Maybe we don't need any congressional hearings on Toyota

[Craig234]

Below is a column with a reminder of the effects of the 'corporations can spend unlimited money on political ads' ruling.

Even with the laws before the ruling, Toyota had donated to over 40% of lawmakers on the committees that held the hearings, spent another million on things like PACs, another million on connected non-profits.

Any lawmaker in the future who says 'it's in the interest of the people to add protection for the consumer' faces the unlimited spending power of the corporation to defeat him in retaliation.

As the few most pro-public lawmakers are targetted for defeat and removed, we can find Congress doing even less to represent the public interest - just as the regulatory agencies under Bush viewed themselves as working for the industries they oversaw, more than the public. Toyota might not be the best example of where Congress needed to add regulation, but it could have been - the same applies to, say, cigarettes.

We need to defeat that ruling. I'm not sure ow without a constitutional amendment but there are some legislative measures Democrats will try to pass that will reduce the impact for now.

The congressional hearings where Toyota admitted they haven't found the problem yet were the first I heard that, after I'd seen full page ads saying how hard they were fixing all the cars.

Next time, lawmakers might listen more to Toyota asking for laws letting them hide the problem from the public. Many people don't appreciate the insidious effect yet IMO, but at least 80% oppose the ruling.

Unfortunately, those numbers tend to shrink over time. When 'the fairness doctrine' was abolished, a large majority opposed that; Congress strongly pass its return, repeatedly. Now, it's largely forgotten.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/02/25-5

 

[soccerballtux]

eh, Toyota's cars > GM's cars IMO. So until that changes, I don't care if they're lobbying. It's not fair that they're getting jumped on like this anyhow.

 

[XZeroII]

eh, Toyota's cars > GM's cars IMO. So until that changes, I don't care if they're lobbying. It's not fair that they're getting jumped on like this anyhow.

Seriously? Their cars are accelerating out of control. There are thousands of reports of this. Evidence shows that Toyota has known about this and done nothing for years. In fact, the evidence shows that they intentionally kept quiet about this and paid off people in order to hide it.

And you think that it's not fair that they are getting "jumped on"? What are you waiting for? Them to start driving around in a van shooting people in the streets?

I understand that vehicles can have problems. They are very complex and things happen. But when a company intentionally hides the fact that their product is killing people I lose all respect for them. I have no plans to buy a Toyota, ever. It's not because their quality may be shoddy, but because their corporate culture seems to indicate that they don't care if I live or die as long as they are #1. Sure, that may be true for a lot of other companies out there, but Toyota has proven it to me.

 

[UberNeuman]

Toyota has addressed the problem with their latest AD...

 

[Rainsford]

I don't think hearings will be necessary, Toyota is going to feel things where it really hurts them...their wallet. These problems dwarf those faced by even the most unreliable of manufacturers Toyota has been grinding into dust lately. Toyota's entire premise is that they are a safe, reliable car manufacturer...and that image has taken an enormous body blow. And quite honestly, without it, they have nothing left to entice consumers.

And they know it too, thus the "we're so sorry" commercials they're playing on TV all the time. Which, instead of inspiring confidence, is probably having quite the opposite effect. After all, if they're spending millions of dollars to TELL us how safe their cars are now, what does that suggest about how good they really are?

What's going to happen to Toyota will, IMHO, be worse than anything the government could do to them.

 

[Craig234]

I don't think hearings will be necessary, Toyota is going to feel things where it really hurts them...their wallet. These problems dwarf those faced by even the most unreliable of manufacturers Toyota has been grinding into dust lately. Toyota's entire premise is that they are a safe, reliable car manufacturer...and that image has taken an enormous body blow. And quite honestly, without it, they have nothing left to entice consumers.

And they know it too, thus the "we're so sorry" commercials they're playing on TV all the time. Which, instead of inspiring confidence, is probably having quite the opposite effect. After all, if they're spending millions of dollars to TELL us how safe their cars are now, what does that suggest about how good they really are?

What's going to happen to Toyota will, IMHO, be worse than anything the government could do to them.

I expect some people to miss the point, but I'm very surprised to see you miss it.

Are you saying the people don't need any democratic government representing their interests as congressional hearings do to investigate, expose, and legislate remedies?

Every issue in society should just get dealt with magically, and it'll be fine?

The point is that the process of democracy is destroyed by the court decision allowing corporations to use money to threaten politicians - and defeat the ones who stand up for the people.

 

[cubby1223]

Are you saying the people don't need any democratic government representing their interests as congressional hearings do to investigate, expose, and legislate remedies?

Every issue in society should just get dealt with magically, and it'll be fine?

Pretty much the answer is YES!

Keep giving the government more and more power and authority, eventually someone will come along and really abuse it. This little spat with Toyota is not worth the alternative of the government assuming more powers.

 

[cubby1223]

Maybe I still don't quite "get it".

What is the difference between a corporation donating to a campaign fund, with an individual who works for a corporation donating to a campaign fund?

Toyota donates to campaign funds. The individual people who run Toyota donate to campaign funds. Why would one be declared legal, and the other illegal?

 

[Ozoned]

It isn't like we don't already have 6 different government agencies with tens of thousands of employees that are already mandated to take care of this shit behind the scenes.

 

[Craig234]

Maybe I still don't quite "get it".

What is the difference between a corporation donating to a campaign fund, with an individual who works for a corporation donating to a campaign fund?

Toyota donates to campaign funds. The individual people who run Toyota donate to campaign funds. Why would one be declared legal, and the other illegal?

As has been understood almost since corporations existed, there is a *huge* difference between the massive budgets corporations have - their function is to accumulate wealth - and private money.

Say you're a CEO, with a net worth of $50 million, of a corporation whose annual revenues are $10 billion.

That corporation, if legally allowed, which it now is,, has a far higher 'incentive' to 'invest' millions in what is effectively legalized bribery to make big benefits from controlling the government, compared to your money.

Corporations can make 100 or 1000 times their 'investment' back - but you spend far less personally.

 

[ProfJohn]

The free market at work:
"Toyota's recalls crisis is expected to help drive the company's share of the U.S. market to about 12%, its lowest level in nearly five years in February."

"Toyota may record “a double-digit drop in the automaker’s U.S. sales for February,” says The Nikkei [sub] today. The Nikkei bolsters the assessment with interviews at dealerships in the U.S.A., but knowing the Nikkei, a sales droid in northern California is not their only source."

" “Toyota was the only major automaker to suffer a double-digit sales decline in the U.S. last month. Its sales were down 15.8 percent from a year earlier, compared with the 24.4 percent and 14.6 percent growth enjoyed by Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Co..”

" Toyota Motor on Tuesday estimated that it lost about 20,000 vehicle sales in the week since it halted sales and production of some of its most popular models."

You make an unsafe product and people stop buying it, simple concept.
The decision by Toyota to ignore its problems is going to cost them billions in lost sales and probably hundreds of millions in lawsuit damages.

The long term result will be companies acting more proactive to prevent these types of problems from turning into outright disasters.


BTW No one is suggesting that congress not investigate Toyota and their actions here. And if congress finds that Toyota took steps to hide their problems from regulators then they should be fined hundreds of millions of dollars in order to send the proper message to companies that they can not produce an unsafe product and then lie about it to regulators.

 

[ProfJohn]

Craig, corporations have NO votes, people do have votes.

Food companies could spend billions of dollars to encourage congressmen to eliminate all food safety and the members of congress would never do so because it would be political suicide.

And why is it okay for unions to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to support political candidates, but it is not okay for corporations to do the same?

 

[drebo]

Why the hell do we need "congressional hearings" on a private company anyway?

They fucked up, they recalled their cars, they lost a shit-ton of money. Let them get on with their lives and don't waste time and money asking them to justify their actions.

Yes, they let certain problems go on way too long, but it caught up with them in the long run. They didn't do anything wrong. Let consumers decide whether or not they want to continue to buy Toyota cars and let that be the gague as to whether or not Toyota make the right decisions.

The federal government does not have a place in this matter.

 

[ProfJohn]

Why the hell do we need "congressional hearings" on a private company anyway?

They fucked up, they recalled their cars, they lost a shit-ton of money. Let them get on with their lives and don't waste time and money asking them to justify their actions.

Yes, they let certain problems go on way too long, but it caught up with them in the long run. They didn't do anything wrong. Let consumers decide whether or not they want to continue to buy Toyota cars and let that be the gague as to whether or not Toyota make the right decisions.

The federal government does not have a place in this matter.

I disagree... sorta.

I don't think we need a congressional investigation because it will turn into a bunch of people yelling at Toyota in order to gain a few minutes of TV time.

We DO need some type of investigation though. Something behind the scenes by some government acronym in order to see who know, when they know and what they did about it.

 

[RY62]

Seriously? Their cars are accelerating out of control. There are thousands of reports of this. Evidence shows that Toyota has known about this and done nothing for years. In fact, the evidence shows that they intentionally kept quiet about this and paid off people in order to hide it.

And you think that it's not fair that they are getting "jumped on"? What are you waiting for? Them to start driving around in a van shooting people in the streets?

I understand that vehicles can have problems. They are very complex and things happen. But when a company intentionally hides the fact that their product is killing people I lose all respect for them. I have no plans to buy a Toyota, ever. It's not because their quality may be shoddy, but because their corporate culture seems to indicate that they don't care if I live or die as long as they are #1. Sure, that may be true for a lot of other companies out there, but Toyota has proven it to me.

Can you provide a source for the "thousands of reports" of unintended acceleration of Toyota vehicles?

The Truth About Cars website has just started a list of 95 cars ranked in rate of unintended acceleration complaints. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tag/toyota-unintended-acceleration/
I was surprised to see which car tops the list so far. As they gather more data, the list may help to cut through the media hype and shine some light on the issue.

As for the congressional hearings, the whole thing is a joke. Basically, the CEO's of GM and Chrysler are grilling Toyota. Could the US government have a financial interest in seeing Toyota sales slump?

 

[Jaskalas]

Are you saying the people don't need any democratic government representing their interests as congressional hearings do to investigate, expose, and legislate remedies?

I don't think we need the US auto monopolies lawfully forcing their competition to sit through attacks in congressional hearings. The government owns GM, and now uses its power to savage the competition.

Monopolies for the people, eh Craig?

 

[Jiggz]

Why the hell do we need "congressional hearings" on a private company anyway?

They fucked up, they recalled their cars, they lost a shit-ton of money. Let them get on with their lives and don't waste time and money asking them to justify their actions.

Yes, they let certain problems go on way too long, but it caught up with them in the long run. They didn't do anything wrong. Let consumers decide whether or not they want to continue to buy Toyota cars and let that be the gague as to whether or not Toyota make the right decisions.

The federal government does not have a place in this matter.

And Toyota is number 17 on the recall list which means there are other 16 other companies above them when it comes to recall! So is congress also going to investigate this top 16 car companies? Or maybe not because they don't exactly compete with the Big 3.

 

[XZeroII]

Can you provide a source for the "thousands of reports" of unintended acceleration of Toyota vehicles?

The Truth About Cars website has just started a list of 95 cars ranked in rate of unintended acceleration complaints. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/tag/toyota-unintended-acceleration/
I was surprised to see which car tops the list so far. As they gather more data, the list may help to cut through the media hype and shine some light on the issue.

As for the congressional hearings, the whole thing is a joke. Basically, the CEO's of GM and Chrysler are grilling Toyota. Could the US government have a financial interest in seeing Toyota sales slump?

I've seen it in a few sources, but here's one that I was able to drag back up.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35520628

They say,
"NHTSA was slow to respond to 2,600 complaints of sudden unintended acceleration from 2000 to 2010"

 

[RY62]

I've seen it in a few sources, but here's one that I was able to drag back up.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35520628

They say,
"NHTSA was slow to respond to 2,600 complaints of sudden unintended acceleration from 2000 to 2010"

Sounds like that 2600 number may include unintended acceleration complaints for all vehicles. This isn't a problem which is exclusive to Toyota vehicles, even if the media is making it seem so.

 

[waggy]

I don't think we need the US auto monopolies lawfully forcing their competition to sit through attacks in congressional hearings. The government owns GM, and now uses its power to savage the competition.

Monopolies for the people, eh Craig?

you are a idiot if you think this is because the Government took over GM.

 

[XZeroII]

Sounds like that 2600 number may include unintended acceleration complaints for all vehicles. This isn't a problem which is exclusive to Toyota vehicles, even if the media is making it seem so.

The paragraph before and after that quote referred specifically to Toyota. While you may be right, it's not likely.

 

[RY62]

The paragraph before and after that quote referred specifically to Toyota. While you may be right, it's not likely.

Edmunds has sifted thrugh the NHTSA complaints.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02...ion-complaints-edmundscom-analysis-shows.html

The Toyota brand has the highest number of such complaints of any brand owned by the Big Six with 929 complaints. Ford brand follows with 300 complaints. Toyota's Lexus ranks third with 186 complaints.

In an earlier analysis, Edmunds.com showed that Toyota had fewer consumer complaints in total filed with NHTSA than most automakers. Toyota ranked 17th of 20 automakers in the number of complaints filed with NHTSA over the past decade versus share of market. In that analysis, Toyota had 9.1 percent of the complaints from 2001 through 2010. During this period, the company sold 13.5 percent of all new cars in the United States.

Toyota has the highest number of complaints but it's not in the thousands and, when taken as a percentage of total units sold, they aren't the worst or even far out of line with other makes.

I'm not trying to let Toyota off the hook, I'm just pointing out that there seems to be an agenda behind the heat they are taking. Why are we not hearing about the same issue from other car makers?

 

[CallMeJoe]

When one manufacturer has more "unintended acceleration" complaints than all other major manufacturers combined, and when there is apparent evidence of that manufacturer attempting to finesse the recall process to protect corporate profits, it is reasonable to expect an investigation.

As regards the Congressional hearings, when have you ever known a legislator to pass up an opportunity get free microphone and/or camera time?

 

[XZeroII]

Edmunds has sifted thrugh the NHTSA complaints.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02...ion-complaints-edmundscom-analysis-shows.html

The Toyota brand has the highest number of such complaints of any brand owned by the Big Six with 929 complaints. Ford brand follows with 300 complaints. Toyota's Lexus ranks third with 186 complaints.

In an earlier analysis, Edmunds.com showed that Toyota had fewer consumer complaints in total filed with NHTSA than most automakers. Toyota ranked 17th of 20 automakers in the number of complaints filed with NHTSA over the past decade versus share of market. In that analysis, Toyota had 9.1 percent of the complaints from 2001 through 2010. During this period, the company sold 13.5 percent of all new cars in the United States.

Toyota has the highest number of complaints but it's not in the thousands and, when taken as a percentage of total units sold, they aren't the worst or even far out of line with other makes.

I'm not trying to let Toyota off the hook, I'm just pointing out that there seems to be an agenda behind the heat they are taking. Why are we not hearing about the same issue from other car makers?

My guess is it's because people are dying. I don't see why congress had to get involved, but the NHTSA should have been more attentive to this. The high media attention is a good thing because this is a serious issue and people should know that if they buy a Toyota that they could run into these issues.

 

[heyheybooboo]

I've seen it in a few sources, but here's one that I was able to drag back up.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35520628

They say,
"NHTSA was slow to respond to 2,600 complaints of sudden unintended acceleration from 2000 to 2010"

The issue (which is 'LOL' crazy and largely ignored) is that complaints on unintended acceleration have been steadily rising over the last decade. It can happen with any auto-maker but Toyota seems to be at the top of the heap.

Reports (mostly rumahs) are now circulating that former NHTSA employees (in the case of Toyota 'names have been named': Christopher Santucci) working for auto manufacturers 'conspired' with regulators to limit the scope of investigations into unintended acceleration.

'Conspired' may be too strong --- but not by much





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