McCain is "technically" correct: Obama Will Raise Your Taxes, He Will Lower Them...

[bozack]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
So you're saying you should get even more in terms of benefits for living in an area with high property values? Why? Should I go move up to La Jolla and get some extra tax breaks to compensate me for the burden of living in a very wealthy area?

I can't fathom a more fair way to determine who is rich or not than by income. If you are being so put upon by making 'only' 100k a year in Boston, by all means move to East Texas and make $30,000 instead.

When (if) you buy a car on your $100k salary, it consumes approximately 20% of your earnings for a year in debt. When someone in East Texas buys that car it consumes 66% of their income. Still think you're both middle class?

No, I am saying any of these classes are "relative", and tying them to simply a monetary amount might not paint an accurate picture...

Like you said, 100K in MA is middle class whereas 30K somewhere else is as well...cost of living, job opportunities and many other factors come into play.

Sure a car might eat into less of my yearly budget, but housing costs, commuting costs, state and local taxes are alot higher for certain areas which balances it out...yet because we have a combined income that ranks high on the scale we are taxed heavier.

And again, if I am thinking of myself I stand to do better, even though it is slightly, under the McCain plan than I do with the Obama solution.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Better take that with a grain of salt, McCain is just talking to those making $five-million and up.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: mshan
I guess that statement is "technically" correct, if you make at least $603,403 to 2.87 million dollars a year (for everyone else, it's just a matter of the degree of the [/u] tax cut[/u] you will receive):

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/details.html

I don't know how the site can conclude that only people making $600k and above will get more tax under Obama.

According to this site Obama will:

1. Restore 36 and 39.6% statutory income tax rates, Restore PEP and Pease phaseouts for households making more than $250,000. (from current 33% and 35%)
2. Social Security/payroll taxes: impose additional tax of 2-4 percent (combined employer and employee) on workers with income above $200,000 ($250,000 for married couples)
3. Increase maximum capital gains rate to 20 percent (from current 15%)

That's quite a bit of tax increase for people making $250k and above, as well as people having capital gain from stock and others. While $250k is considered high income in most part of the country, it is actually quite common in areas like SF, LA, Boston and other places with high cost of living.

 

[extra]

Originally posted by: bozack
Going by that chart I am better off with McCain. I wonder if that chart considers households making $111 - 160K/ "upper class", personally I put that as pretty solid middle class.

That makes you upper class. Though i suppose it would not feel like it if you lived in an area with extremely high cost of living.

 

[mshan]

Your argument might hold more water if it wasn't just financed by borrowing more money from the Bank of China and letting your children worry about the bill...

And despite what Sarah Palin says, China is probably our most significant national security threat going forward, not Russia (even Donald Rumsfeld agreed with this as he tried to retool the military to be able to confront China going forward).

 

[extra]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: OrByte
Alan Greenspan says McCain's tax cut proposal is horrible for the US.

Anything bad for socialism and communism is good for America. Though I can understand where you and Greenspan feel differently.

K lets un-socialize the military and make it private then. You did say *anything*.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: extra

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: OrByte
Alan Greenspan says McCain's tax cut proposal is horrible for the US.

Anything bad for socialism and communism is good for America. Though I can understand where you and Greenspan feel differently.

K lets un-socialize the military and make it private then. You did say *anything*.

Lets privatize sidewalks too! I want 5 competing sidewalks on my street by noon tomorrow. People will literally vote with their feet!

 

[First]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
i think they asked obama and mccain what they consider rich - obama said $250k plus and mccain said 5 million plus

Sounds like McCain has a better understanding of this than Obama, as I have yet to meet anyone who would honestly find 250K "rich"

250K is, on average, rich for a family in the U.S. It may be the lower end of "rich" for a family income, especially if you live in a high priced area of NY or CA, but on average there's no question that figure is not middle class. I live in an expensive part of the country too (West Los Angeles), yet I know plenty of attorneys making no more than $125K-$150K individually who consider themselves very rich, and know an attorney couple making $125K each straight out of Berkley law school (one kid), and they without a doubt consider themselves rich despite living in one of the most expensive parts of L.A. To even pretend $5M is a more reasonable cut-off for being rich is so laughable as to not deserve a serious response. To say McCain has a better understanding as a result is even funnier considering the guy has literally admitted to not understanding economics.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: extra
That makes you upper class. Though i suppose it would not feel like it if you lived in an area with extremely high cost of living.

Extra, this kinda goes to what I am saying, because if my wife and I moved anywhere else we wouldn't be making this kind of money, but because we and others like us live where we do not only do we have higher costs of living, but also we are tagged as "upper class" by these BS statistics when in reality we are anything but.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
250K is, on average, rich for a family in the U.S. It may be the lower end of "rich" for a family income, especially if you live in a high priced area of NY or CA, but on average there's no question that figure is not middle class. I live in an expensive part of the country too (West Los Angeles), yet I know plenty of attorneys making no more than $125K-$150K individually who consider themselves very rich, and know an attorney couple making $125K each straight out of Berkley law school (one kid), and they without a doubt consider themselves rich despite living in one of the most expensive parts of L.A. To even pretend $5M is a more reasonable cut-off for being rich is so laughable as to not deserve a serious response. To say McCain has a better understanding as a result is even funnier considering the guy has literally admitted to not understanding economics.

Guess it is a matter of perspective Even, personally if I were making 125-150K/year individually I wouldn't consider myself rich, not by a long shot.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
250K is, on average, rich for a family in the U.S. It may be the lower end of "rich" for a family income, especially if you live in a high priced area of NY or CA, but on average there's no question that figure is not middle class. I live in an expensive part of the country too (West Los Angeles), yet I know plenty of attorneys making no more than $125K-$150K individually who consider themselves very rich, and know an attorney couple making $125K each straight out of Berkley law school (one kid), and they without a doubt consider themselves rich despite living in one of the most expensive parts of L.A. To even pretend $5M is a more reasonable cut-off for being rich is so laughable as to not deserve a serious response. To say McCain has a better understanding as a result is even funnier considering the guy has literally admitted to not understanding economics.

Guess it is a matter of perspective Even, personally if I were making 125-150K/year individually I wouldn't consider myself rich, not by a long shot.

While I get your perspective, what I'm telling you is that it doesn't square with objective reality. You make more money per year than 90% of the households in this country. It doesn't matter that your rent/mortgage is more. Durable goods cost the same for everyone, greater housing costs translates into more equity for you. You're rich. Accept it.

 

[mshan]

Perhaps what Bozack is really saying is (?):

- My salary hasn't gone up as much as I would like
- My Cost of Living has definitely increased
- I now feel poor because I no longer have the extra disposable income that a booming stock market used to provide (which, I might add, was turbocharged by a low cost global liquidity bubble that, as we are seeing now, was just not sustainable over time)

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: mshan
Perhaps what Bozack is really saying is?:

- My salary hasn't gone up as much as I would like it to have
- Cost of Living has definitely increased
- I no longer have the extra disposable income that a booming stock market previously provided (which, I might add, was turbocharged by a low cost global liquidity bubble that, as we are seeing now, was just not sustainable over time)

Well he has moved to a more affluent neighborhood (I believe they bought a TH), got high priced FIOS, a new car and he and his lovely new wife are probably looking to add to their family. Living in Cambridge MA so you don't have to rub elbows with us Working Class isn't cheap

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: mshan
"Business costs in Virginia are very low, particularly tax and energy costs, which are the seventh and ninth lowest in the country." http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/...z_kb_0815virginia.html

It's amazing what fiscal discipline can do for the long term health of a state...:

"He turned a $6 billion shortfall in the state budget into a billion-dollar surplus, a narrative he used to re-brand Virginia's Democratic Party as the party of fiscal discipline.

Mayors of rural towns applaud him for creating jobs. Teachers say their schools have more money. Governing Magazine cited his efforts in areas including procurement and technology consolidation as proof that Virginia is better managed than any other state.

More children have insurance. Graduation rates are higher. The state's sprawling and still underfunded Department of Transportation now finishes most projects on time and under budget."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...9/AR2006010901944.html

How?

Business costs in Virginia are very low, particularly tax and energy costs, which are the seventh and ninth lowest in the country. Overall, business costs in Virginia are 9% below the national average. The corporate income tax has remained unchanged at 6% for more than 30 years.

A spokeswoman for MeadWestvaco says that Richmond and Virginia appealed to the company because of its "pro-business environment and quality of life that was available to its employees." "There has been a real bipartisan tradition in Virginia of wanting to have a strong business climate. That political consensus has helped the legal and regulatory climate," says Kaine. The governor and the legislature strive to keep taxes and regulation "low, fair and business-friendly."



So why are Demcrats trying to do the opposite on the national level, again?

How lame. Virginians are keeping their own taxes low by sucking the rest of us dry- they get ~$1.50 back for every dollar they contribute to the federal govt... and are second only to Alaska in per capita federal spending...

Apply that magical money machine thinking to the whole country simultaneously- see how that works out for ya.

http://www.nemw.org/fundsrank.htm

 

[mshan]

Your point is interesting, and definitely warrants more research!!! :thumbsup:

But how seriously can we take anything put out by any Washington think tank? (I mean, who really pays their bills?)

edit: can you provide any better links where I can further research the point you are trying to make?

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy
We've had this discussion many times. Household income of $111k makes you in about the top 10% of income earners for the United States, and income of $150,000 puts you in or around the top 3% of the country.

Do you consider the 90th and the 97th percentile 'in the middle'?

People generally view themselves and their surroundings as being "the middle class" no matter how much or how little money they make. For some reason while almost everyone aspires to be rich in this country, people are reluctant to admit it to themselves when they are.

Eskimo, I have also had this discussion with many and the concensus is that, in the great liberal bastion of a state Massachusetts, anything lower than a household family income of $220K is solidly middle class.

Which proves his point, "People generally view themselves and their surroundings as being "the middle class" no matter how much or how little money they make."

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: mshan
"Business costs in Virginia are very low, particularly tax and energy costs, which are the seventh and ninth lowest in the country." http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/...z_kb_0815virginia.html

It's amazing what fiscal discipline can do for the long term health of a state...:

"He turned a $6 billion shortfall in the state budget into a billion-dollar surplus, a narrative he used to re-brand Virginia's Democratic Party as the party of fiscal discipline.

Mayors of rural towns applaud him for creating jobs. Teachers say their schools have more money. Governing Magazine cited his efforts in areas including procurement and technology consolidation as proof that Virginia is better managed than any other state.

More children have insurance. Graduation rates are higher. The state's sprawling and still underfunded Department of Transportation now finishes most projects on time and under budget."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...9/AR2006010901944.html

How?

Business costs in Virginia are very low, particularly tax and energy costs, which are the seventh and ninth lowest in the country. Overall, business costs in Virginia are 9% below the national average. The corporate income tax has remained unchanged at 6% for more than 30 years.

A spokeswoman for MeadWestvaco says that Richmond and Virginia appealed to the company because of its "pro-business environment and quality of life that was available to its employees." "There has been a real bipartisan tradition in Virginia of wanting to have a strong business climate. That political consensus has helped the legal and regulatory climate," says Kaine. The governor and the legislature strive to keep taxes and regulation "low, fair and business-friendly."



So why are Demcrats trying to do the opposite on the national level, again?

How lame. Virginians are keeping their own taxes low by sucking the rest of us dry- they get ~$1.50 back for every dollar they contribute to the federal govt... and are second only to Alaska in per capita federal spending...

Apply that magical money machine thinking to the whole country simultaneously- see how that works out for ya.

http://www.nemw.org/fundsrank.htm

Gee, that couldnt have anything to do with the fact that the Pentagon is in Virginia, could it?

I don't think Mark Warner and Kaine were taxing the military....

 

[mshan]

You've really got to wonder if the RNC's narrative for the 2012 presidential election is going to be:

"John McCain was a maverick who raised your taxes, we couldn't control him, but this time we will run a true fiscal conservative who will be responsive to the Republican base."

(what sort of accountability is there when he just gets to play commander-in-chief for four years, retire completely from politics, and then continue to enjoy the billion dollar inheritance his wife Cindy provides?)

 

[mshan]

delete (link pasted to wrong thread)

 

[First]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: eskimospy
We've had this discussion many times. Household income of $111k makes you in about the top 10% of income earners for the United States, and income of $150,000 puts you in or around the top 3% of the country.

Do you consider the 90th and the 97th percentile 'in the middle'?

People generally view themselves and their surroundings as being "the middle class" no matter how much or how little money they make. For some reason while almost everyone aspires to be rich in this country, people are reluctant to admit it to themselves when they are.

Eskimo, I have also had this discussion with many and the concensus is that, in the great liberal bastion of a state Massachusetts, anything lower than a household family income of $220K is solidly middle class.

The average house price in MA is roughly $300K. A nice home is $700K. If you can't own a home and have 2 kids pulling in 220K annually, and not be able to live extremely comfortably, you suck terribly at finance or have zero life savings/massive debt.