McCain calls for 45 new Nuclear Reactors

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KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
M: Yes he was the one who wrote the article. I linked it to provide evidence for the area needed to power the nation, which is mentioned on a lot of sites, not for the opinion of the author regarding his non-professional opinion of its feasibility. The opinion you mentioned does not appear in my Opera browser and is covered with other information in IE7 on my system so I can only read a few of the words of his you linked. The page layout seems to have problems. The actual information is from Ausra, I think. Another link[

KK: So why do you ppst articles if you're just going to discredit them when they don't agree with you?

M: This will be the third time I tell you. I wanted a short summary of the 92 miles to power the country because you don't read. I was not posting anything to do with HVDC or anything related. You dug that red herring up and I then refuted that too. But the bottom line is that you are too dumb really to understand what I was doing.

When did you refute the HVDC point I made? So what you are saying is that you're crediting the author on the point that agree with you?

M: If you want to have some fun read the comments by other pin heads on his article. You will find a bunch of other wise geeks who are actual idiots posting there too. "AC is better than DC and on and on." Quite comical.

KK. I see that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a pinhead.

M: No the comedy was that these pinheads were refuted right in that thread by people who knew what they were talking about and proved it.

Really? But you have no knowledge of their qualifications. How is it that you hold them to a different standard than the author. You have a double standard for credibility.

M: This is why I keep calling you a pin head. You are myopic in your view. You glom onto some idiot's opinion as if he knew something and fail to apply a broad and wide perspective.

KK: You originally posted the article. Remember?

M: Yes and remember you are too stupid to see why.

I see why you posted it; it had a few lines that support what you are saying. But the rest you ignored. Either the author is credible or not. You have to pick which is it. This doesn't work both ways.

M: I have told you I posted that piece to refute the notion that solar can't deliver enough power, not to say we can only build there. Then you create an issue about delivering power. I then show you that such power can and will be delivered if it is created and you get mired down is some one person's opinion failing even to check on his qualifications to hold that opinion, and so on. You are a huge pain in the butt because you refuse to stand back and think. All you do is try to throw cold water on a clean and hopeful future because you have the nuclear bug. Get over it. Deal with Abe Lincoln. What the people want can happen and what they don't won't. The soul of man is pro renewable and against the invisible death.

KK Like I said it was YOU who posted that article. "Deliver" is the key word. The sun has plenty of power but the issue is how to deliver it. I already pointed out why HVDC won't happen for the entire nation. You never refuted this.

M: Refute what, your stupid opinion? Where are your links proving your case?

I can use Google to cherry pick all the links I need to support my point of view, which is what you have done. But why would I waste time to cite what is common sense (i.e concentrating power in a single region is not redundant)? Better yet, why would I drag this nonsense on with someone who has an obvious bias? Anyone can do what you do - cherry picking is easy. But not everyone can take information, analyze it, and develop their own conclusion.

Aside from cherry picking, you have a nice talent for strawman arguments. All of the sudden what I've said is no longer credible because I didn't provide any sources. Nice work avoiding my points.


M: The point I was making was not that we can only have solar in one place but that just in one single place is way way way way more energy than we need. .03% of the Sahara can power all of Europe.

KK: Nice point. The point I'm making is that the infrastructure needed to deliver that energy will never come into existence. Have a nice day. Pay attention next time.

M: See what I mean? Where are your links. There is nothing to pay attention to but your hot air.

Once again, I explained why that infrastructure won't come into existence. My explanation is based on logic. I wrote the explanation which is why I didn't cite anything. Instead of arguing against it you try to discredit it. Because you had a hard time discrediting what other people and I have pointed out from the beginning, you resorted to cherry picking articles and basically saying: "look, I can Google all these people that agree with me". Anyone can do that. Thats why I don't even bother. Imagine if people in the "Politics & News" forum would say to each other: "you opinion means nothing because you don't have a political science degree or the citation of someone who does". There would be no forum.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
M: Yes he was the one who wrote the article. I linked it to provide evidence for the area needed to power the nation, which is mentioned on a lot of sites, not for the opinion of the author regarding his non-professional opinion of its feasibility. The opinion you mentioned does not appear in my Opera browser and is covered with other information in IE7 on my system so I can only read a few of the words of his you linked. The page layout seems to have problems. The actual information is from Ausra, I think. Another link[

KK: So why do you ppst articles if you're just going to discredit them when they don't agree with you?

M: This will be the third time I tell you. I wanted a short summary of the 92 miles to power the country because you don't read. I was not posting anything to do with HVDC or anything related. You dug that red herring up and I then refuted that too. But the bottom line is that you are too dumb really to understand what I was doing.

KK: When did you refute the HVDC point I made? So what you are saying is that you're crediting the author on the point that agree with you?

M: You are totally illogical as a thinker so you wouldn't know you have been refuted when you were. The fact that HVDC is being built, has been built, and will be built whenever there is a need for it disproves the notion it won't be built. It is and has been built and therefore will be when there is power available to deliver long distances. It is happening for wind and it will happen for solar. It is happening here and around the world. On your side of the argument you have nothing but what you refer to as a logical opinion. The actual facts show your opinion to be a foolish one. And if you could reason at all you would understand that I didn't quote an author that agreed with me. I quoted a site that pointed out that 92 miles sq is what we need to solar power the nation. That same point is all over the web at numerous sites and which one I picked was random.

============
M: If you want to have some fun read the comments by other pin heads on his article. You will find a bunch of other wise geeks who are actual idiots posting there too. "AC is better than DC and on and on." Quite comical.

KK. I see that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a pinhead.

M: No the comedy was that these pinheads were refuted right in that thread by people who knew what they were talking about and proved it.

KK: Really? But you have no knowledge of their qualifications. How is it that you hold them to a different standard than the author. You have a double standard for credibility.

M: Because their data conforms to other data collected from other sites and facts on the ground. The WIKI article shows that HVDC is superior to AC for the relevant purposes unlike a number of silly people said, and HVDC is already being used in California and other places. A few hours of study shows that most of the comments placed at the site were done by people badly misinformed. Doubtlessly you don't see that as you are one of the later.

============
M: This is why I keep calling you a pin head. You are myopic in your view. You glom onto some idiot's opinion as if he knew something and fail to apply a broad and wide perspective.

KK: You originally posted the article. Remember?

M: Yes and remember you are too stupid to see why.

KK: I see why you posted it; it had a few lines that support what you are saying. But the rest you ignored. Either the author is credible or not. You have to pick which is it. This doesn't work both ways.

M: Hehe, no use saying it for time number 4 but I will anyway. There were no lines that supported or didn't support what I said. There were lines, from a completely different place that were quoted that gave the area needed for solar for the US. I don't agree or disagree with that. It is the data one gets when one searches for the area needed. I didn't have an opinion it was 92 miles and go out and find such data. I went looking for the area needed. It's just math. There is no picking what part of the author's comments are credible because he is quoting the 92 miles from elsewhere and added the naive notion it couldn't be done. The author was credible enough to quote the right number and no more. I provided proof of that by linking the original.
==============

M: I have told you I posted that piece to refute the notion that solar can't deliver enough power, not to say we can only build there. Then you create an issue about delivering power. I then show you that such power can and will be delivered if it is created and you get mired down is some one person's opinion failing even to check on his qualifications to hold that opinion, and so on. You are a huge pain in the butt because you refuse to stand back and think. All you do is try to throw cold water on a clean and hopeful future because you have the nuclear bug. Get over it. Deal with Abe Lincoln. What the people want can happen and what they don't won't. The soul of man is pro renewable and against the invisible death.

KK Like I said it was YOU who posted that article. "Deliver" is the key word. The sun has plenty of power but the issue is how to deliver it. I already pointed out why HVDC won't happen for the entire nation. You never refuted this.

M: Refute what, your stupid opinion? Where are your links proving your case?[/quote]

KK: I can use Google to cherry pick all the links I need to support my point of view, which is what you have done. But why would I waste time to cite what is common sense (i.e concentrating power in a single region is not redundant)? Better yet, why would I drag this nonsense on with someone who has an obvious bias? Anyone can do what you do - cherry picking is easy. But not everyone can take information, analyze it, and develop their own conclusion.

M: You can't even state your point of view in words that make any sense much less argue its accuracy. "(i.e concentrating power in a single region is not redundant)?" WTF does that mean. Are you fearful of being clear because you are afraid to expose your case to debate? And believe me you have no common sense. You say the sky is green and I say it's blue and post pictures which you call cherry picking the evidence and then you have the gall to call what you do thinking for yourself. Hehe. All you hope to do is bury me if verbiage and that ain't gonna work. I'm quite resigned to expose your silliness for what it is.


Aside from cherry picking, you have a nice talent for strawman arguments. All of the sudden what I've said is no longer credible because I didn't provide any sources. Nice work avoiding my points.


M: The point I was making was not that we can only have solar in one place but that just in one single place is way way way way more energy than we need. .03% of the Sahara can power all of Europe.

KK: Nice point. The point I'm making is that the infrastructure needed to deliver that energy will never come into existence. Have a nice day. Pay attention next time.

M: See what I mean? Where are your links. There is nothing to pay attention to but your hot air.

Once again, I explained why that infrastructure won't come into existence. My explanation is based on logic. I wrote the explanation which is why I didn't cite anything. Instead of arguing against it you try to discredit it. Because you had a hard time discrediting what other people and I have pointed out from the beginning, you resorted to cherry picking articles and basically saying: "look, I can Google all these people that agree with me". Anyone can do that. Thats why I don't even bother. Imagine if people in the "Politics & News" forum would say to each other: "you opinion means nothing because you don't have a political science degree or the citation of someone who does". There would be no forum.[/quote]

 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Strawman #1:
The fact that HVDC is being built, has been built, and will be built whenever there is a need for it disproves the notion it won't be built. It is and has been built and therefore will be when there is power available to deliver long distances. It is happening for wind and it will happen for solar. It is happening here and around the world. On your side of the argument you have nothing but what you refer to as a logical opinion.


I never said HVDC won't be built. I said that the entire nation will not be rewired to HVDC so that it can run on solar. Sure, California and Nevada may adapt HVDC but it will not be applied on a national scale for reasons that I pointed out and that you never addressed. Solar and wind will both be used as supplements to current energy sources but not as alternatives.

You are totally illogical as a thinker so you wouldn't know you have been refuted when you were.... The actual facts show your opinion to be a foolish one. And if you could reason at all you would understand that I didn't quote an author that agreed with me.

How could I have been refuted when you never even addressed the points that I conveniently listed for you. What actual facts show that my opinion is foolish if you never addressed it? The author agreed that It could be one on paper. I pointed out why it won't be done in actuality.

I quoted a site that pointed out that 92 miles sq is what we need to solar power the nation. That same point is all over the web at numerous sites and which one I picked was random.

No, you originally quoted that site to hold up your argument about solar power. Then when I pointed out that the author states that it won't happen you discredited it and changed your reason for why you chose to cite the page. I'm going to ask you again: Is the author credible or not? If he's credible on the 92 sq mi claim than he should be credible on his other claim.

Strawman #2:
Because their data conforms to other data collected from other sites and facts on the ground. The WIKI article shows that HVDC is superior to AC for the relevant purposes unlike a number of silly people said, and HVDC is already being used in California and other places. A few hours of study shows that most of the comments placed at the site were done by people badly misinformed. Doubtlessly you don't see that as you are one of the later.

I never said that HVDC is better or worse or impossible. I said it won't be built on a national scale.

Hehe, no use saying it for time number 4 but I will anyway. There were no lines that supported or didn't support what I said. There were lines, from a completely different place that were quoted that gave the area needed for solar for the US. I don't agree or disagree with that. It is the data one gets when one searches for the area needed. I didn't have an opinion it was 92 miles and go out and find such data. I went looking for the area needed. It's just math. There is no picking what part of the author's comments are credible because he is quoting the 92 miles from elsewhere and added the naive notion it couldn't be done. The author was credible enough to quote the right number and no more. I provided proof of that by linking the original.

Right, so he's credible only on the line that agrees with your part of the argument... like I said the first time. What exactly is naive about the other part? You never addressed it.

You can't even state your point of view in words that make any sense much less argue its accuracy. "(i.e concentrating power in a single region is not redundant)?" WTF does that mean.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Redundancy

the provision of additional or duplicate systems, equipment, etc., that function in case an operating part or system fails, as in a spacecraft.


i.e. NYC running off of a single large power plant is not redundant. NYC running off of 5 different smaller plants is redundant because if one fails the entire city can run on the other four on increased load.

If all of the nations energy were concentrated in one region and something were to happen in that region we would be fucked. Its very simple. On top of that, the source depends on the weather of the earth and the sun. So if a few years from now the weather changes and we are not producing what we expected to produce, once again, we are fucked. But these were only a few of the points you never addressed.

Are you fearful of being clear because you are afraid to expose your case to debate?

I clearly listed you reasons why the nation won't run on solar. You never even adressed them. Who is being fearful?

And believe me you have no common sense. You say the sky is green and I say it's blue and post pictures which you call cherry picking the evidence and then you have the gall to call what you do thinking for yourself.

......ok....that makes no sense. When did I post pictures? I said you were doing the cherry picking by selecting only the evidence that supports your opinion and ignoring the contrary.

Hehe. All you hope to do is bury me if verbiage and that ain't gonna work. I'm quite resigned to expose your silliness for what it is.

Well good luck to you. You can start by refuting my points that I listed a few posts back about why the entire nation won't run on solar.

Red Herring #1:

See what I mean? Where are your links. There is nothing to pay attention to but your hot air.

You ignored what I posted on the grounds that I didn't provide references, instead of addressing the points. You need a link telling you that concentrating power in a single region is not redundant? Or a link that points out that the cost of raw materials changes over time? If I claim 2+2 = 4 is it not credible because I didn't provide a reference to any web site?

Go ahead and address each of the points I made (I even put numbers in front of them). All i keep hearing from you is that they are illogical but not why they are. Quit clowning around , you're just burying yourself deeper and deeper.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Here are my points again for convenience:

Basically it (Scientific America article) says everything that we told you already:

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050
2. The entire nation would have to be rewired
3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq
4. Modern storage technology is limited
5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency
6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe.
7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather.
8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion.
9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter?

There is no point in going solar for the entire nation. Get over it. Rewiring the entire country is a colossal job with unpredicted costs. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Your own article that you posted earlier said so. Are you going to discredit it now like you did before.

Solar power is going nowhere on a national scale. Nuclear is still more efficient and will increase in efficiency as technology advances. There is no point to invest in an infrastructure overhaul that will quickly become obsolete. Don't count on the nation being rewired. Get over it. Stop posting articles.
 

40sTheme

Golden Member
Sep 24, 2006
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: Harvey
HELL NO! WE WON'T GLOW!

Fuck McSame yet again.

Yes, because nuclear power plants are just so dangerous... :confused:

Yeah; noone EVER learns anything from their mistakes. Like, who would ever believe crap like that?
:)
Good going, McCain; I fully support this.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Here are my points again for convenience:

Basically it (Scientific America article) says everything that we told you already:

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050
2. The entire nation would have to be rewired
3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq
4. Modern storage technology is limited
5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency
6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe.
7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather.
8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion.
9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter?

There is no point in going solar for the entire nation. Get over it. Rewiring the entire country is a colossal job with unpredicted costs. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Your own article that you posted earlier said so. Are you going to discredit it now like you did before.

Solar power is going nowhere on a national scale. Nuclear is still more efficient and will increase in efficiency as technology advances. There is no point to invest in an infrastructure overhaul that will quickly become obsolete. Don't count on the nation being rewired. Get over it. Stop posting articles.

I can easily imagine why the articles I post annoy you. For example the Scientific American article I posted any you reference as a no no on solar energy says this on just the first page:

"Well-meaning scientists, engineers, economists and politicians have proposed various steps that could slightly reduce fossil-fuel use and emissions. These steps are not enough. The U.S. needs a bold plan to free itself from fossil fuels. Our analysis convinces us that a massive switch to solar power is the logical answer."

Of course you don't know what logic is but it shouldn't take much to realize that if by 2050 we can supply 69% via solar by 2100 we won't need any more fission reactors than the one we already have.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Its sad how a single troll can mess up a thread for EVERYONE, maybe every time Moony posts a thread we should all go in and troll his BS.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Here are my points again for convenience:

Basically it (Scientific America article) says everything that we told you already:

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050
2. The entire nation would have to be rewired
3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq
4. Modern storage technology is limited
5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency
6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe.
7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather.
8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion.
9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter?

There is no point in going solar for the entire nation. Get over it. Rewiring the entire country is a colossal job with unpredicted costs. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Your own article that you posted earlier said so. Are you going to discredit it now like you did before.

Solar power is going nowhere on a national scale. Nuclear is still more efficient and will increase in efficiency as technology advances. There is no point to invest in an infrastructure overhaul that will quickly become obsolete. Don't count on the nation being rewired. Get over it. Stop posting articles.

I can easily imagine why the articles I post annoy you. For example the Scientific American article I posted any you reference as a no no on solar energy says this on just the first page:

"Well-meaning scientists, engineers, economists and politicians have proposed various steps that could slightly reduce fossil-fuel use and emissions. These steps are not enough. The U.S. needs a bold plan to free itself from fossil fuels. Our analysis convinces us that a massive switch to solar power is the logical answer."

Of course you don't know what logic is but it shouldn't take much to realize that if by 2050 we can supply 69% via solar by 2100 we won't need any more fission reactors than the one we already have.

Nice work, you simply repeated yourself, called me "illogical", and once again ignored each of my points on why concentrated solar power will never be done.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Its sad how a single troll can mess up a thread for EVERYONE, maybe every time Moony posts a thread we should all go in and troll his BS.

I think I may have the emotional maturity you lack. I don't mind when people disagree with my positions so long as they can think them through and argue them coherently. I think your problem is that when you can't argue successfully you go into a snit and call your opposition a troll. I have the same reaction from racists when I argue that people are all the same. I don't share there rose colored lenses and don't see the world the same. Your problem boils down to the fact that you support a technology that people hate. I wish you a long and miserable life believing in your, for you, oh so correct delusions.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Its sad how a single troll can mess up a thread for EVERYONE, maybe every time Moony posts a thread we should all go in and troll his BS.

I think I may have the emotional maturity you lack. I don't mind when people disagree with my positions so long as they can think them through and argue them coherently. I think your problem is that when you can't argue successfully you go into a snit and call your opposition a troll. I have the same reaction from racists when I argue that people are all the same. I don't share there rose colored lenses and don't see the world the same. Your problem boils down to the fact that you support a technology that people hate. I wish you a long and miserable life believing in your, for you, oh so correct delusions.

Moonbeam, of all the people in the world you are the last one to be talking about coherent arguments. So far you position has been simply to quote dozens of articles you don't understand and spouting out lots of flowery language and witty sayings. The fact of the matter is that you cannot win this argument on a technical basis as those who oppose you are highly trained in engineering or economic fields whereas your philosophical knowledge while useful in solving theoretical problems is of little use to real world problems where ALL choices have some good and some bad. The fact that you only look at the bad side of nuclear while at the same time look at all of solar's good side and ignoring the bad tells me that you are incapable of arguing this point from a real world perspective and thus must rely solely on semantics to argue what boils down to in your skewed perception to be a black and white issue. This is not arguing if racism is good or bad, there is no absolute right and wrong here.

Cheap reliable energy had brought about the greatest changes in human society over the last 300 years, life spans are longer then ever and we have done away with so many of the injustices of the past, and what has done this is not witty sayings, or philosophical mumbling, it is engineer and science that have improved out lives. Think of it this way, coal and oil probably increased the average human lifespan by 20 years, and yet we despise them now becasue of their imperfections, we insult those who developed coal and oil resources because they kill a few even though they save hundreds of millions. So to with nuclear, maybe a few people are accidentally irradiated and die, but out enntier way of life REQUIRES energy, you can say that using solar might kill 10 people in a year and nuclear 50, but for that same price solar would save 20 million and nuclear would save 100 million. Are the 40 extra people dying of radiation really more important then the 80 million being saved by cheaper medicine, cleaner water, better food etc all of which require cheap energy in order to be available?
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Its sad how a single troll can mess up a thread for EVERYONE, maybe every time Moony posts a thread we should all go in and troll his BS.

I think I may have the emotional maturity you lack. I don't mind when people disagree with my positions so long as they can think them through and argue them coherently. I think your problem is that when you can't argue successfully you go into a snit and call your opposition a troll. I have the same reaction from racists when I argue that people are all the same. I don't share there rose colored lenses and don't see the world the same. Your problem boils down to the fact that you support a technology that people hate. I wish you a long and miserable life believing in your, for you, oh so correct delusions.

Thank you for the big words and very insightful psychoanalysis. But we're all still waiting for you to finish your Red Herring and address the points I brought up.


...."emotional maturity", LOL do you even know the part of the brain that is responsible for emotions? If you did you would know that isn't the correct term. Big phrase though. Nice work.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Here are my points again for convenience:

Basically it (Scientific America article) says everything that we told you already:

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050
2. The entire nation would have to be rewired
3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq
4. Modern storage technology is limited
5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency
6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe.
7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather.
8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion.
9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter?

There is no point in going solar for the entire nation. Get over it. Rewiring the entire country is a colossal job with unpredicted costs. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Your own article that you posted earlier said so. Are you going to discredit it now like you did before.

Solar power is going nowhere on a national scale. Nuclear is still more efficient and will increase in efficiency as technology advances. There is no point to invest in an infrastructure overhaul that will quickly become obsolete. Don't count on the nation being rewired. Get over it. Stop posting articles.

I can easily imagine why the articles I post annoy you. For example the Scientific American article I posted any you reference as a no no on solar energy says this on just the first page:

"Well-meaning scientists, engineers, economists and politicians have proposed various steps that could slightly reduce fossil-fuel use and emissions. These steps are not enough. The U.S. needs a bold plan to free itself from fossil fuels. Our analysis convinces us that a massive switch to solar power is the logical answer."

Of course you don't know what logic is but it shouldn't take much to realize that if by 2050 we can supply 69% via solar by 2100 we won't need any more fission reactors than the one we already have.

Nice work, you simply repeated yourself, called me "illogical", and once again ignored each of my points on why concentrated solar power will never be done.

Illogical is a mild term to apply to somebody who quotes an article on why solar power can, is, and should be built along with the obstacles and how to overcome them as reasons for why it can never happen. A fool would perhaps be a better term.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
BT: Moonbeam, of all the people in the world you are the last one to be talking about coherent arguments. So far you position has been simply to quote dozens of articles you don't understand and spouting out lots of flowery language and witty sayings.

M: You don't know how much of what I have quoted I understand any more than I know what you really understand. I also don't find what I say to be particularly flowery or witty either. Perhaps you can tell me more about this. I will try not to let it go to my head. Hehe.

BT: The fact of the matter is that you cannot win this argument on a technical basis as those who oppose you are highly trained in engineering or economic fields whereas your philosophical knowledge while useful in solving theoretical problems is of little use to real world problems where ALL choices have some good and some bad.

M: This contradicts the experience of have had all my life that the so called wise men are fools. I have mentioned over and over again that people of great myopic expertise can be complete and total fools in the emotional sense. Check with your logical fallacies under an appeal to authority. Also it would be silly to define the parameters of my philosophical knowledge and its usefulness or application in this or that area if you do not have it yourself. It would be like telling somebody with x-ray vision, for example, that it might be good for bones but it can't tell you anything about the sun. I understand the problems with all alternative sources, but the benefits of overcoming them outweigh the benefits of nuclear because of the problems with nuclear I have already mentioned.

BT: The fact that you only look at the bad side of nuclear while at the same time look at all of solar's good side and ignoring the bad tells me that you are incapable of arguing this point from a real world perspective and thus must rely solely on semantics to argue what boils down to in your skewed perception to be a black and white issue. This is not arguing if racism is good or bad, there is no absolute right and wrong here.

M: Is race connected to protection from sun induced skin cancer? How is race any more black and white than the solar nuclear issue? I have suggested a few problems with nuclear, the immorality of producing poisons that last for thousands of years that have no permanent solutions in place to address, Murphy's Law and the magnitude of any real fuck up, and the fact that nuclear is opposed by people anywhere around where they live, to name a few.

BT: Cheap reliable energy had brought about the greatest changes in human society over the last 300 years, life spans are longer then ever and we have done away with so many of the injustices of the past, and what has done this is not witty sayings, or philosophical mumbling, it is engineer and science that have improved out lives. Think of it this way, coal and oil probably increased the average human lifespan by 20 years, and yet we despise them now becasue of their imperfections, we insult those who developed coal and oil resources because they kill a few even though they save hundreds of millions. So to with nuclear, maybe a few people are accidentally irradiated and die, but out enntier way of life REQUIRES energy, you can say that using solar might kill 10 people in a year and nuclear 50, but for that same price solar would save 20 million and nuclear would save 100 million. Are the 40 extra people dying of radiation really more important then the 80 million being saved by cheaper medicine, cleaner water, better food etc all of which require cheap energy in order to be available?

M: You make a huge number of unexamined assumptions which I think are plainly and clearly false. For one thing, fact that cheep energy has been a plus does not have a bearing of the cost of energy today. Our cheapest energy source is coal. If we want cheap energy we need clean coal and CO2 sequestration, not nuclear which is more expensive. At 100 dollars a barrel coal conversion to gasoline is becomes the best place to get gas and we have hundreds of years of supply.
 

Rustican

Member
Feb 7, 2005
120
0
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Here are my points again for convenience:

Basically it (Scientific America article) says everything that we told you already:

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050
2. The entire nation would have to be rewired
3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq
4. Modern storage technology is limited
5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency
6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe.
7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather.
8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion.
9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter?

There is no point in going solar for the entire nation. Get over it. Rewiring the entire country is a colossal job with unpredicted costs. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Your own article that you posted earlier said so. Are you going to discredit it now like you did before.

Solar power is going nowhere on a national scale. Nuclear is still more efficient and will increase in efficiency as technology advances. There is no point to invest in an infrastructure overhaul that will quickly become obsolete. Don't count on the nation being rewired. Get over it. Stop posting articles.


Illogical is a mild term to apply to somebody who quotes an article on why solar power can, is, and should be built along with the obstacles and how to overcome them as reasons for why it can never happen. A fool would perhaps be a better term.

i missed the part of that post where you address the issues I brought up.

I missed the part where they were issues.

This is a good discussion about nuclear power but one sided since Moonbeam hasn't address the points that KurskKnyaz has brought up.
This is probably because Moonbeam is a very busy person and can't possibly spare the time to reply.
So to continue the discussion i will answer for Moonbeam guessing his most likely
responses to KurskKnyaz points.

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050
MB response: The sun is in the sky right now! Of course we can fully convert to Solar power!!!!!11111oneoneelevinty

2. The entire nation would have to be rewired
MB response: DC >>>>>>>>>gretar AC noob!!!!!

3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq
MB response: Bush is the devil!

4. Modern storage technology is limited
MB response: Lakes of molten salt to hold heat. It's safe! Really...

5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency
MB response: Lalalalalalalalalalalalalal! I can't hear you!

6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe.
MB response: Um... Nuclear power is EVIL!!! Not in my back yard!!! Natural disasters? Unpossible!

7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather.
MB response: Chernobyle makes radioactive clouds of death!!! Solar is better!

8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion.
MB Response: Yeah well... Look at this link about Solar Power! How about this link? This one? Look, dancing baby!

9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter?
MB response: Rolling blackouts. DUH!


Of course i could be totally off as to how Moonbeam might respond. If i am then by all mean please let Moonbeam correct me.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
i missed the part of that post where you address the issues I brought up.

I missed the part where they were issues.

How is that you responded to the message where I posted them. Of course you ignored the issues part.

Another member dressed them already for you. But your response would be interesting, though I doubt much different.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
From the Scientific American article you cite as proof of your case:

Key Concepts
A massive switch from coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power plants to solar power plants could supply 69 percent of the U.S.?s electricity and 35 percent of its total energy by 2050.
A vast area of photovoltaic cells would have to be erected in the Southwest. Excess daytime energy would be stored as compressed air in underground caverns to be tapped during nighttime hours.
Large solar concentrator power plants would be built as well.
A new direct-current power transmission backbone would deliver solar electricity across the country.
But $420 billion in subsidies from 2011 to 2050 would be required to fund the infrastructure and make it cost-competitive.
?The Editors
High prices for gasoline and home heating oil are here to stay. The U.S. is at war in the Middle East at least in part to protect its foreign oil interests. And as China, India and other nations rapidly increase their demand for fossil fuels, future fighting over energy looms large. In the meantime, power plants that burn coal, oil and natural gas, as well as vehicles everywhere, continue to pour millions of tons of pollutants and greenhouse gases into the atmosphere annually, threatening the planet.

Well-meaning scientists, engineers, economists and politicians have proposed various steps that could slightly reduce fossil-fuel use and emissions. These steps are not enough. The U.S. needs a bold plan to free itself from fossil fuels. Our analysis convinces us that a massive switch to solar power is the logical answer.

Solar energy?s potential is off the chart. The energy in sunlight striking the earth for 40 minutes is equivalent to global energy consumption for a year. The U.S. is lucky to be endowed with a vast resource; at least 250,000 square miles of land in the Southwest alone are suitable for constructing solar power plants, and that land receives more than 4,500 quadrillion British thermal units (Btu) of solar radiation a year. Converting only 2.5 percent of that radiation into electricity would match the nation?s total energy consumption in 2006.

To convert the country to solar power, huge tracts of land would have to be covered with photovoltaic panels and solar heating troughs. A direct-current (DC) transmission backbone would also have to be erected to send that energy efficiently across the nation.

The technology is ready. 1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050 You lied, the technology is ready On the following pages we present a grand plan that could provide 69 percent of the U.S.?s electricity and 35 percent of its total energy (which includes transportation) with solar power by 2050. We project that this energy could be sold to consumers at rates equivalent to today?s rates for conventional power sources, about five cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh). If wind, biomass and geothermal sources were also developed, renewable energy could provide 100 percent of the nation?s electricity and 90 percent of its energy by 2100.

The federal government would have to invest more than $400 billion over the next 40 years to complete the 2050 plan. That investment is substantial, but the payoff is greater. Solar plants consume little or no fuel, saving billions of dollars year after year. The infrastructure would displace 300 large coal-fired power plants and 300 more large natural gas plants and all the fuels they consume. The plan would effectively eliminate all imported oil, fundamentally cutting U.S. trade deficits and easing political tension in the Middle East and elsewhere. Because solar technologies are almost pollution-free, the plan would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions from power plants by 1.7 billion tons a year, and another 1.9 billion tons from gasoline vehicles would be displaced by plug-in hybrids refueled by the solar power grid. In 2050 U.S. carbon dioxide emissions would be 62 percent below 2005 levels, putting a major brake on global warming. 3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq You lied about the cost. The payback is greater than the cost

Photovoltaic Farms
In the past few years the cost to produce photovoltaic cells and modules has dropped significantly, opening the way for large-scale deployment. Various cell types exist, but the least expen­sive modules today are thin films made of cadmium telluride. To provide electricity at six cents per kWh by 2020, cadmium telluride modules would have to convert electricity with 14 percent efficiency, and systems would have to be installed at $1.20 per watt of capacity. Current modules have 10 percent efficiency and an installed system cost of about $4 per watt. Progress is clearly needed, but the technology is advancing quickly; commercial efficiencies have risen from 9 to 10 percent in the past 12 months. It is worth noting, too, that as modules improve, rooftop photovoltaics will become more cost-competitive for homeowners, reducing daytime electricity demand.

In our plan, by 2050 photovoltaic technology would provide almost 3,000 gigawatts (GW), or billions of watts, of power. Some 30,000 square miles of photovoltaic arrays would have to be erected. Although this area may sound enormous, installations already in place indicate that the land required for each gigawatt-hour of solar energy produced in the Southwest is less than that needed for a coal-powered plant when factoring in land for coal mining. Studies by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo., show that more than enough land in the Southwest is available without requiring use of environmentally sensitive areas, population centers or difficult terrain. Jack Lavelle, a spokesperson for Arizona?s Department of Water Conservation, has noted that more than 80 percent of his state?s land is not privately owned and that Arizona is very interested in developing its solar potential. The benign nature of photovoltaic plants (including no water consumption) should keep environmental concerns to a minimum.

The main progress required, then, is to raise module efficiency to 14 percent. Although the efficiencies of commercial modules will never reach those of solar cells in the laboratory, cadmium telluride cells at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory are now up to 16.5 percent and rising. At least one manufacturer, First Solar in Perrysburg, Ohio, increased module efficiency from 6 to 10 percent from 2005 to 2007 and is reaching for 11.5 percent by 2010.

Pressurized Caverns
The great limiting factor of solar power, of course, is that it generates little electricity when skies are cloudy and none at night. Excess power must therefore be produced during sunny hours and stored for use during dark hours. Most energy storage systems such as batteries are expensive or inefficient.

Compressed-air energy storage has emerged as a successful alternative. 5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency. You mislead when you say compression reduced solar efficiency. It increases the capacity of solar to be used at night. The efficiency of a solar collector itself is unaffected. But generating capacity in the daytime has to be increased. Wind and geothermal or bio can kick in here also. Electricity from photovoltaic plants compresses air and pumps it into vacant underground caverns, abandoned mines, aquifers and depleted natural gas wells. The pressurized air is released on demand to turn a turbine that generates electricity, aided by burning small amounts of natural gas. Compressed-air energy storage plants have been operating reliably in Huntorf, Germany, since 1978 and in McIntosh, Ala., since 1991. The turbines burn only 40 percent of the natural gas they would if they were fueled by natural gas alone, and better heat recovery technology would lower that figure to 30 percent.

Studies by the Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, Calif., indicate that the cost of compressed-air energy storage today is about half that of lead-acid batteries. The research indicates that these facilities would add three or four cents per kWh to photovoltaic generation, bringing the total 2020 cost to eight or nine cents per kWh.

Electricity from photovoltaic farms in the Southwest would be sent over high-voltage DC transmission lines to compressed-air storage facilities throughout the country, where turbines would generate electricity year-round. The key is to find adequate sites. Mapping by the natural gas industry and the Electric Power Research Institute shows that suitable geologic formations exist in 75 percent of the country, often close to metropolitan areas. Indeed, a compressed-air energy storage system would look similar to the U.S. natural gas storage system. The industry stores eight trillion cubic feet of gas in 400 underground reservoirs. By 2050 our plan would require 535 billion cubic feet of storage, with air pressurized at 1,100 pounds per square inch. Although development will be a challenge, plenty of reservoirs are available, and it would be reasonable for the natural gas industry to invest in such a network. 4. Modern storage technology is limited You lied by a factor of 8 trillion divided by 535 billion

Hot Salt
Another technology that would supply perhaps one fifth of the solar energy in our vision is known as concentrated solar power. In this design, long, metallic mirrors focus sunlight onto a pipe filled with fluid, heating the fluid like a huge magnifying glass might. The hot fluid runs through a heat exchanger, producing steam that turns a turbine.

For energy storage, the pipes run into a large, insulated tank filled with molten salt, which retains heat efficiently. Heat is extracted at night, creating steam. The molten salt does slowly cool, however, so the energy stored must be tapped within a day.

Nine concentrated solar power plants with a total capacity of 354 megawatts (MW) have been generating electricity reliably for years in the U.S. A new 64-MW plant in Nevada came online in March 2007. These plants, however, do not have heat storage. The first commercial installation to incorporate it?a 50-MW plant with seven hours of molten salt storage?is being constructed in Spain, and others are being designed around the world. For our plan, 16 hours of storage would be needed so that electricity could be generated 24 hours a day.

Existing plants prove that concentrated solar power is practical, but costs must decrease. Economies of scale and continued research would help. In 2006 a report by the Solar Task Force of the Western Governors? Association concluded that concentrated solar power could provide electricity at 10 cents per kWh or less by 2015 if 4 GW of plants were constructed. Finding ways to boost the temperature of heat exchanger fluids would raise operating efficiency, too. Engineers are also investigating how to use molten salt itself as the heat-transfer fluid, reducing heat losses as well as capital costs. Salt is corrosive, however, so more resilient piping systems are needed.

Concentrated solar power and photovoltaics represent two different technology paths. Neither is fully developed, so our plan brings them both to large-scale deployment by 2020, giving them time to mature. Various combinations of solar technologies might also evolve to meet demand economically. As installations expand, engineers and accountants can evaluate the pros and cons, and investors may decide to support one technology more than another.

Direct Current, Too
The geography of solar power is obviously different from the nation?s current supply scheme. Today coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power plants dot the landscape, built relatively close to where power is needed. Most of the country?s solar generation would stand in the Southwest. The existing system of alternating-current (AC) power lines is not robust enough to carry power from these centers to consumers everywhere and would lose too much energy over long hauls. A new high-voltage, direct-current (HVDC) power transmission backbone would have to be built. 2. The entire nation would have to be rewired. You lied, a new backbone would have to be built to transport power to the existing wiring and it is needed already to prevent blackouts we have already seen across the nation

Studies by Oak Ridge National Laboratory indicate that long-distance HVDC lines lose far less energy than AC lines do over equivalent spans. The backbone would radiate from the Southwest toward the nation?s borders. The lines would terminate at converter stations where the power would be switched to AC and sent along existing regional transmission lines that supply customers.

The AC system is also simply out of capacity, leading to noted shortages in California and other regions; DC lines are cheaper to build and require less land area than equivalent AC lines. About 500 miles of HVDC lines operate in the U.S. today and have proved reliable and efficient. No major technical advances seem to be needed, but more experience would help refine operations. The Southwest Power Pool of Texas is designing an integrated system of DC and AC transmission to enable development of 10 GW of wind power in western Texas. And TransCanada, Inc., is proposing 2,200 miles of HVDC lines to carry wind energy from Montana and Wyoming south to Las Vegas and beyond.

Stage One: Present to 2020
We have given considerable thought to how the solar grand plan can be deployed. We foresee two distinct stages. The first, from now until 2020, must make solar competitive at the mass-production level. This stage will require the government to guarantee 30-year loans, agree to purchase power and provide price-support subsidies. The annual aid package would rise steadily from 2011 to 2020. At that time, the solar technologies would compete on their own merits. The cumulative subsidy would total $420 billion (we will explain later how to pay this bill).

About 84 GW of photovoltaics and concentrated solar power plants would be built by 2020. In parallel, the DC transmission system would be laid. It would expand via existing rights-of-way along interstate highway corridors, minimizing land-acquisition and regulatory hurdles. This backbone would reach major markets in Phoenix, Las Vegas, Los Angeles and San Diego to the west and San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans, Birmingham, Ala., Tampa, Fla., and Atlanta to the east.

Building 1.5 GW of photovoltaics and 1.5 GW of concentrated solar power annually in the first five years would stimulate many manufacturers to scale up. In the next five years, annual construction would rise to 5 GW apiece, helping firms optimize production lines. As a result, solar electricity would fall toward six cents per kWh. This implementation schedule is realistic; more than 5 GW of nuclear power plants were built in the U.S. each year from 1972 to 1987. What is more, solar systems can be manufactured and installed at much faster rates than conventional power plants because of their straightforward design and relative lack of environmental and safety complications.

Stage Two: 2020 to 2050
It is paramount that major market incentives remain in effect through 2020, to set the stage for self-sustained growth thereafter. In extending our model to 2050, we have been conservative. We do not include any technological or cost improvements beyond 2020. We also assume that energy demand will grow nationally by 1 percent a year. In this scenario, by 2050 solar power plants will supply 69 percent of U.S. electricity and 35 percent of total U.S. energy. This quantity includes enough to supply all the electricity consumed by 344 million plug-in hybrid vehicles, which would displace their gasoline counterparts, key to reducing dependence on foreign oil and to mitigating greenhouse gas emissions. Some three million new domestic jobs?notably in manufacturing solar components?would be created, which is several times the number of U.S. jobs that would be lost in the then dwindling fossil-fuel industries.

The huge reduction in imported oil would lower trade balance payments by $300 billion a year, assuming a crude oil price of $60 a barrel (average prices were higher in 2007). Once solar power plants are installed, they must be maintained and repaired, but the price of sunlight is forever free, duplicating those fuel savings year after year. Moreover, the solar investment would enhance national energy security, reduce financial burdens on the military, and greatly decrease the societal costs of pollution and global warming, from human health problems to the ruining of coastlines and farmlands.

Ironically, the solar grand plan would lower energy consumption. Even with 1 percent annual growth in demand, the 100 quadrillion Btu consumed in 2006 would fall to 93 quadrillion Btu by 2050. This unusual offset arises because a good deal of energy is consumed to extract and process fossil fuels, and more is wasted in burning them and controlling their emissions.

To meet the 2050 projection, 46,000 square miles of land would be needed for photovoltaic and concentrated solar power installations. That area is large, and yet it covers just 19 percent of the suitable Southwest land. Most of that land is barren; there is no competing use value. And the land will not be polluted. 9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter? You lied when you said that geographical capacity is limited. We have assumed that only 10 percent of the solar capacity in 2050 will come from distributed photovoltaic installations?those on rooftops or commercial lots throughout the country. But as prices drop, these applications could play a bigger role. 8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion. You lied by implying that solar won't undergo a similar evolution. By 2100 there will be no need for earth based fusion.

2050 and Beyond
Although it is not possible to project with any exactitude 50 or more years into the future, as an exercise to demonstrate the full potential of solar energy we constructed a scenario for 2100. By that time, based on our plan, total energy demand (including transportation) is projected to be 140 quadrillion Btu, with seven times today?s electric generating capacity.

To be conservative, again, we estimated how much solar plant capacity would be needed under the historical worst-case solar radiation conditions for the Southwest, which occurred during the winter of 1982?1983 and in 1992 and 1993 following the Mount Pinatubo eruption, according to National Solar Radiation Data Base records from 1961 to 2005. And again, we did not assume any further technological and cost improvements beyond 2020, even though it is nearly certain that in 80 years ongoing research would improve solar efficiency, cost and storage. 7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather. You lied that weather wasn't factored in

Under these assumptions, U.S. energy demand could be fulfilled with the following capacities: 2.9 terawatts (TW) of photovoltaic power going directly to the grid and another 7.5 TW dedicated to compressed-air storage; 2.3 TW of concentrated solar power plants; and 1.3 TW of distributed photovoltaic installations. Supply would be rounded out with 1 TW of wind farms, 0.2 TW of geothermal power plants and 0.25 TW of biomass-based production for fuels. The model includes 0.5 TW of geothermal heat pumps for direct building heating and cooling. The solar systems would require 165,000 square miles of land, still less than the suitable available area in the Southwest. 6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe. You lied about the concentration and gave no evidence it's unsafe.

In 2100 this renewable portfolio could generate 100 percent of all U.S. electricity and more than 90 percent of total U.S. energy. In the spring and summer, the solar infrastructure would produce enough hydrogen to meet more than 90 percent of all transportation fuel demand and would replace the small natural gas supply used to aid compressed-air turbines. Adding 48 billion gallons of biofuel would cover the rest of transportation energy. Energy-related carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced 92 percent below 2005 levels.

Who Pays?
Our model is not an austerity plan, because it includes a 1 percent annual increase in demand, which would sustain lifestyles similar to those today with expected efficiency improvements in energy generation and use. Perhaps the biggest question is how to pay for a $420-billion overhaul of the nation?s energy infrastructure. One of the most common ideas is a carbon tax. The International Energy Agency suggests that a carbon tax of $40 to $90 per ton of coal will be required to induce electricity generators to adopt carbon capture and storage systems to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. This tax is equivalent to raising the price of electricity by one to two cents per kWh. But our plan is less expensive. The $420 billion could be generated with a carbon tax of 0.5 cent per kWh. Given that electricity today generally sells for six to 10 cents per kWh, adding 0.5 cent per kWh seems reasonable.

Congress could establish the financial incentives by adopting a national renewable energy plan. Consider the U.S. Farm Price Support program, which has been justified in terms of national security. A solar price support program would secure the nation?s energy future, vital to the country?s long-term health. Subsidies would be gradually deployed from 2011 to 2020. With a standard 30-year payoff interval, the subsidies would end from 2041 to 2050. The HVDC transmission companies would not have to be subsidized, because they would finance construction of lines and converter stations just as they now finance AC lines, earning revenues by delivering electricity.

Although $420 billion is substantial, the annual expense would be less than the current U.S. Farm Price Support program. It is also less than the tax subsidies that have been levied to build the country?s high-speed telecommunications infrastructure over the past 35 years. And it frees the U.S. from policy and budget issues driven by international energy conflicts.

Without subsidies, the solar grand plan is impossible. Other countries have reached similar conclusions: Japan is already building a large, subsidized solar infrastructure, and Germany has embarked on a nationwide program. Although the investment is high, it is important to remember that the energy source, sunlight, is free. There are no annual fuel or pollution-control costs like those for coal, oil or nuclear power, and only a slight cost for natural gas in compressed-air systems, although hydrogen or biofuels could displace that, too. When fuel savings are factored in, the cost of solar would be a bargain in coming decades. But we cannot wait until then to begin scaling up.

Critics have raised other concerns, such as whether material constraints could stifle large-scale installation. With rapid deployment, temporary shortages are possible. But several types of cells exist that use different material combinations. Better processing and recycling are also reducing the amount of materials that cells require. And in the long term, old solar cells can largely be recycled into new solar cells, changing our energy supply picture from depletable fuels to recyclable materials.

The greatest obstacle to implementing a renewable U.S. energy system is not technology or money, however. It is the lack of public awareness that solar power is a practical alternative?and one that can fuel transportation as well. Forward-looking thinkers should try to inspire U.S. citizens, and their political and scientific leaders, about solar power?s incredible potential. Once Americans realize that potential, we believe the desire for energy self-sufficiency and the need to reduce carbon dioxide emissions will prompt them to adopt a national solar plan. 

ABOUT THE AUTHOR(S)
Ken Zweibel, James Mason and Vasilis Fthenakis met a decade ago while working on life-cycle studies of photovoltaics. Zweibel is president of PrimeStar Solar in Golden, Colo., and for 15 years was manager of the National Renewable Energy Laboratorys Thin-Film PV Partnership. Mason is director of the Solar Energy Campaign and the Hydrogen Research Institute in Farmingdale, N.Y. Fthenakis is head of the Photovoltaic Environmental Research Center at Brook haven National Laboratory and is a professor in and director of Columbia Universitys Center for Life Cycle Analysis.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
I asked you to refute them, not Popular Science. ....but here we go:

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050 You lied, the technology is ready

Thermal, yes. Photovoltaic is not because those panels still contain heavy metals which will make their way to the environment. The article doesn't specify which type will be used and to what extent if both are used.

2. The entire nation would have to be rewired. You lied, a new backbone would have to be built to transport power to the existing wiring and it is needed already to prevent blackouts we have already seen across the nation

Yes, backbone = rewired. This is not a matter of running a long cable across the country its creating a HVDC backbone to which everything is wired to through AC transmission lines. Why do you think this will take the expected 40 years to develop? Blackouts are rare events and most states have a redundant architecture. That's no reason to build a HVDC backbone.

3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq You lied about the cost. The payback is greater than the cost

No I didn't lie. That's what it costs. Because it costs so much, investing that much money into something that lacks redundancy is not a good idea. Sure, the payout will be greater on paper, but the initial cost is a high-risk investment that no one will undertake for reasons I pointed out already (mainly weather, concentration, and unpredictable cost of raw materials. Like I said, even when you build a house the contractor gives you an estimate and not a set price.

4. Modern storage technology is limited You lied by a factor of 8 trillion divided by 535 billion

5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency. You mislead when you say compression reduced solar efficiency. It increases the capacity of solar to be used at night. The efficiency of a solar collector itself is unaffected. But generating capacity in the daytime has to be increased. Wind and geothermal or bio can kick in here also

Compressing air uses energy. This is basic physics and compressing air seems very inefficient due to resistance in such a vast pipeline. I don't know if they accounted for that when they gave out the final number of the amount of energy solar can produce. How much energy compressing gas will use depends on the temperature at which the process is done. Once again, i don't know if this was accounted for. Is the network of compressed air chambers also accounted for in the cost of this engineering miracle?

"The turbines burn only 40 percent of the natural gas they would if they were fueled by natural gas alone, and better heat recovery technology would lower that figure to 30 percent. "

That part sounds like that heat recover technology is not ready yet.

6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe. You lied about the concentration and gave no evidence it's unsafe.

If you paid attention these calculations were done with solar being used along biomass and geothermal, not solar alone. More complexity to the engineering miracle. Where is the lie? The article said it will be in the southwest. So if something were to happen in that specific region the entire country would be fucked because the energy supply is in a single location. You need evidence for common sense? Remember what happened when East Germany's electricity depended on the USSR? They were left in the dark because their energy was routed to one source. What happened to the Cuban economy when Castro decided that the economy should depend on sugar cane export (which depends on weather to a great extent)? Cuba got fucked. - There's your evidence. Now put the facts together and consider what happens when our energy source is un-redundant.

7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather. You lied that weather wasn't factored in

I didn't lie. We don't know the weather forecast decades from now. The IPCC have spend billions in research over decades trying to figure out a model and they never got it. We know even less about the sun. What if a volcanic eruption releases ash that blocks out the sun and reduces capacity? Was that factored in? No, and neither were a shitload of ofther variables. Its one thing to have your energy depend on the weather. Having it depend on the weather of the south-west (a single region) is even less redundant.

8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion. You lied by implying that solar won't undergo a similar evolution. By 2100 there will be no need for earth based fusion.

I can't lie by implication. That is a logical fallacy. Solar will always be a chemical reaction. Nuclear reactions produce far more energy per unit of mass. Its as simple as that. If they're going to build a HVDC backbone they might as well do it to a farm of nuclear reactors in the south west. You would need less area and produce more energy.

9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter? You lied when you said that geographical capacity is limited.

That is not a lie. Energy demands are expected to grow. You eventually run out of space. Simple as that. You're using 19% of the land to power the nation along with wind, bio and geothermal (it looks like this article wasn't talking about just solar and I still have no idea how this was calculated). It takes 40 years to build just that, how long will it take to meet a demand increase?


Moonbeam your, I mean Polular Science's argument is going nowhere. You are advocating a $400 billion investment that is high risk. It is high risk because the weather of the earth, the sun, the cost of raw materials are far too unstable to be predicted in the future. That is why this high risk investment will never happen and redundancy is another reason. The last reason is that alternative technologies are available that are more predictable. You can predict what a chunk of uranium will produce to the watt. When nano-tech advances there will be far better alternatives in the next 40 years that will be more efficient and cheaper to implement. Why would anyone build a HVDC backbone when superconductors will be distributing electricity by then? Makes no sense right?

 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Why would anyone build a HVDC backbone when superconductors will be distributing electricity by then? Makes no sense right?

Not really related to this thread, but superconductors would favor HVDC, not AC so your statement is entirely wrong. HVDC is better at long distances because you get rid of the reactance and only have to worry about the resistance. With super conductors you are only getting rid of the resistance (mostly sorta), so with AC super conductors you would still have considerable impedance from the reactance portion, but with DC super conductors there is no reactance AND no resistance so there is virtually no impedance at all.

You know, this is just the sorta basic electrical engineering problem that people like you and MoonBeam wouldn't understand.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Why would anyone build a HVDC backbone when superconductors will be distributing electricity by then? Makes no sense right?

Not really related to this thread, but superconductors would favor HVDC, not AC so your statement is entirely wrong. HVDC is better at long distances because you get rid of the reactance and only have to worry about the resistance. With super conductors you are only getting rid of the resistance (mostly sorta), so with AC super conductors you would still have considerable impedance from the reactance portion, but with DC super conductors there is no reactance AND no resistance so there is virtually no impedance at all.

You know, this is just the sorta basic electrical engineering problem that people like you and MoonBeam wouldn't understand.

I'll take your word for it. My point was that there is no point of building any electrical backbone when super conductors are around the corner. Why build a copper backbone just to replace it?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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KK: I asked you to refute them, not Popular Science. ....but here we go:

M: It wasn't Popular Science, Idiot, it was Scientific American.

1. Solar technology is immature and won't be mature until 2050 You lied, the technology is ready

Thermal, yes. Photovoltaic is not because those panels still contain heavy metals which will make their way to the environment. The article doesn't specify which type will be used and to what extent if both are used.

M: As the idiot tries to invent new issues. The reasons for that were given. You don't read, can't think or are a lying fuck.

2. The entire nation would have to be rewired. You lied, a new backbone would have to be built to transport power to the existing wiring and it is needed already to prevent blackouts we have already seen across the nation

Yes, backbone = rewired. This is not a matter of running a long cable across the country its creating a HVDC backbone to which everything is wired to through AC transmission lines. Why do you think this will take the expected 40 years to develop? Blackouts are rare events and most states have a redundant architecture. That's no reason to build a HVDC backbone.[/g]

No backbone does not equal rewired. It is additional capacity just like that being added all the time. Your lies were debunked by the piece. The entire project would take 40 years.

3. This costs as much as the war in Iraq You lied about the cost. The payback is greater than the cost

No I didn't lie. That's what it costs. Because it costs so much, investing that much money into something that lacks redundancy is not a good idea. Sure, the payout will be greater on paper, but the initial cost is a high-risk investment that no one will undertake for reasons I pointed out already (mainly weather, concentration, and unpredictable cost of raw materials. Like I said, even when you build a house the contractor gives you an estimate and not a set price.

Where are the links supporting your opinions you liar. If I give you a dollar and you give it back the cost to me is nothing, not we we paid in Iraq. You are a pinhead of the first order. The whole piece was all about why your opinions are lies.

4. Modern storage technology is limited You lied by a factor of 8 trillion divided by 535 billion

5. we would need to use compressed gas which would decrease solar efficiency. You mislead when you say compression reduced solar efficiency. It increases the capacity of solar to be used at night. The efficiency of a solar collector itself is unaffected. But generating capacity in the daytime has to be increased. Wind and geothermal or bio can kick in here also

Compressing air uses energy. This is basic physics and compressing air seems very inefficient due to resistance in such a vast pipeline. I don't know if they accounted for that when they gave out the final number of the amount of energy solar can produce. How much energy compressing gas will use depends on the temperature at which the process is done. Once again, i don't know if this was accounted for. Is the network of compressed air chambers also accounted for in the cost of this engineering miracle?

What fucking vast pipeline? Everything was in the article in plain English. You are out in left field and haven't a clue what you're talking about.

"The turbines burn only 40 percent of the natural gas they would if they were fueled by natural gas alone, and better heat recovery technology would lower that figure to 30 percent. "

That part sounds like that heat recover technology is not ready yet.

Really, but the science is all understood and in place. Nothing undiscovered is required.

6. we would concentrate the nations power into one geographical region - not safe. You lied about the concentration and gave no evidence it's unsafe.

If you paid attention these calculations were done with solar being used along biomass and geothermal, not solar alone. More complexity to the engineering miracle. Where is the lie? The article said it will be in the southwest. So if something were to happen in that specific region the entire country would be fucked because the energy supply is in a single location. You need evidence for common sense? Remember what happened when East Germany's electricity depended on the USSR? They were left in the dark because their energy was routed to one source. What happened to the Cuban economy when Castro decided that the economy should depend on sugar cane export (which depends on weather to a great extent)? Cuba got fucked. - There's your evidence. Now put the facts together and consider what happens when our energy source is un-redundant.

If you paid attention you would know that's untrue.

7. The entire nations energy supply would depend on the weather. You lied that weather wasn't factored in

I didn't lie. We don't know the weather forecast decades from now. The IPCC have spend billions in research over decades trying to figure out a model and they never got it. We know even less about the sun. What if a volcanic eruption releases ash that blocks out the sun and reduces capacity? Was that factored in? No, and neither were a shitload of ofther variables. Its one thing to have your energy depend on the weather. Having it depend on the weather of the south-west (a single region) is even less redundant.

Yeah, the volcanoes were factored in if you happened to read the article you would know that. Everything was factored in but the fantasies you pull our of your ass. You do realize of course that we can't have nuclear because a plant or Yucca mountain might get hit by an asteroid, right?

8. By 2100 we will have more efficient sources of nuclear energy such as fusion. You lied by implying that solar won't undergo a similar evolution. By 2100 there will be no need for earth based fusion.

I can't lie by implication. That is a logical fallacy. Solar will always be a chemical reaction. Nuclear reactions produce far more energy per unit of mass. Its as simple as that. If they're going to build a HVDC backbone they might as well do it to a farm of nuclear reactors in the south west. You would need less area and produce more energy.

You're a liar to claim we will have fusion in 100 years. We don't know if we will or not. And don't forget nobody is going to allow nuclear to be built so you can forget that.

9. Geographical capacity limits solar power. If energy demand increase what will you do? Ask the sun to burn hotter? You lied when you said that geographical capacity is limited.

That is not a lie. Energy demands are expected to grow. You eventually run out of space. Simple as that. You're using 19% of the land to power the nation along with wind, bio and geothermal (it looks like this article wasn't talking about just solar and I still have no idea how this was calculated). It takes 40 years to build just that, how long will it take to meet a demand increase?

One month 4 days 6 hours and 12 seconds. You have no idea about much at all.


Moonbeam your, I mean Polular Science's argument is going nowhere. You are advocating a $400 billion investment that is high risk. It is high risk because the weather of the earth, the sun, the cost of raw materials are far too unstable to be predicted in the future. That is why this high risk investment will never happen and redundancy is another reason. The last reason is that alternative technologies are available that are more predictable. You can predict what a chunk of uranium will produce to the watt. When nano-tech advances there will be far better alternatives in the next 40 years that will be more efficient and cheaper to implement. Why would anyone build a HVDC backbone when superconductors will be distributing electricity by then? Makes no sense right?

Scientific American, remember. You are far far out to lunch. I await your Scientific American article debunking it.

The dog may bark but the caravan moves on.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Why would anyone build a HVDC backbone when superconductors will be distributing electricity by then? Makes no sense right?

Not really related to this thread, but superconductors would favor HVDC, not AC so your statement is entirely wrong. HVDC is better at long distances because you get rid of the reactance and only have to worry about the resistance. With super conductors you are only getting rid of the resistance (mostly sorta), so with AC super conductors you would still have considerable impedance from the reactance portion, but with DC super conductors there is no reactance AND no resistance so there is virtually no impedance at all.

You know, this is just the sorta basic electrical engineering problem that people like you and MoonBeam wouldn't understand.

Hey, why did you include me in that criticism? I made no claims about super conductivity much less ones I didn't understand. I was aware of the difference in AC and DC with respect to impedance and reactance but didn't know they carry over into a supercooled situation. I was simply amused that somebody who can't feature the technical feasibility of solar in the desert is ready for super conductivity transmission lines.

But I'm open to you comments on the HVDC. I am of the opinion, and it is only an opinion, that if we had, right now, solar in the deserts of the South West generating all the power we need, but no way to deliver it, the lines would be built to deliver it and probably rather quickly. Would you agree or not?
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But I'm open to you comments on the HVDC. I am of the opinion, and it is only an opinion, that if we had, right now, solar in the deserts of the South West generating all the power we need, but no way to deliver it, the lines would be built to deliver it and probably rather quickly. Would you agree or not?

Well, obviously if solar plants appeared out of thin air producing cheap electricity then people would build power lines to get to them, but its a purely hypothetical situation due to the fact that there is no such thing as a cheap solar plant. Not to mention the fact that you would have to include the price of the transmission lines along with the price of the plant when you consider whether or not it is economical. I mean even if the solar plant was free, the 4 Billion dollar transmission line to bring its power to a populated area it already about the same price as a new nuclear plant. TBH I would have to say that even if we could build solar plants in the southwest were free (or maybe like 1/4 the cost of new nuclear) they would still not be economical because of the increased need for transmission and storage/backup power. Of course when you add the fact that solar plants are 4 times what a nuclear plant costs you get a total price that reaches into the absurd.