McCain Caught Telling Two Lies In One Sentence Friday

jpeyton

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Lying in their speeches about Obama's record was par for the course at the RNC, but McCain continued his assault on truth-telling with this feel good talking-points story that has become the center piece of Palin's so-called attack on wasteful spending. Did anyone catch the even bigger lie about Palin: Alaska has 10 times the national per capita average for earmark spending, and Wasilla has TWENTY times the national average.

The LIE: "You know what I enjoyed the most? She took the luxury jet that was acquired by her predecessor, and sold it on eBay -- and made a profit!" - John McCain, Cedarburg, WI 9/05/08

The TRUTH: She never sold the plane on eBay; it was sold to a campaign contributor. She never sold it for a profit; it cost the state $2.7 million and she sold it for $2.1 million.

Text

Governor's Plane Wasn't Sold on Ebay

One of the most compelling anecdotes in Sarah Palin's repertoire is that she auctioned off the Alaska governor's jet on eBay after taking office -- a swift move made by a reformer hoping to clean up the excesses of her predecessor.

In fact, the jet did not sell on eBay. It was sold to a businessman from Valdez named Larry Reynolds, who paid $2.1 million for the plane -- shy of the $2.7 million purchase price -- according to news reports at the time. Reynolds contributed to Palin's campaign in 2006.

What happened? It appears that, as she promised during her bid for governor, Palin did try to sell the plane on eBay, but there was only one serious bid, in December of 2006, and it fell through. The Westwind II was sold about eight months later, achieving her goal of ridding the state of a luxury item.

But that hasn't stopped Palin, or John McCain, from implying -- or asserting outright -- that Palin sold the jet on the Internet.

"You know what I enjoyed the most? She took the luxury jet that was acquired by her predecessor, and sold it on eBay -- and made a profit!" McCain declared in Wisconsin at a campaign stop Friday.

The video tribute to Palin that aired at the Republican National Convention on Thursday night made the same assertion.

"She signed sweeping ethics reform legislation, auctioned the governor's jet on eBay," the narrator said, citing it in a list of Palin's achievements.

Palin herself, in her convention speech accepting the nomination for vice president, gave a version closer to the truth but still left the impression the jet was sold in a public transaction. "That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay," Palin said.

"Governor Palin did put the plane on eBay, and she sold it to save the taxpayers money and get rid of that symbol of past corruption. Ultimately, the point is that taxpayers have been well-served by Governor Palin's willingness to fight wasteful spending and root out corruption -- no matter what nit-picking critics might say," Tucker Bounds, McCain's spokesman, said Friday.

It remains unclear just who brokered the sale of the jet. According to a contemporaneous account in the New York Times, Dan Spencer, director of administrative services for Alaska's Public Safety Department, said it was the Republican speaker of the Alaska House, John L. Harris. Other local accounts suggested that an aviation brokerage firm took the lead.

About one-third of Alaskans live in towns and communities with no access to roads, making a plane for the governor's use a key asset. However, many Alaskans resented former governor Frank Murkowski's purchase of the jet, which was largely unusable on many of the state's rural landing strips, some of which have gravel runways.

When Palin sold the jet, that left her with access to a 26-year-old turboprop aircraft that was due for an overhaul. Public Safety Commissioner Walter Monegan said he ordered the airplane rehabilitated and offered to buy or lease a new plane in the interim. Ultimately, the governor waited until the older plane was overhauled.

-- Anne E. Kornblut, James V. Grimaldi and Alice Crites

'ABSOLUTELY NO DISCUSSION'

Palin on 'Oprah'? Not During the Campaign

Is the McCain campaign playing politics -- with Oprah Winfrey?

A Drudge report item surfaced on Friday about Winfrey's programming plans, saying members of her staff are divided over having Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice presidential nominee, as a guest.

The rumor seemed designed to force Winfrey's hand and call her out as a partisan. Winfrey -- whose largely female audience is a prime target for both parties -- took heat during the Democratic primary season for backing Sen. Barack Obama over Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Winfrey swiftly knocked the report down, calling it "categorically untrue."

"There has been absolutely no discussion about having Sarah Palin on my show," she said in a statement. "At the beginning of this presidential campaign, when I decided that I was going to take my first public stance in support of a candidate, I made the

decision not to use my show as a platform for any of the

candidates. I agree that Sarah Palin would be a fantastic interview, and I would love to have her on after the campaign is over."
 

jpeyton

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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Didn't we already have a thread about the plane story??
If we did, what was your reply to the topic in that thread?
 

BudAshes

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The only thing that matters is that republicans are run by the religious right. Voting the religious right into power is as good as voting al qaeda into office.
 

ProfJohn

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The Palin kept her promise to sell the plane and that you are splitting hairs with this topic.

It has come down to this:
Lie: sold it on eBay -- and made a profit!
Truth: sold the plane for small loss.

McCain should have stuck to the 'put it on e-bay' line that was the truth. I'm gong to have to dig through every Obama speech looking for anything he said that was false.
How about a thread titled: Obama lied about how many states he visited!!!!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
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While selling the jet was, imho, a good thing, what it amounts to is cutting Alaska's losses. fine by me, and the citizens of that State, I'm sure.

Claiming loss as profit is really nothing new for repubs, anyway- hell, the whole apparatus of trickle down economics rests on the illusion provided by deficit spending and exxplosive debt.

Yep, to hear them tell it, we can keep cutting taxes and just borrow our way out of debt...
 

jpeyton

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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How about a thread titled: Obama lied about how many states he visited!!!!
Did the DNC make a video that exclaimed him visiting 57 states? Because the RNC told the same lie in Palin's biographic video as well.

McCain likes to lie all the time to make a feel-good statement. Remember how he said Iraq was so safe that Petraus was driving around in an "unarmored Humvee", when in fact he never once did?

McCain has major issues with telling the truth. We all know he tells big lies, but it's really pathetic when he has to tell small ones just to hold-up his vapor-thin campaign narratives.
 

CallMeJoe

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"Sold it on eBay" vs. "Listed it on eBay, didn't meet reserve and sold it elsewhere" is a hairsplit worthy of "defining is". I'd let go of that one; it only plays to the choir.
 

Capt Caveman

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How do you know he was lying? Did he know the truth beforehand? Have proof? Or just relaying what he's been told?

Or are you just lying that he's lying?
 

Dari

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Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
How do you know he was lying? Did he know the truth beforehand? Have proof? Or just relaying what he's been told?

Or are you just lying that he's lying?
Senility? Unfit to lead.
 

jpeyton

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Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
"Sold it on eBay" vs. "Listed it on eBay, didn't meet reserve and sold it elsewhere" is a hairsplit worthy of "defining is". I'd let go of that one; it only plays to the choir.
What's your opinion on the fact that she brought 20 times the national average in earmarks per capita to Wasilla, and 10 times the national average to the entire state of Alaska?
 

Jhhnn

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Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
How do you know he was lying? Did he know the truth beforehand? Have proof? Or just relaying what he's been told?

Or are you just lying that he's lying?

Oh, please. McCain has speechwriters and factcheckers for a reason- so that even when he's talking about things he doesn't understand he's not spreading falsehoods...

McCain hired the people who run his campaign and is responsible for their efforts on his behalf most particularly when it's words coming out of his own mouth. It's one of those "personal responsibility" things, ya know?

I'll grant any public speaker the occasional slip of the tongue, but this ain't it, at all...
 

CallMeJoe

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Originally posted by: jpeyton
What's your opinion on the fact that she brought 20 times the national average in earmarks per capita to Wasilla, and 10 times the national average to the entire state of Alaska?
Different issue. You should try to nail her hypocritical hide to the wall on that. Senator McCain sacrificed his "experience" and his "earmarks" issues when he selected his VP candidate.
 

Capt Caveman

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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
How do you know he was lying? Did he know the truth beforehand? Have proof? Or just relaying what he's been told?

Or are you just lying that he's lying?

Oh, please. McCain has speechwriters and factcheckers for a reason- so that even when he's talking about things he doesn't understand he's not spreading falsehoods...

McCain hired the people who run his campaign and is responsible for their efforts on his behalf most particularly when it's words coming out of his own mouth. It's one of those "personal responsibility" things, ya know?

I'll grant any public speaker the occasional slip of the tongue, but this ain't it, at all...
Oh, please. How come you're not calling out Obama for being a liar? Rev. Wright is considered family to Obama and is his spiritual leader. He denies ever hearing Rev. Wright make hate mongering comments about the gov't. Yet, Oprah left his church b/c of it and Rolling Stone two years ago in an article about Obama talked about this church of hate.

I guess Obama didn't check with his speechwriters or factcheckers either.
 

ProfJohn

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Jul 28, 2006
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Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: jpeyton
What's your opinion on the fact that she brought 20 times the national average in earmarks per capita to Wasilla, and 10 times the national average to the entire state of Alaska?
Different issue. You should try to nail her hypocritical hide to the wall on that. Senator McCain sacrificed his "experience" and his "earmarks" issues when he selected his VP candidate.
And Obama sacrificed his "change" issue when he selected his VP candidate.

Which leaves Obama with nothing else to run on.
 

Perknose

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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Didn't we already have a thread about the plane story??
LOL, I have to agree. The lie here is trivial, and I can see McCain extemporaneously adding, "and sold it for a profit" on his own, or even the damn whole thing.

I know he has a raft of advisors now, but I doubt he let's them personally "school" him all that much. That's what makes him so much fun, he's a crusty old curmudgeon who can't be controlled, so, yeah, Five million dollars is the cutoff, he'll answer.

In his mind, I'm sure it was all true.

But as for it being two monumental and highly consequential LIES, well . . . I can't go with that. More like "stupidly loose with the facts and got caught."

You know, I wish the Presidential debates weren't the highly scripted kabuki theater they've evolved into. No matter, you can bank on this: McCain will go off the reservation and say exactly whatever's truly in his heart and on his mind at least twice during this year's.

Not, THAT'S entertainment! :laugh:

 

Jhhnn

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Nov 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
How do you know he was lying? Did he know the truth beforehand? Have proof? Or just relaying what he's been told?

Or are you just lying that he's lying?

Oh, please. McCain has speechwriters and factcheckers for a reason- so that even when he's talking about things he doesn't understand he's not spreading falsehoods...

McCain hired the people who run his campaign and is responsible for their efforts on his behalf most particularly when it's words coming out of his own mouth. It's one of those "personal responsibility" things, ya know?

I'll grant any public speaker the occasional slip of the tongue, but this ain't it, at all...
Oh, please. How come you're not calling out Obama for being a liar? Rev. Wright is considered family to Obama and is his spiritual leader. He denies ever hearing Rev. Wright make hate mongering comments about the gov't. Yet, Oprah left his church b/c of it and Rolling Stone two years ago in an article about Obama talked about this church of hate.

I guess Obama didn't check with his speechwriters or factcheckers either.

You reference matters of spin and opinion wrt Obama- the issues wrt Palin's sale of the Alaska jet are easily verifiable matters of fact...

If you can't acknowledge the difference, then society has clearly wasted a lot of money attempting to educate you.
 

AeroEngy

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Originally posted by: jpeyton
The TRUTH: She never sold the plane on eBay; it was sold to a campaign contributor. She never sold it for a profit; it cost the state $2.7 million and she sold it for $2.1 million.
[/quote]

Well it really isn't that simple if you want to get into the details of loss / profit on aircraft.

The plane was a 1984 Westwind II bought in 2005 for 2.7 million. It was sold about 3 years later for 2.1 million. Most would look at that as a 600k loss however that would be incorrect.

It really depends on the depreciation and how much it was flown. Also, If the plane is close to one of its mandatory FAA inspections (based on flight time) then the price can drop a lot.

What I am basically trying to say is that more info would be needed to estimate what the plane was "worth" at the time of sale. Also, it is difficult to judge on a luxury item like that because it is only worth what someone else is willing to pay.

 

jpeyton

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Originally posted by: AeroEngy
Well it really isn't that simple if you want to get into the details of loss / profit on aircraft.
I didn't say she sold it at $xxx loss; what I said is that she never "sold it for a profit", which is the stump speech lie.

profit: the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
 

QED

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Dec 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: AeroEngy
Originally posted by: jpeyton
The TRUTH: She never sold the plane on eBay; it was sold to a campaign contributor. She never sold it for a profit; it cost the state $2.7 million and she sold it for $2.1 million.
Well it really isn't that simple if you want to get into the details of loss / profit on aircraft.

The plane was a 1984 Westwind II bought in 2005 for 2.7 million. It was sold about 3 years later for 2.1 million. Most would look at that as a 600k loss however that would be incorrect.

It really depends on the depreciation and how much it was flown. Also, If the plane is close to one of its mandatory FAA inspections (based on flight time) then the price can drop a lot.

What I am basically trying to say is that more info would be needed to estimate what the plane was "worth" at the time of sale. Also, it is difficult to judge on a luxury item like that because it is only worth what someone else is willing to pay.
IIRC, someone during PBS's coverage of the RNC convention did mention that it was sold for less that was it was originally purchased for-- but that it was slightly more than what was still owed on it by the state. I wonder if it's in that sense that McCain thinks the sale "made a profit"? Not that I necessarily agree with that method of accounting...



 

AeroEngy

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Mar 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: AeroEngy
Well it really isn't that simple if you want to get into the details of loss / profit on aircraft.
I didn't say she sold it at $xxx loss; what I said is that she never "sold it for a profit", which is the stump speech lie.

profit: the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
I would consider it a profit if you sold it for more than the original cost less depreciation.

Example (I made up the depreciation numbers).
If the plane cost 2.7 Mill, it depreciated 700k due to use, and you sold it for 2.1 Mill. Then IMO you made 100 k.

Similarly if you buy a car for 40K drive it for 10 years and can pawn it off on some poor sap for 30k. Due you really think you lost money?

I found a 1983 Westwind II for sale for 1.9 Mill, a 1982 Model for 1.65 , and a 1981 for 1.45 Mill. So I think she got a pretty good price.
 

DuffmanOhYeah

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May 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: QED
Originally posted by: AeroEngy
Originally posted by: jpeyton
The TRUTH: She never sold the plane on eBay; it was sold to a campaign contributor. She never sold it for a profit; it cost the state $2.7 million and she sold it for $2.1 million.
Well it really isn't that simple if you want to get into the details of loss / profit on aircraft.

The plane was a 1984 Westwind II bought in 2005 for 2.7 million. It was sold about 3 years later for 2.1 million. Most would look at that as a 600k loss however that would be incorrect.

It really depends on the depreciation and how much it was flown. Also, If the plane is close to one of its mandatory FAA inspections (based on flight time) then the price can drop a lot.

What I am basically trying to say is that more info would be needed to estimate what the plane was "worth" at the time of sale. Also, it is difficult to judge on a luxury item like that because it is only worth what someone else is willing to pay.
IIRC, someone during PBS's coverage of the RNC convention did mention that it was sold for less that was it was originally purchased for-- but that it was slightly more than what was still owed on it by the state. I wonder if it's in that sense that McCain thinks the sale "made a profit"? Not that I necessarily agree with that method of accounting...

I concur with many of the above about the nit-picky status of this whole item, but as to the profit question, I can very well believe that it was sold for a "profit." That said, I'd need more details.

Depending on the states financing structure of the plane (which I admit I dont know) it is very conceivable that selling it for 2.1 million was greater than the cost remaining on its books. This is particularly true when considering a financed structure over time. The net present value of cost remaining should be likely be discounted by the state bond rate. Thus, even if the state owed 2.1 mil over a period of time and sold it for 2.1, the 2.1 sale can rightly be considered as selling it for a profit.
 

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