Mazdaspeed 6 vs Subaru Legacy Spec B

[satyajitmenon]

Anyone here own(ed) either of these?

Am in the market for one and am interested in hearing from owners - what I should look out for, problem areas, etc.

The basic requirement is a 4 seater 250+ hp RWD/AWD sedan with manual transmission, 2006 or newer, and under 18k. Anything else I should keep in consideration?

I've thought about spending a little more and getting a nice E46. But BMW post warranty repairs/maintenance does scare me a bit.

 

[DivideBYZero]

E46

 

[superunknown98]

I never bothered to drive either, but I was interested in them untill I bought an S2000. The 2006 spec b's (legacy gt's also) had a problem with the banjo bolt screen clogging. This would starve the turbo of oil and eventually blow it. Subaru would claim lack of maintinece was the cause and not cover it. I believe Subaru changed the turbos and some other parts afterwards, but it was enough to scare me away.

The Madza had two problems. Earlier cars had a clutch pedal problem, and mazda recalled them. However other people on Mazda forums were complaining of lost power even after multiple firmware updates. Mazda seemed disinterested in fixing it, last I heard. Maybe these issues are fixed by now, but I wasn't willing to buy a used car with big problems like those.

 

[fbrdphreak]

I did your exact shopping two years ago. I test drove a Mazdaspeed6, speed3 and a stock Legacy GT before buying my car & driving it home from Michigan to NC.

The speed6 is a nice ride. Interior quality is comparable to the Legacy IMO, but the seats are far better. I found the lower trim level with the cloth seats and such to be lacking; I wanted all the amenities, but didn't get to test drive a loaded speed6.

The handling is excellent and far better than the Legacy out of the box IMO. Stiffer chassis, less roll. The engine is more responsive at lower RPMs and the gears shorter than the Legacy's 5-speed, making for a more responsive package. I've not driven a 6-speed Spec.B, but I imagine the gearing helps a bit. FWIW, the 5-speed Legacy actually hits 0-60 faster since it doesn't have to go to 3rd gear. The speed6 will also get better gas mileage from what I understand. It also has more interior room IIRC.

I would find a Mazdaspeed forum and look into the long term reliability of the cars. The engine and tranny should be good, as they're nearly identical to the MS3 AFAIK. I would be concerned about which parts are unique to the MS6, as the car was only made for a couple years. The only problem I definitively heard about was leaking rear differentials.

IMO, the Spec.B suspension isn't anything special. You get aluminum control arms and Bilstein struts - big whoop; saves you about $1200 in aftermarket parts. You will still want to put stiffer springs and sway bars on there to get properly controlled ride. I rode in an 06 Spec.B with STi Pink springs and Cobb sways - flat cornering, great grip and excellent ride quality. That is what I'm going to do with my car.

The only thing really special about the Spec.B IMO is the 6-speed that 07+ models got. I've not driven one, so I can't comment on the 6-speed vs 5-speed. The 5-speed is nothing special - the factory clutch is crap, the factory dual-mass flywheel is expensive & can't be resurfaced, shifting is notchy and clutch pedal vague. If I really get into keeping this car for the long haul, I will have the 5-speed rebuilt to tighten everything up or swap in a 6-speed.

The Legacy's seats are not very comfortable if you're very tall or very short. The rear seats don't have enough legroom for tall people in front & in back. Gas mileage is pretty decent; I get 24-27 on the highway, ~20 mixed, and 17-18 mixed if I'm really beating on it (which I usually do).

Common problems on the Legacy's are wheel bearings and clutches. Warranty on 05-06 models for the rear wheel bearings was extended due to 100K miles for this; mine was replaced under warranty. Also the DRL's burn out the headlight bulbs regularly; an easy fix to disable them. Piston ringlands are the weak spot of the Subaru motors unfortunately. Most people, whether stock or with exhaust + tune (i.e. Stage 2), seem to do okay with the motors. But you still see a handful of reports on the forums of ringlands breaking, even at surprisingly low mileage and with no mods. These represent the minority for sure, but are a concern.

The Legacy has a wider aftermarket. There are a number of suspension options and while the turbo mounting location was unique to 05+ Legacy's, now the 08+ WRX uses the same mounting and it's not a big problem to go with an STi-style turbo. If you dropped in the VF52 turbo from the 09+ WRX (~$900), an intercooler (~$700), injectors, full exhaust and a custom tune, you'll be over 300 HP/TQ to the wheels. Sadly you'll also need a clutch with that combo, but it's a reliable and stout power number.

I mainly chose the Legacy over the speed6 because (A) I found one in my price range with several nice mods done that I liked, (B) top safety ratings from the IIHS, (C) I was having trouble finding any speed6's I wanted and (D) the higher trim level speed6's were pushing into the low-mid 20K's.

P.S. Get an 07+ Legacy - folding rear seats FTW.

I'm happy to answer any other questions about the Legacy.

As for other cars to look at, the G35 is a thought. I was shopping in your same price range 2 years ago and the only G35's at that price had high miles and were extremely common. Plus used models with the sport pack seemed impossible to find.

You could probably find an 05-06 Mitsubishi Evo for that price, but insurance will be sky high compared to the Legacy and you will have to be very wary of how the car was driven. The cars are pretty bulletproof, but given how many teenage dbags beat those cars to hell I would be concerned. A good friend of mine had an Evo VIII MR and now has an IX; great cars if they're taken care of.

As for 4 doors, manual and RWD/AWD...I think that's about it my friend. The Mazdaspeed3 isn't a bad ride and unless you are trying to clip every apex, the FWD part isn't too damning.

 

[fbrdphreak]

The 2006 spec b's (legacy gt's also) had a problem with the banjo bolt screen clogging. This would starve the turbo of oil and eventually blow it. Subaru would claim lack of maintinece was the cause and not cover it. I believe Subaru changed the turbos and some other parts afterwards, but it was enough to scare me away.

This is true, but overstated. Few people actually had problems as a result of the banjo bolt. It's about a 30 minute job to clean the screen yourself if you're worried. My car is at 70K miles and *knock on wood* no problems.

No car is free of faults like this. 05-06 GTOs have ignition cylinders that lock up and you're stranded. C5 Corvettes have seat belt and door window problems. As you mentioned, speed6's have their faults. I imagine G35's do too.

Honestly about the only performance car I've seen that doesn't have consistent problems is the Evo VIII/IX. Stout, damn near bulletproof motors. Drivetrain, electronics, chassis, interior all quality & reliable. The interior IS very basic, but nothing falls apart or breaks. I'd consider one, but the cost, the miles on the remaining cars for sale, the insurance and the boy ricer look are a bit of a turnoff.

My next sports car will be a big V8 cruiser or a Corvette. But I'm pretty set on keeping my Legacy for a few more years, until my lady gets out of school and starts earning the big bucks :twisted:

 

[fbrdphreak]

The Madza had two problems. Earlier cars had a clutch pedal problem, and mazda recalled them. However other people on Mazda forums were complaining of lost power even after multiple firmware updates. Mazda seemed disinterested in fixing it, last I heard. Maybe these issues are fixed by now, but I wasn't willing to buy a used car with big problems like those.

Oh yeah, the heat soak issue. I know there is an MS6 owner on these boards, hopefully he will chime in.

 

[Hyperlite]

I believe the 07+ SpecB also has Si-Drive?

 

[NutBucket]

Meh, Si-Drive is hardly a selling point. I don't even think the 2010 has this anymore.

 

[jlarsson]

With regards to the MS6, the lost power issue (iirc) was mostly due to the knock sensor and the lack of good quality high octane fuel in this country. (Some further information available here.). I only use 93 octane fuel, and I've experienced the power loss a few times in the 3.5 years I've owned my MS6.

Outside of that, the only other issue I've had is with the key-less entry/ignition system. The sensor for the trunk is a bit flaky at times, requiring me to actually use the key fob to unlock the trunk (instead of pushing the button on the trunk itself), minor inconvenience, I know .

 

[satyajitmenon]

Dang. Talk about "ask and ye shall receive".

Thanks for all the pointers. Guess I'll just have to test drive both and see which I prefer.

E46

I know I know.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Legacy GT's are hard to come across, especially in FL. If you make your way down to South FL, I'd be happy to take you for a test drive. And depending on the condition of the clutch, maybe even drive it (New clutch goes in weekend after next)

 

[Zap]

I have a 2007 Mazdaspeed 6 base model in Black Mica with an add-on Mazdaspeed CAI.

LIKE:
6 speed shifts really smooth compared to several other manual transmission cars I've driven.
I love how stealthy the vehicle is. No hood scoop, barely a lip on the tail, nothing that screams "ricer" or "pull me over."
AWD with snow tires are nice for our Wisconsin Winters.
Roomier than most other "similar" vehicles (turbo-4, AWD, sedan) except for the Legacy.
Great cornering ability.
Great gas mileage. I average around 23-24MPG driving like I stole it. Sustaining around 80MPH on long trips gets around 25MPG. I've gotten 30MPG on long trips with cruise control set to 65MPH.
Seat shape fits me well.
I rather like the factory stereo headunit (6CD MP3). Works really well.

DISLIKE:
Clutch can be touchy. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for decades, and when I first got this car I was stalling all the time from a stop.
Lousy acceleration from a stop compared to similar cars.
Stiff suspension can make for rough ride.
No folding rear seats due to extra structural support in the Speed version of the 6.
Seat cushion a bit hard.
Factory Bose free-air subwoofer in the deck puts out almost zero noise. Not a problem with my unit, but with the design or factory equalization because other ones at the dealer sounded just as lousy. At least it's better than the Mazdaspeed 3 factory subwoofer, which is a 3" (yes three inch) driver in a tiny box under the passenger seat. Most people don't know that it exists since it is not capable of making itself heard or felt.
I wish the factory stereo had some kind of standard AUX input, or USB, or whatever. Only option was for an iPod connector. No, I'm not going to buy an iPod just to use it in my car.

PROBLEMS I'VE EXPERIENCED:
I've gotten a lot of CELs, all from two sources. One comes back as the fuel filler door not sealed, which is BS. Had it a few times in a few month period and then problem went away. Another is some intake code. I've been getting that lately after my car gets wet such as driving through puddles or getting the car washed. It might be that I need a new air filter - I have a CAI that has the bare filter just in front of the driver wheel well and sitting really low. Didn't start doing this until recent months.
The factory Bose subwoofer now pops a lot, but I think it is because I fiddled with it using someone's homemade EQ/booster trying to boost the output.
There's a "rattle" that I seem to feel through the steering which developed this past year.

OTHER THOUGHTS:
In retrospect maybe I should have gotten the higher model to get the nicer interior.
I keep having the feeling that it would have much better performance if it were lighter in weight.
I wish the Cherry Mica color was available for the 2007 model (it was only 2006) because it looks HAWT!
I wish the factory speakers were better. Bose is so... meh. Sounds decent, but not that spectacular.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

have a look at the '08 - '09 Saab 9-3 Aero XWD. A bit more than $18K but another great car in the same league as those you are looking at.

The Mazdaspeed 6 has virtually zero factory support. cars are treated like bastard children at the dealers and have way too many issues.

 

[Tom]

Have you considered a Pontiac G8 or GTO ?

 

[fbrdphreak]

Have you considered a Pontiac G8 or GTO ?

G8 GT is automatic only and even used are difficult to find in the low $20K's. G8 GXP has 6-speed option, but are even more expensive. GTO does not have 4 doors and while the rear is spacious, trunk is T.I.N.Y.

 

[overst33r]

BMW 3, Mustang GT, GTO, CTS-V, 06 M3 is not in your price range yet.

Friend of mine had a Legacy GT. Very reliable even with a backyard stage 2 tune which put him around 250whp. The turbo lag was very noticable stock, and it was unacceptable after the tune, but it was a daily so he didn't care. I drove the car at an AutoX and was all over the place due to the turbo lag.

As a daily, it was fantastic. Did about 25mpg on the hwy and around 20mpg in the city. With the tune. Stock it was similar.

If you want a family hauler/AWD, it's tough to beat. I don't know how it compares to the MS6.

Personally I prefer a more sports car feel which is why I would choose one of the first four cars I mentioned. If you want luxury/handling, you get the 3er, if you want muscle you get the GTO or Mustang (they handle pretty good with simple mods). If you want both, you get the CTS-V (handling is not its strong suit).

If the M3 was in your price range, I would choose that since its the whole package and it looks the best by far.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Friend of mine had a Legacy GT. Very reliable even with a backyard stage 2 tune which put him around 250whp. The turbo lag was very noticable stock, and it was unacceptable after the tune, but it was a daily so he didn't care. I drove the car at an AutoX and was all over the place due to the turbo lag.

The turbo itself isn't very laggy, but the Subaru motors just don't move much air below 2500rpm. IMO the head design & cams aren't that great, plus the motor is pretty low compression. Mazda's definitely have the upper advantage there - the direct injection and fast spooling turbo are a nice combination.

It takes a bit of finesse to launch the car with enough clutch slip + throttle to spool up the turbo a bit and take off from a stop, without smoking the clutch.

 

[liquidblue]

Just to add to Zap's comments... I also have one, but from 06 so I'll add a bit of input (I agree with most of his points). There was a TSB for the clutch for the '06 models. They basically put some of the 07 transmission parts on there. I didn't get this done though. At first it was difficult not stalling, but now I'm used to it and it would be up to you whether you'd want to get this TSB, provided it's still under warranty. Rear seats do fold, just gotta do some small modification. About the audio - I'm not an audiophile so I've got no complaints. Regarding the CEL, of course you'll get one with the CAI. The filter sits pretty low on the wheel well. The liner has open slots and if it rains plenty of water goes in there and can get sucked up to the MAF sensor. There are alternatives out there. On Mazda6 forums you can find plenty of info about this.
I've been on the Mazda forums long enough to list a few of the most common issues you should look out for if you're planning on getting one. One is the smokey turbo (I had one). Drive the car for a good 15-20 minutes a bit hard and then letting the car idle for another 10-20 minutes. If there's no huge cloud of smoke from the tailpipe, you're good, if not, have them replace the turbo and seals. The transfer case has been known to leak as well as the rear differential seals. I had that replaced before my warranty ran out about a month ago. If you plan on modding, beware as parts are expensive as one guy said since this car was only produced for two years.
Last thing, if you do decide to get one try to get an 06 model since their warranty gets 50K whereas the 07 only up to 36k.

 

[Hyperlite]

BMW 3, Mustang GT, GTO, CTS-V, 06 M3 is not in your price range yet.

Friend of mine had a Legacy GT. Very reliable even with a backyard stage 2 tune which put him around 250whp. The turbo lag was very noticable stock, and it was unacceptable after the tune, but it was a daily so he didn't care. I drove the car at an AutoX and was all over the place due to the turbo lag.

As a daily, it was fantastic. Did about 25mpg on the hwy and around 20mpg in the city. With the tune. Stock it was similar.

If you want a family hauler/AWD, it's tough to beat. I don't know how it compares to the MS6.

Personally I prefer a more sports car feel which is why I would choose one of the first four cars I mentioned. If you want luxury/handling, you get the 3er, if you want muscle you get the GTO or Mustang (they handle pretty good with simple mods). If you want both, you get the CTS-V (handling is not its strong suit).

If the M3 was in your price range, I would choose that since its the whole package and it looks the best by far.

err, bad tune? i've looked at several logged tunes on legacyGT.com with guys running 18-20psi on stock turbo, and 16psi is usually hit by ~2400rpm...


i don't know, maybe i don't know what i'm talking about

 

[Zap]

Last thing, if you do decide to get one try to get an 06 model since their warranty gets 50K whereas the 07 only up to 36k.

Heh, I'm around 54k miles already on my 2007.

 

[fbrdphreak]

err, bad tune? i've looked at several logged tunes on legacyGT.com with guys running 18-20psi on stock turbo, and 16psi is usually hit by ~2400rpm...


i don't know, maybe i don't know what i'm talking about

As I said, the engine just doesn't flow much air below 2500rpm, plus it's a low compression motor. And a Stage 2 setup just shines a big light on the lack of off-boost power the motor has, as it just turns up the boost. So whereas a stock tune would more subtly build boost and peak far lower, a stage 2 tune will go from little boost to quite a bit more than stock once the turbo is spooled. It feels like an on-off switch, because instead of going from say 0-10 psi as the turbo spools up, you go from 0-14. Then as the engine gets near 4K the boost peaks, as does your torque, and tapers down after 4500-5000.

 

[sdifox]

I am probably off base, but I thought the Mazdaspeed6 awd setup is front biased while the subie is more rear biased?

 

[fbrdphreak]

I am probably off base, but I thought the Mazdaspeed6 awd setup is front biased while the subie is more rear biased?

Looks like MS6 varies from 100% front to 50/50. Legacy GT manual transmission is 50/50 and does not change bias. LGT's have an open front diff, which I expect the same for the MS6 but I'm not sure.

 

[Zap]

Looks like MS6 varies from 100% front to 50/50.

This is my understanding of it as well.

Sometimes under hard acceleration from a stop or over some kind of bump/ridge in the roadway the front tires will chirp. I'm pretty sure the rear tires are contributing, though, because in a Mazda 3s I can make a LOT of noise from the front tires without as much forward momentum. :awe: