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Discussion Maybe we should ban religion all together

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pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
7,672
2,834
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Again lumping all "religious" people together!
Religious people or Christians do not depend on non-believers or agnostics or secularists to maintain some sort of order and peace! That is wishful thinking on your part or at worse it is you saying you need me, thinking on your part!
I know of plenty of religious people and Christians who do not get caught up in the thinking that somehow because they are religious or call themselves Christian they believe as well they should that they are no better or worse than you are and they behave accordingly!
We are talking about a small fringe element of the religious or Christians who actually believe they are better...…..to lump all religious or Christians together is just plain wrong! As it is to lump all atheist and secularists and agnostics together!
Yes, but you miss the point I was making - its that 'fringe element' who are the ones who have more children than anyone else (and who do most to prevent anyone 'defecting' from the group). "Moderate" religious believers aren't growing in numbers the same way.

It's also that 'fringe' element who are the ones who most noisily complain about secularism and gleefully predict the non-believers will die out. They seems to imagine that once that happens the religious future will only feature _their_ particular religion.

The real conflict isn't between different religions, or shouldn't be, it should be between the head-banging crazy people and those who value peace.
 
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pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
7,672
2,834
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Communism killed more people in 100 years than all the major religions did in 2000.
Nationalism's probably killed more than either. Indeed, everywhere communism or fascism has taken power, it's usually been a consequence of, and reaction to, nationalism and/or imperialism.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
17,277
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Nationalism's probably killed more than either. Indeed, everywhere communism or fascism has taken power, it's usually been a consequence of, and reaction to, nationalism and/or imperialism.


Theists like to pretend that communist regimes like Stalinist Russia were religion free, but that just highlights their proclivity to cherry pick history. Stalin wanted people worshiping him, and had no problem bringing in the Orthodox church to help with waning morale when things got really bad.

I tend to agree on the nationalism root. It will use religion as a vehicle, corrupting it in the process, and that vehicle runs on blood. One of the main reasons I advocate a firm separation between church and state is that is ensures the sanctity and credibility of both. Together, no one is happy except the fundies and the government starts to go downhill. That leads to 'God loves my country more' stuff and that's trouble no matter the nationality.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,219
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-snip-

So a prestige Catholic school ends up producing the plotters and operators of an Islamic national coup. In fact the 2nd in command of the coup was one of the top 10 students in the entire country for his age group.

Go figure.
I'm reminded of an episode when I was in high school in Los Angeles. There was one student a sort of smart aleck intellectual who seriously tried to instigate a take over of the student government using parliamentary tactics. The plan was to commandeer using Roberts Rules of Order. He had it all worked out. I guess no one knew about this but a small kind of clique who knew him, male kids for the most part, or maybe totally, who were intellectuals and kind of on the periphery socially. It never got off the ground, as I recall. But he was serious. I suppose the school administration just stepped in and put the kabosh on it. However, there were no guns, no explosives, no weapons involved whatsoever. Even so, I think the motivations were similar to what drives people to launch a coup attempt. The guy's last name escapes me right now. It's there in my mind somewhere but for some reason I almost always draw a blank when I try to think of it!
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
7,672
2,834
136
Theists like to pretend that communist regimes like Stalinist Russia were religion free, but that just highlights their proclivity to cherry pick history. Stalin wanted people worshiping him, and had no problem bringing in the Orthodox church to help with waning morale when things got really bad.

I tend to agree on the nationalism root. It will use religion as a vehicle, corrupting it in the process, and that vehicle runs on blood. One of the main reasons I advocate a firm separation between church and state is that is ensures the sanctity and credibility of both. Together, no one is happy except the fundies and the government starts to go downhill. That leads to 'God loves my country more' stuff and that's trouble no matter the nationality.

I don't disagree with that, though my point was more that when you look at how fascist or communist regimes have come to power, you almost invariably see they came about after dislocation or chaos caused by imperialism. The Vietnamese, for example, ended up embracing communism in good part because the communists were the only force to consistently oppose French imperialism. Communism in China gained great prestige from opposing Japanese imperialism (in a way that the KMT did not), and of course the Bolsheviks took power in Russia largely as a concequence of WW1. Likeiwse with the Nazis coming to power in Germany.

I mean, it's not the _only_ causal factor, but when nations feel humiliated by the actions of foreign powers, bad things tend to happen (see also Putin's rise).

On the whole I think religion is a runner-up when it comes to causing chaos and conflict. It's something people resort to when everything else is going wrong (it rarely helps matters, but it does't seem to me that it's usually the start of the problem).
 
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