near equivalent Bastards both worthy of my disdain.
For a people who make all kinds of stands on the "Word", it seems strange just how Wrong they can be. Jesus said many things, Killing enemies was never once indicated, in fact the exact opposite was stated. Even the highly questionable Paul never once suggested killing anyone or using Violence, yet we have the supposed "Righteous" doing exactly that today. Is it just me or does it seem that False Religions are everywhere? Sorry Parsley, but your "God" is an asshole and it stands to reason since you created it yourself and gave it life through the power of your own Hatred.
In the days of the Old Testament, False Prophets were taken to the edge of Town and stoned to death. Speaking for "God" was serious business. These days anyone can speak for "God" and the caliber of Prophets has certainly reflected that. The people so eager to see the fulfillment of Prophecy are for the most part not part of the "Righteous" the prophecies speak of and that they assume to be. Quite the opposite in fact. Even the Anti-Christ and its' followers thinks they are the Righteous, but in the End righteousness will not be determined by whom considers themselves such, but by those who simply are. Calling for the Death of anyone puts you on the wrong side of that equation.
I must say the calls for the destruction of Islam is truly disturbing. Sounds very similar to, forgive me Godwin, the past calls for the destruction of Judaism. Of course the Devil is in the details, it could be similar to Iran's call for the destruction of Israel, in the sense of not necessarily the killing of People, but the end of a Political/Social/Religious organization. That said, the call is worded in such a way that any and all options could be the follow through of such statements and when you add in the open support of Military intervention in the Middle East, it appears that Christianity has no qualms with killing its' "enemies". So forgive me when I look at Islamic Extremists and Christian Extremists as near equivalent Bastards both worthy of my disdain.
For a people who make all kinds of stands on the "Word", it seems strange just how Wrong they can be. Jesus said many things, Killing enemies was never once indicated, in fact the exact opposite was stated. Even the highly questionable Paul never once suggested killing anyone or using Violence, yet we have the supposed "Righteous" doing exactly that today. Is it just me or does it seem that False Religions are everywhere? Sorry Parsley, but your "God" is an asshole and it stands to reason since you created it yourself and gave it life through the power of your own Hatred.
In the days of the Old Testament, False Prophets were taken to the edge of Town and stoned to death. Speaking for "God" was serious business. These days anyone can speak for "God" and the caliber of Prophets has certainly reflected that. The people so eager to see the fulfillment of Prophecy are for the most part not part of the "Righteous" the prophecies speak of and that they assume to be. Quite the opposite in fact. Even the Anti-Christ and its' followers thinks they are the Righteous, but in the End righteousness will not be determined by whom considers themselves such, but by those who simply are. Calling for the Death of anyone puts you on the wrong side of that equation.
Yes, beacause there is no comparison to a black preacher stateing the US government spread Aids to black people purposely and labeling him an them "America Hater" and similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's far more mild statements. White, right-wing Christian evangelical vitrol against America is understandable, respectable.
Gimme a break...
It's not "okay" for a America hating preacher er, um "spiritual advisor" to say the 9/11 attacks are "blowback" from America's interference in the ME, but it's "okay" for another America hating evangelical christian preacher to say the 9/11 attacks are "blowback" for the evil sins of American society.
There's no comparison, and okay for the America Hater Jerry Falwell to spew his hate and blame 9\11 on "sin" and gay people and Aids. Oh, no...He's was a patriotic American. President Bush "said he was deeply saddened by Falwell's death, calling him 'a man who cherished faith, family and freedom. Baloney, this man hated America and blamed American society unless it had his America hating worldview.
There's no comparison when America Hater Hagee calls Katrina "blowback" for gay people and the evil American society. How bout it...The city of New Orleans got what it deserved when Katrina drowned its residents and devastated the lives of thousands of Americans. No, he's a patriotic American and a good card carrying Republican.
It's okay for America hating "spiritual advisor" Parsley an Ohio megachurch to call upon Christians to wage a "war" against the "false religion" of Islam with the aim of destroying it and "America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion [Islam] destroyed".All the while we have soldiers over in the ME fighting to HELP the muslum world live in peace and bring them into the modern world. Oh no....this America hater is a patriotic American. Our soldiers are "supposedly in the ME so he can have the right to spew his hate. Why does this "good"christian preacher hate America?
Its okay for America hater James Inhofe, a member in good standing in the GOP Senate Caucus to say the US provoked the 9/11 attacks for its "wickedness" of American society. The Republican Party has tied itself at the hip to a whole slew of "anti-American extremists" - people who believe that the U.S. provoked the 9/11 attacks because God wants to punish us for the evil, wicked nation we've become - and yet the is virtual silence about these associations and they are "apples to oranges comparisons".
It's okay for America hating Christian Rapture enthusiasts such as Hagee, Parsley, Inhofe, and Robertson to call for the destruction of other religons and the protection of Isreal so that god can destroy it and the jewish people. Yet the controversy created over their close ties is virtually non-existent.
The phrases "anti-American" and "America-haters" are among the most barren and manipulative in our entire political lexicon, but whatever they happen to mean on any given day, they easily encompass people who believe that the U.S. deserved the 9/11 attacks, devastating hurricanes and the like. Yet when are people like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, Inhofe and other white Christian radicals ever described as anti-American or America-hating extremists?
Never...
Because white Christian evangelicals who tie themselves to the political Right are intrinsically patriotic. Do they believe that those individuals are anti-American radicals and that people who allow their children to belong to their churches are exercising grave errors of judgment?. Shouldn't we be very concerned about American children hearing our President praise an American-hating radical who believes that our country is a sick and wicked land that God wanted to be victimized by the 9/11 attacks?
George Bush had private conversations with Pat Robertson about matters as weighty as whether to invade Iraq. Isn't that a big scandal - that the President is consulting with an American-hating minister - someone who believes God allowed the 9/11 attacks as punishment for our evil country - about vital foreign policy decisions? No, it wasn't controversial at all. Of coarse this televangalist is a patriotic American?!
Hagee and his ilk are all bigoted divide and conquer powermongers, just like Reverend Wright. Within all the Evangelical Love and Support for Israel, is the inconvenient grand finale, where everyone but "them" burn in hell for all eternity, including the Jews in Israel who don't "instantaneously convert" when the crazies and their crocoducks starting disappearing. If that is not the logical conclusion of pure bigorty, an endgame agenda of "everyone is dead and we are in Heaven with a Benevolent God who loves us", than what is?
It's pretty self-evident about the double standard that clearly, irrefutably exists in America with regard to what is and is not acceptable religious/political speech.
Havn't you gotton the memo, there's no difference in America hating preacher saying America "deserved" the 9/11 attacks and for America hating preacher saying America "caused" the 9/11 attacks.
You know, one mans America hating preacher, er...spirtual advisor is another mans freedom fighter...
Ah yes the "base"... gotta grow the "base". No matter how much America hating vitrol they spew, lets prop them up over other America hating preachers. Gotta win the election at all costs. Lets not marginalize them for being the American society haters they are. Let them marginalize our soldiers in the ME fighting for the freedom for them to spread there America hating sermons. These are good "conservitve" republican voters here?!
The Republican Party long ago adopted as a central strategy aligning itself with, and granting great influence to, the most radical, "America-hating" white evangelical Christian ministers in the country. They're given a complete pass on that because political orthodoxy mandates that white evangelical Christian ministers are inherently worthy of respect, no matter how extreme and noxious are their views. That orthodoxy stands in stark contrast to the universally enraged reaction to a few selected snippets from the angry rantings of a black Christian Minister. What accounts for that glaring disparity?
Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer - denounced America for "the sins of society" and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.
His long history of extreme "America-hating" statements, ones which never caused Republicans or Democrats to repudiate him, and says: "Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits."
Yet Schaeffer, like hordes of similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's statements.
To them White, right-wing Christian evangelical rage against America is understandable, respectable, and noble. No America hating going on here
Ridiculous...
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,914
- 2,359
- 126
I fit that description. I certainly wouldnt support outlawing islam in America (likelyhood is small anyway) but I certainly would smile if it DID happen. Go ahead call me prejudiced I really couldnt care less. Everyone is to some extent we just pick our hatred.
Hell. Hatred for Christians and their influence in our country is prejudiced too.
Is it America hating to say America has been judged?
Or to curse America by saying God damn American?
"Goddamn America... for killing innocent people, and Goddamn America... for treating her people as less than human."
That's what Wright said, and if it had been said by a White Evangelical preacher, it wouldn't have caused the slightest ripple. Only White preachers get to speak their minds, Blacks threaten the social order when they do...
The whole "controversy" is about tapping into white fears and lingering prejudice w/o actually mentioning the subject of Race, at all. And it works, because the people most affected are in a state of denial, refusing to examine their own fears.
Rev Parsley's call for a Crusade against Islam is in the same vein- most Muslims are brown or black. He exploits underlying racist fear and prejudice through misidentification, pandering to such fears w/o actually mentioning them at all.
If Willie Horton had been White, he never could have become a tool in a smear campaign. In order to realize that, of course, we have to look at ourselves first, a process and a perspective that many people don't even recognize as important, which is why they're so easily exploitable. It's always the case when we let our feelings affect our thinking rather than vice-versa...
That's what Wright said, and if it had been said by a White Evangelical preacher, it wouldn't have caused the slightest ripple. Only White preachers get to speak their minds, Blacks threaten the social order when they do...
The whole "controversy" is about tapping into white fears and lingering prejudice w/o actually mentioning the subject of Race, at all. And it works, because the people most affected are in a state of denial, refusing to examine their own fears.
Rev Parsley's call for a Crusade against Islam is in the same vein- most Muslims are brown or black. He exploits underlying racist fear and prejudice through misidentification, pandering to such fears w/o actually mentioning them at all.
If Willie Horton had been White, he never could have become a tool in a smear campaign. In order to realize that, of course, we have to look at ourselves first, a process and a perspective that many people don't even recognize as important, which is why they're so easily exploitable. It's always the case when we let our feelings affect our thinking rather than vice-versa...
You arent asking the right questions. Has McCain sat in his church for 20 years, did this guy baptise his McCain's kids, did McCain write a book after one of his speeches? I know this article claims McCain said he is a spiritual advisor but I'd like to see the proof in the pudding.
If none of the above is true. Then it is an apple's and oranges comparison and the reason why you are wasting your time. And endorsement is not the same as the Obama\Wright relationship.
I think the bigger problem is the fact that liberals see Christians say things like "wage war" and "eradicate false religions" and actually think they are referring to violence. Parsley makes no mention of "genocide" or even "killing". It shows just how little libarals actually know about these types of discussions that Christians like Parsley bring up.
I would like to point out that there are some sects in Islam whose stated purpose is to bring about the califait (Spell), whose purpose is to spread islam over the entire world and to put to the sword all who will not become muslims. This sounds like something that is against the freedom and democracy that we enjoy.
Sounds like a hate group more than a church.
I think it is a worthy endeavour to fight against hatred, murder, and the overthrow of our form of government. Perhaps he needs to quantify his remarks a bit. Some of these christians can be dangerous. This sounds similar to how they mounted hatred against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the 1800's. Joseph Smith Jr. was a martyr because Christians killed him. While today peace tends to prevail, you may be right on keeping an eye on some of these Christians.
Sounds like a hate group more than a church.
I think it is a worthy endeavour to fight against hatred, murder, and the overthrow of our form of government. Perhaps he needs to quantify his remarks a bit. Some of these christians can be dangerous. This sounds similar to how they mounted hatred against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the 1800's. Joseph Smith Jr. was a martyr because Christians killed him. While today peace tends to prevail, you may be right on keeping an eye on some of these Christians.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
The other thing to point out is that much of what Rev Wright has been saying are rare instances or taken out of context. Much of what he is preaching is a white black unity message, and when America as a larger nation falls short in certain areas, it should be permissible to say God Damn America for doing these various shortfalls.
The converse to this idea is America love it or leave it or my country right or wrong. Which of course cuts both ways. All sorts of nations have tried that stunt, we are morally superior and are the master race. The example of Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2 spring to mind. As a nation we seem to be all too slowly learning that the rest of the larger world always rejects that kind of crapola. As it is, America is a deeply divided nation, we should not think that a GWB narrow win with only 50% electoral support represents any kind of national consensus. And even if we are nearly 100% off the deep end psychotic, that the rest of the world will go along with our quaint notions of moral superiority.
As it is, I think the rest of the world is waiting for GWB to depart. If we try to even start another four years of the same, their patiences will totally end. And instead of confronting us militarily, the world will attack our economy and cut off the loans and imports we are totally dependent on.
The converse to this idea is America love it or leave it or my country right or wrong. Which of course cuts both ways. All sorts of nations have tried that stunt, we are morally superior and are the master race. The example of Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2 spring to mind. As a nation we seem to be all too slowly learning that the rest of the larger world always rejects that kind of crapola. As it is, America is a deeply divided nation, we should not think that a GWB narrow win with only 50% electoral support represents any kind of national consensus. And even if we are nearly 100% off the deep end psychotic, that the rest of the world will go along with our quaint notions of moral superiority.
As it is, I think the rest of the world is waiting for GWB to depart. If we try to even start another four years of the same, their patiences will totally end. And instead of confronting us militarily, the world will attack our economy and cut off the loans and imports we are totally dependent on.
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