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McCain whips out old Rovian tactic...

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
37
91
I guess McSame really is appropriate for John McCain. To actullly criticize Obama because he suggested using our existing judicial system to bring terrorists to justice. Well, I guess it's just better to nuke them all.

Anyway, I hope Americans don't buy this fear bullshit. We've faced down tougher problems in the past with intelligence and patience. International terrorism can be overcome with similar weapons.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2...er-910-mentality-slam/

Obama Fires Back at McCain Over ?9/10 Mentality? Slam

WASHINGTON ? A defiant Barack Obama said Tuesday he would take no lectures from Republicans on which candidate would keep the U.S. safer, a sharp rebuke to John McCain?s aides who said the Democrat had a naive, Sept. 10 mind-set toward terrorism.

?These are the same guys who helped to engineer the distraction of the war in Iraq at a time when we could have pinned down the people who actually committed 9/11,? the presumed nominee told reporters aboard his campaign plane. ?This is the same kind of fear-mongering that got us into Iraq ? and it?s exactly that failed foreign policy I want to reverse.?

The debate between the rival camps echoed the 2004 presidential campaign in which President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and other Republicans argued that Democratic nominee John Kerry was soft on terror, a claim that resonated with voters and helped propel Bush to re-election. Democrats complained that the GOP was using the politics of fear.

The Republican argument proved less effective in 2006 when then Bush adviser Karl Rove said the Democrats had a pre-Sept. 11 view of the world and Republicans had a post-Sept. 11 terror attacks perspective. In November of that year, Democrats captured enough congressional seats to seize control of the House and Senate.

On his campaign plane, Obama told reporters that Osama bin Laden is still at large in part because Bush?s strategy toward fighting terror has not succeeded.

At issue were comments Obama made in an interview with ABC News Monday in which he spoke approvingly of the successful prosecution and imprisonment of those responsible for the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Obama was asked how he could be sure the Bush administration?s anti-terrorism policies are not crucial to protecting U.S. citizens.

Obama said the government can crack down on terrorists ?within the constraints of our Constitution.? He mentioned the indefinite detention of Guantanamo Bay detainees, contrasting their treatment with the prosecution of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings.

?And, you know, let?s take the example of Guantanamo,? Obama said. ?What we know is that, in previous terrorist attacks ? for example, the first attack against the World Trade Center ? we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial. They are currently in U.S. prisons, incapacitated.

?And the fact that the administration has not tried to do that has created a situation where not only have we never actually put many of these folks on trial, but we have destroyed our credibility when it comes to rule of law all around the world, and given a huge boost to terrorist recruitment in countries that say, ?Look, this is how the United States treats Muslims. ?

?We could have done the exact same thing, but done it in a way that was consistent with our laws,? Obama said.

Obama agreed with the Supreme Court ruling last week that detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have a constitutional right to challenge their indefinite imprisonment in U.S. civilian courts. McCain derided the ruling as ?one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.?

McCain aides criticized Obama for talking about using the criminal justice system to prosecute terrorists.

?Senator Obama is a perfect manifestation a September 10th mind-set ? He does not understand the nature of the enemies we face,? McCain national security director Randy Scheunemann told reporters on a conference call.

Former CIA Director James Woolsey, who is advising the McCain campaign, concurred, saying Obama has ?an extremely dangerous and extremely naive approach toward terrorism ? and toward dealing with prisoners captured overseas who have been engaged in terrorist attacks against the United States.?

The Obama campaign countered with its own conference call in which Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., and Richard Clarke, a counterterrorism official in Republican and Democratic administrations, argued the McCain campaign was emulating Rove.

?I?m a little disgusted by the attempts of some of my friends on the McCain campaign to use the same old, tired tactics ? to drive a wedge between Americans for partisan advantage and to frankly frighten Americans,? Clarke said.

Kerry accused McCain of ?defending a policy that is indefensible? by siding with Bush?s policies, particularly with respect to the Iraq war.

Obama said Republicans could be counted on to do ?what they?ve done every election cycle, which is to use terrorism as club to make the American people afraid to win elections.? He said he didn?t think it would work this time.

Republicans criticized Obama last year when he said the United States should act on intelligence about top terrorist targets in Pakistan even if President Pervez Musharraf refuses.

 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
37
91
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,116
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
37
91
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
Apologies all around for missing that "if". That said, we've always had our FBI go out to investigate acts of terror, all around the world. When we found these assholes, they were brought back here and tried. It has worked in the past and worked well.

I'm willing to bet anybody on this board that if bin Laden was found, we'd try him in New York City, not Gitmo.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
I agree that they aren't as good at it as you are:thumbsup:

 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
15,441
3,003
126

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
[/quote]


He mis-read and apologized.

Stop being such a putz.

:roll:
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
He mis-read and apologized.

Stop being such a putz.

:roll:
:thumbsup:

This is a good article with potential for good conversation. Let's try to keep it that way. With that said, I am happy to see that Obama is fighting directly against the idea of fear-mongering. I'm tired of that crap.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Hate to tell you this, but those saboteurs did have rights, since they were tried by a judge .

Wiki link

Bush has decided that "terrorists" that are captured have no rights and should not have a trial, until the Supreme court forced it on him. I also didn't see us torture Germans during/after WWII as well, which we are doing today.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Agreed to a certain extent, but this is different. I have concerns over many things we are doing, but still beleive there is a fundamental difference.

The FBI charter really does not extend outside US borderrs/territories. The FBI can be called but only at the request of the host country. Their hands are often tied by the host government such as the Khobar Towers bombing.

And I want to remphasize anyone deserves justice, but for terrorists it needs to be swift and final.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
He mis-read and apologized.

Stop being such a putz.

:roll:
:roll: He hadn't posted that when I was responding.

Stop being such a putz.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
In terms of the tried and if found guilty, there in lies the other rub. We do have this big collection of people we are putting into iron cages and treating badly, but in terms of having much specific evidence against most of them, we have suspicion, circumstantial evidence, and little else. And in any real court of law and even our fairly staffed military tribunals, that kind of very poor evidence will result in an acquittal. And GWB&co and John McCain know that which why they don't want to put them on trial until they figure out how to get a guilty verdict every time they play eni meani mini mo.

As for immediately, what part of past seven years for some of them is not immediate. After all, we are talking patient John McCain here, in it for a 100 years.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
37
91
Originally posted by: dphantom
Agreed to a certain extent, but this is different. I have concerns over many things we are doing, but still beleive there is a fundamental difference.

The FBI charter really does not extend outside US borderrs/territories. The FBI can be called but only at the request of the host country. Their hands are often tied by the host government such as the Khobar Towers bombing.

And I want to remphasize anyone deserves justice, but for terrorists it needs to be swift and final.
So you rather our military invite itself into any country so long as there are anti-American terrrorist suspects there?
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Agreed to a certain extent, but this is different. I have concerns over many things we are doing, but still beleive there is a fundamental difference.

The FBI charter really does not extend outside US borderrs/territories. The FBI can be called but only at the request of the host country. Their hands are often tied by the host government such as the Khobar Towers bombing.

And I want to remphasize anyone deserves justice, but for terrorists it needs to be swift and final.
So you rather our military invite itself into any country so long as there are anti-American terrrorist suspects there?
No, I did not say that at all.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
15,441
3,003
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
He mis-read and apologized.

Stop being such a putz.

:roll:
:roll: He hadn't posted that when I was responding.



Not according to the time stamp.


Nor does it excuse your total putziness.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Tried and found guilty? This isn't a Stalinist state or a banana republic, genius.

He said "immediately tried AND IF found guilty"
But they couldn't feign outrage if you put the "if" back in there...
He mis-read and apologized.

Stop being such a putz.

:roll:
:roll: He hadn't posted that when I was responding.
Not according to the time stamp.


Nor does it excuse your total putziness.
8:01 - his post
8:02 - my post

Shinerburke's post was the last post when I his the quote button.

BTW - Learn to use the quote feature
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,366
3,486
126
"As ye Judge, so shall ye be Judged"

Bush to Gitmo would be the Christian thing to do. I say we do it, just because.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,511
140
106
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: dphantom
Foreign terrorists are not US citizens and should not be afforded constitutional rights we have. Instead, when captured, they should be immediately tried and if found guilty executed for their crimes. That's what was done to the Nazis who tried to wage a guerilla campaign after the German surrender in WWII. They did not last long at all.
Hate to tell you this, but those saboteurs did have rights, since they were tried by a judge .

Wiki link

Bush has decided that "terrorists" that are captured have no rights and should not have a trial, until the Supreme court forced it on him. I also didn't see us torture Germans during/after WWII as well, which we are doing today.
Not comparable to today. Then, it was an act of sabotage during a declared war against economic targets carried out by German intelligence agents along with some US citizens. Under FDR's direction, they were tried by a military commission, found guilty and executed.

The defense attorneys tried to get the case tried in a civilian criminal court and were rebuffed the the Supreme Court in Ex parte Quirin.

Next time, I suggest you provide the entire context. This is pretty much what I beleive should be done. Holding prisoners for years and years should not be the practice since they are not POWs, but illegal enemy combatants and should be treated as such.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
18
81
I like how Obama is called "naive" for endorsing a decision of 5 Supreme Court justices haha. Those foolish children on SCOTUS, when will they learn?
 

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