Matt Taibbi: How the Democrats destroyed their very own finance reform bill

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Found below is the entirely compelling story of how the U.S. Democratic Party played lip service to Main Street while actually servicing Wall Street. Or at least that's how Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi writes it. It's a long read from an even longer article, but well worth it.

Wall Street's Big Win

It started with Senate rookie Scott Brown, who demanded major changes to Merkley-Levin on behalf of big Massachusetts banks in exchange for his vote. But Senate sources I talked to insist that Chris Dodd, the powerful chair of the Senate Banking Committee, was just using Brown as a cover to gut the Volcker rule. "It became far more than accommodating the Massachusetts banks," says one high-*ranking Senate aide. "It became a ruse for Treasury trying to get as far as they could, with Dodd's help."

From the start, Dodd had been opposed to the ban on proprietary trading. "Hey, I would gladly dump the Volcker rule," he told industry lobbyists. "But I can't, because of the pressure I'm getting from the left." Now, with Brown pressing for concessions, Dodd agreed to let Merkley-Levin be spattered with a wave of loopholes.

If you can imagine a 4,000-pound lizard pretending to cower before a Cub Scout clutching a lollipop, then you've grasped the basic dynamic of a grizzled legislative titan like Dodd caving into Brown, the cheery GOP newbie with the Pez-*dispenser face.

First, in what amounted to an open handout to the financial interests represented by Brown, insurers, mutual funds and trusts were exempted from the Merkley-Levin ban. Then, with the floodgates officially open, every financial company in America was granted a massive loophole – one that allowed them to skirt the ban on risky gambling by investing a designated percentage of their holdings in hedge funds and private-equity companies.

The common justification for this loophole, known as the de minimis exemption, was that banks need it to retain their "traditional businesses" and remain competitive against hedge funds. In other words, Congress must allow banks to act like hedge funds because otherwise they'd be unable to compete with hedge funds in the hedge-fund business. With the introduction of the de minimis exemption, Merkley-Levin went from being an absolute ban on federally insured banks engaging in high-risk speculation to a feeble, half-assed restriction that will be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.

The driving force behind the exemption was not Scott Brown, but the Obama administration itself. By all accounts, Geithner lobbied hard on the issue. "Treasury's official position went from opposed to supportive," one aide told reporters. "They may have even overshot Brown's desires by a bit."

Throughout the negotiations over the bill, in fact, Geithner acted almost like a liaison to the financial industry, pushing for Wall Street-friendly changes on everything from bailouts (his initial proposal *allowed the White House to unilaterally fork over taxpayer money to banks in unlimited amounts) to high-risk investments (he fought to let megabanks hold on to their derivatives desks).

Geithner went all out for the de minimis exemption; one Senate aide was told flatly by "those who are in charge of counting noses" that the proposal was not subject to negotiation. This was the horse-head-in-the-bed moment of the Dodd-Frank bill – the offer that couldn't be refused. "We were told that there needed to be de minimis or there would be no bill," the aide says.

When Merkley first got the news about the exemption, he tried to keep it small. "I was hoping to limit it to one percent" of a company's tangible equity, he says. "The night before the conference, Geithner was pushing for two percent. In the end, it got even worse – it was three percent." When Merkley tried to put a specific dollar limit of $250 million on high-risk gambling, Geithner shot him down. "He didn't want the sub-cap, and we lost," Merkley says.

Still, during the last round of negotiations, Merkley and Levin managed to pare back some of the worst of the exemptions. In one victory, they eliminated a proposal by Geithner that would have allowed banks to make unlimited trades "in facilitation of customer relations" – a loophole so laughably broad that it would cover, in the words of one Senate aide, "pretty much everything" that banks wanted to do. By June 25th, when the bill headed to its final meeting of the conference committee, it looked like Merkley and Levin would *finally get their vote.

But that was before the senator from Wall Street showed up. In the final hours of negotiations, a congressional delegation from New York, led by Sen. Chuck Schumer, decided to take one last run at gutting the Volcker rule. It was as though someone had sent the scrubs off the court and called in the varsity.

Schumer, a platitudinous champion of liberal social *issues, moonlights as a pillbox-hat bellhop to Wall Street on economic matters. The self-*aggrandizing New Yorker has not only fought to keep taxes low on hedge-fund billionaires, he got up onstage with Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein at a Democratic fundraiser in 2006 and performed "nostalgic furniture-store jingles."

This bears repeating: The person in whose hands America had placed its hopes for finance reform was someone who once sang furniture jingles onstage with Lloyd Blankfein.

Now, as the bill headed into final negotiations, the Schumer coalition suddenly decided that the de minimis exemption for banks simply wasn't big enough. In a neat trick, Schumer's crew agreed to keep the exemption at three percent – but they raised the limit dramatically by making it three percent of something else.

Instead of being pegged to a bank's "tangible equity," the exemption would now be calculated based on a financial firm's "Tier 1" capital – a far bigger pool of money that includes a bank's common shares and deferred-tax assets instead of just preferred shares. In real terms, banks could now put up to 40 percent more into high-risk investments. "It was almost double what Geithner was talking about the night before," says Merkley. "For Bank of America alone, it comes to $6 billion."

Schumer himself entered the change in the Senate version of the bill – and then asked the House to sign off on it 15 minutes later. Rep. Paul Kanjorski of Pennsylvania, who had worked hard on the Volcker rule, tried to get a vote to block the change. But Barney Frank laid into him. "You had plenty of time with this," Frank barked. "You knew what was coming – siddown."

Thus the Merkley-Levin across-the-board ban on risky proprietary trading became a partial ban in which insurers, mutual funds and trusts are completely exempt, and banks can still gamble three percent of their holdings. In practice, it will be up to future regulators to define how that limit will be calculated – and one can only imagine how far banks like Goldman Sachs will manage to stretch the loopholes in what's left of the Volcker rule. "It's not a total nothing burger," sighs one aide. "But, by the end, it didn't change a whole lot."

If the Volcker rule was a regulatory Godzilla threatening to stomp out Wall Street's self-serving investments, the proposal to shut down derivatives was nothing short of a planet-smashing asteroid headed straight at the heart of the financial industry's most reckless abuses. The key battle involved the so-called "Lincoln rule," put forward by Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas, which would have forced big banks to spin off their derivatives desks in the same way the Volcker rule would have forced them to give up proprietary trading.

Banks would have to make a choice: Either forgo access to the cheap cash of the Federal Reserve, or give up gambling with dangerous instruments like credit-default swaps. Banks, in short, would have to go back to making money the old-fashioned way – making smart loans, underwriting new businesses, earning simple fees on customer trades. No more leveraged gambling on whacked-out acid-trip derivatives deals, no more walking around with torches and taking out fire insurance on other people's houses, no more running up huge markers on the taxpayer's dime.

This, obviously, could not be permitted. Thanks to Clinton-era deregulation, the market for derivatives is now 100 times larger than the federal budget, and five of the country's biggest banks control more than 90 percent of the business. So the leadership of both parties pulled out all the stops to ensure that the Lincoln rule would be Swiss-cheesed to death before it ever saw the light of day.

The effort began with an extraordinary scene on the floor of the Senate – one that testifies to the nearly unanimous respect that senators hold for the human loophole machine known as Chris Dodd. In late May, the week the Senate voted on its version of the bill, Dodd came up with a hastily composed, five-page substitute to the Lincoln rule that would create a "financial stability" council with the power to unilaterally kill the rule.

Faced with opposition from members of his own party, Dodd agreed to withdraw his substitute two days before the Senate vote – but given his track record of legislative maneuvering on behalf of big banks, his fellow Democrats weren't about to take him at his word. A group of senators from Dodd's own party – including Maria Cantwell of Washington – arranged to stay on the Senate floor in shifts, ensuring that there would be someone there to object in case Dodd tried to push his substitute through *during one of those quiet, empty-hall, C-SPAN moments when no one was looking.

The fact that a group of Democrats had to come up with a scheme to prevent one of their own leaders from dropping a *roofie in their legislative drinks pretty much sums up the state of affairs in Congress. "Yeah, that's the way it went down," says a Senate aide familiar with the Dodd Watch maneuver.

With Dodd unable to introduce his plan to gut the Lincoln rule, the measure actually passed in the Senate, to the extreme surprise of almost everyone on the Hill. This was a rare example of the Senate leadership not just allowing a vote on a financial reform guaranteed to cost major campaign contributors billions of dollars, but actually passing it.

But the ink was barely dry on the Senate bill before a full-blown mobilization against the Lincoln rule was under way. Just days after the Senate vote, Barney Frank came out and voiced opposition to the rule, saying it "goes too far." He trotted out Wall Street's lame, catchall justification for unfettered speculation: Banks need derivatives to balance their portfolios and "hedge their own risk."

Not long after, a group of 43 conservative House Democrats calling themselves the "New *Democrat Coalition" refused to support the reform bill unless the toughest part of the Lincoln rule – section 716 – was gutted. "They were threatening to vote against the legislation unless accommodations were made for the banks, and the biggest accommodation was watering down 716," says Michael Greenberger, a Clinton-era *financial regulator involved in the talks.

It seemed like every Democrat who mattered was against 716: Dodd, Frank, the New Democrats, the Treasury department, the influential FDIC chief Sheila Bair, even Paul Volcker. Schumer and other New Yorkers lobbied mightily against it, arguing that it would be a drain on the income of Wall Street banks; New York mayor *Michael Bloomberg traveled to Washington specifically to lobby against the Lincoln rule.

But the crowd had turned against Wall Street, and the populist scrubs seemed like they were about to win big.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
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Matt Taibbi is a compelling story teller, but doesn't know worth a damn anything about finance. The fact is, banks worldwide - not just here - use derivatives for risk management and portfolio smoothing. The economy blew up in 2008 because it was a bubble, that admittedly popped much later than anyone with any common sense thought it would take, but it did nevertheless.

No, the real culprit in this whole sorry ass economic saga of the past 5+ years really is cheap money. Exceptionally low rates (Fed Funds should never be below 2% has always been my view) are what cause investors to use leverage to generate reasonable returns, are what cause bankers to financially engineer products like synthetic CDOs, and ordinary people to take out $700k mortgages with $50k of annual family income. Cheap money makes people greedy and stupid. And stupidity always pays a price in the end.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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0
Well worth the time to read in full, thanks for posting.

I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking to have a cheery Friday afternoon however.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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173
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Good read.

Waiting to see responses from our Dem members here.

Fern
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
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Good read.

Waiting to see responses from our Dem members here.

Fern

My comment is as follows. I'm sure republicans like to read stories like this because they seem to make democrats the culprit. But the real problem that events like this point to is that corporate America has too much sway in our government. It also points to the fact that "Big Government" is not the problem. Indeed, the issue here is the failure of the government to regulate enough. Accordingly, this kind of story doesn't work well as a partisan talking point for the GOP. The real issue here is that Wall Street has bought and paid for enough elected officials on both sides of the isle such that our Congress can no longer serve the broader public interest effectively.

So when you put the question out to "dems" - implicitly framing this as a partisan issue - what you really should be asking is what are we, as Americans, going to do to promote ethics in our government and to eliminate the influence of monied interests? So Fern, the question is back on you, what shall we do?

- wolf
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,431
6,089
126
I am waiting for Republicans to ban corporate donations to their members as proof they represent the people.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
My comment is as follows. I'm sure republicans like to read stories like this because they seem to make democrats the culprit. But the real problem that events like this point to is that corporate America has too much sway in our government. It also points to the fact that "Big Government" is not the problem. Indeed, the issue here is the failure of the government to regulate enough. Accordingly, this kind of story doesn't work well as a partisan talking point for the GOP. The real issue here is that Wall Street has bought and paid for enough elected officials on both sides of the isle such that our Congress can no longer serve the broader public interest effectively.

So when you put the question out to "dems" - implicitly framing this as a partisan issue - what you really should be asking is what are we, as Americans, going to do to promote ethics in our government and to eliminate the influence of monied interests? So Fern, the question is back on you, what shall we do?

- wolf

We have members here that are unwavering in their support of the Dem Party and are always apologizing things away. I won't name them as they haven't yet posted in this thread, so to do so could be considered a 'call-out'. I have someone specific in mind. That was he intent behind my remark you liberally interpreted.

And "Big Government" doesn't work, in part because of the type of systemic failure illustrated here.

Nor do I see any basis for the argument that poor execution of regulatory power justifies additional regulatory power. Similarly, I suspect when details of the oil spill emerge we will see that exisiting regulations were likely sufficient, however the government agency responsible for enforcement was incompetent. I oppose awarding incompetence with additional power and reponsibility.

Were I so inclined, I think this makes a wonderful partisan talking point for the GOP. Everyone believes that Big banks/Wall Street (with Freddie/fannie) primarily caused our economic problems. Now we see the Dems are unable to do anything about it, so give somebody else a chance.

Fern
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Ok Fern, I'll be your token dem.

Its somewhat in the way blind men try to look at the elephants. The answer is in a different place depending how we choose to look at the problem.

So we have this little problem, our economy finally melted down in 2008 because the banking and investment industry was engaged in stupid and shortsighted practices
that were formerly illegal, but when regulations were relaxed, they became legal.

After the election of 2008, the dems were firmly in charge, and Dodd's position in the
Senate made him the go to guy in drafting a bill the address the problem. So that the meltdown causes could not ever happen ever again.

Now if it was just a simple and rational problem, writing such an effective bill and passing into law would be a simple no brainer.

But therein lies the rub, the trouble with good governance is that we leave that up to the political process. And the trouble with politics is politicians all maneuvering for
advantage and re-election. And because money is the mothers milk of politics, effective common sense is left far behind.

And of course there is another problem, we may start out with an effective bill to address all the problems, but if that bill can't get 60 votes in the Senate, it may have been a noble effort, but it does nothing.

And sadly, in terms of the law we got in the finance reform law being ineffective and worthless, I have to somewhat agree with the critics, its what we got.

But IMHO, I mainly blame the republirats, who instead of voting whats best for America, they voted on whats best for their re election chances in the mid-term elections. So they do everything to water down the bill, load it with useless amendments, and just to get a tiny bit of benefit the dems are forced to go along to get 61 votes.

And its not just finance reforms, its damn near every piece of legislation, and if we can't end this partisan politics crapola, the USA will be so wrecked, that no political party can salvage what is already turning into a basketcase.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip-
After the election of 2008, the dems were firmly in charge, and Dodd's position in the Senate made him the go to guy in drafting a bill the address the problem. So that the meltdown causes could not ever happen ever again.

The Dems took control of Congress, both House and Senate, in the 2006 elections.

I've read numerous times that before then, before 2006 when the Repubs held nominal majorites, they tried a finance reform bill and couldn't get it passed the Dems, particular Dodd & Frank. I've also read numerous times that Obama voted against it too.

Since it's a dead bill I've had trouble finding a copy of it. I'd like to see what was in it.

But IMHO, I mainly blame the republirats, who instead of voting whats best for America, they voted on whats best for their re election chances in the mid-term elections. So they do everything to water down the bill, load it with useless amendments, and just to get a tiny bit of benefit the dems are forced to go along to get 61 votes.

Are you trying to argue that this bill was watered down because of the Repubs?

Fern
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
We have members here that are unwavering in their support of the Dem Party and are always apologizing things away. I won't name them as they haven't yet posted in this thread, so to do so could be considered a 'call-out'. I have someone specific in mind. That was he intent behind my remark you liberally interpreted.

And "Big Government" doesn't work, in part because of the type of systemic failure illustrated here.

Nor do I see any basis for the argument that poor execution of regulatory power justifies additional regulatory power. Similarly, I suspect when details of the oil spill emerge we will see that exisiting regulations were likely sufficient, however the government agency responsible for enforcement was incompetent. I oppose awarding incompetence with additional power and reponsibility.

Were I so inclined, I think this makes a wonderful partisan talking point for the GOP. Everyone believes that Big banks/Wall Street (with Freddie/fannie) primarily caused our economic problems. Now we see the Dems are unable to do anything about it, so give somebody else a chance.

Fern

If you're talking about Craig, it's pretty obvious what he'd say. That "corporatist dems" are just as big sellouts to Wall Street as the GOP, and that we should vote for the "progressives."

Anyway, this was not a failure of "execution" (though the spill might have been); it was, instead, a failure to put forth ENOUGH regulation BECAUSE of undue influence from the industry to be regulated. This is not a failing of "big government." It is a failure of government to be EFFECTIVE, because it is serving some other master rather than the American people. The contra to "big government," that of limited or small government, is clearly not a remedy for the problems that this bill failed to address, because the small government philosophy is to let Wall Street do whatever the hell it wants. Trying to use the undue influence of corporations to argue AGAINST regulation is a fail. You should be arguing to end the influence, because arguing against the regulation is just giving the monied interests exactly what they want. In fact, the monied interests are arguing just that - small government - so you are arguing in favor of those very monied interests who perverted this process and this bill.

GOP talking point? Not so much. It might be useful as a partisan bash but ideologically, the entire issue is a total fail for conservatives.

- wolf
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Government has failed to execute adequate regulatory power over Wall Street/Big Banks, whether it's because government itself failed to draft effective regulations, or did not follow through on regulating is, IMO, a meaningless distinction.

(I am not a Libertarian, have never argued that we need no regulations at all, but do argue against some I find excessive, counter-productive or unnecessary.)

Without the money arising from Big Government, and provided to Wall Street/Big Banks by that Big Government, I do not believe we would've seen this situation.

IMO, what drives corporate interest in influencing Big Government, is that fact that it is Big Government in the first place. Corporations have little incentive to influence small government, other than to want it to get bigger, because it lacks the power/authority to help it much. I think to a large extent corporate influence is what made Big Government. (That and the natural propensity of government). I see them as two sides of the same coin, talk of eliminating corporate influence while maintaining Big Government is fantasy.

Also, I would add that I wouldn't care what risky crap Wall Street wants to gamble on as long as it's their money. But that's the problem, it's not. They're using Big Government's money. I tend to think that wouldn't be possible with a small(er) government.

Fern
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
IMO the main cause of the big meltdown was Fannie and Freddie, since the banks could unload their mortgages, they did not do the necessary diligence in ensuring the customer could actually pay for their loan.

Had their own money been at risk they would have had much tougher standards.

The govt created this problem by allowing lenders to sell their risky loans to the taxpayers.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
If you're talking about Craig, it's pretty obvious what he'd say. That "corporatist dems" are just as big sellouts to Wall Street as the GOP, and that we should vote for the "progressives."

Anyway, this was not a failure of "execution" (though the spill might have been); it was, instead, a failure to put forth ENOUGH regulation BECAUSE of undue influence from the industry to be regulated. This is not a failing of "big government." It is a failure of government to be EFFECTIVE, because it is serving some other master rather than the American people. The contra to "big government," that of limited or small government, is clearly not a remedy for the problems that this bill failed to address, because the small government philosophy is to let Wall Street do whatever the hell it wants. Trying to use the undue influence of corporations to argue AGAINST regulation is a fail. You should be arguing to end the influence, because arguing against the regulation is just giving the monied interests exactly what they want. In fact, the monied interests are arguing just that - small government - so you are arguing in favor of those very monied interests who perverted this process and this bill.

GOP talking point? Not so much. It might be useful as a partisan bash but ideologically, the entire issue is a total fail for conservatives.

- wolf

The federal government will NEVER be responsive to American citizens. It is too big and too far removed. Giving it more power will simply be more power given to corporations and wealthy donors.

If this is supposed to be a country with a government for the people and by the people, then government needs to be run from the bottom up, not the top down. You and I are not at the top, the wealthy are. All this talk of ethics is moot, you don't even have a say at that level. Even if the amount I paid in taxes remained exactly what it is now, I'd be far happier if I knew that all of it were going to my city, and the city decided how much it needed to give to the county, and the county decided how much to send to the state, and the state to the feds. That would make for real accountability. Top down government will always result in the top (the wealthy) ruling over everybody else at the bottom.

In my day to day life, who affects me more? The federal government or my city? I'd say my city. I use water every day. My trash gets hauled away weekly. I'm constantly driving on city and county roads. So why do cities and counties get a pittance while we send trillions of dollars to the federal government? I can go sit in a city council meeting if I'm not happy with something. When was the last time you were given a chance to speak in front of congress? Who does get to speak there? Oh that's right, the rich and powerful. You have no say in federal government, and you never will. If you think you do, you're lying to yourself.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
But the real problem that events like this point to is that corporate America has too much sway in our government.
I knew this already. And it's also why I knew this bill would SUCK SH*T. It's why they all do. Everything out of Washington now is not worth of being used as toilet paper, it's all complete rubbish because it is not for the good of those it compels; it's not good for citizens in general, it's good for those who lobby. That's it.

The whole thing is a corrupt version of what a democratic republic should be. It's an embarrassment, and the fact more people are not appalled is in itself embarrassing.

Can you imagine if the lobbyists were all kicked out on their ass, corporate donations banned, etc.?
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
The federal government will NEVER be responsive to American citizens. It is too big and too far removed. Giving it more power will simply be more power given to corporations and wealthy donors.

If this is supposed to be a country with a government for the people and by the people, then government needs to be run from the bottom up, not the top down. You and I are not at the top, the wealthy are. All this talk of ethics is moot, you don't even have a say at that level. Even if the amount I paid in taxes remained exactly what it is now, I'd be far happier if I knew that all of it were going to my city, and the city decided how much it needed to give to the county, and the county decided how much to send to the state, and the state to the feds. That would make for real accountability. Top down government will always result in the top (the wealthy) ruling over everybody else at the bottom.

In my day to day life, who affects me more? The federal government or my city? I'd say my city. I use water every day. My trash gets hauled away weekly. I'm constantly driving on city and county roads. So why do cities and counties get a pittance while we send trillions of dollars to the federal government? I can go sit in a city council meeting if I'm not happy with something. When was the last time you were given a chance to speak in front of congress? Who does get to speak there? Oh that's right, the rich and powerful. You have no say in federal government, and you never will. If you think you do, you're lying to yourself.

I think you misunderstand my position because you are caught in the big/small government dichotomy. I am not arguing that the government should have "more power." I am arguing that the influence of monied interests should be minimized so that government is more effective at whatever it does. What it should or should not involve itself in, or which layer of government should handle this issue or that, is a separate question. But before we even get to that question, it should be a given that corporations should not be buying off elected officials at the federal, state or local levels, right?

- wolf
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I think you misunderstand my position because you are caught in the big/small government dichotomy. I am not arguing that the government should have "more power." I am arguing that the influence of monied interests should be minimized so that government is more effective at whatever it does. What it should or should not involve itself in, or which layer of government should handle this issue or that, is a separate question. But before we even get to that question, it should be a given that corporations should not be buying off elected officials at the federal, state or local levels, right?

- wolf
I actually thought that was the law, but the US has some wicked loopholes, so they get around it and call it lobbying. It is awful. Gov is probably too big in the US but I do think its overt and rampant corruption as a practical matter is the biggest issue.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,431
10,328
136
I actually thought that was the law, but the US has some wicked loopholes, so they get around it and call it lobbying. It is awful. Gov is probably too big in the US but I do think its overt and rampant corruption as a practical matter is the biggest issue.

I guess I should make a macro. Public funding of elections seems to be the only way out of this crap.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I think you misunderstand my position because you are caught in the big/small government dichotomy. I am not arguing that the government should have "more power." I am arguing that the influence of monied interests should be minimized so that government is more effective at whatever it does. What it should or should not involve itself in, or which layer of government should handle this issue or that, is a separate question. But before we even get to that question, it should be a given that corporations should not be buying off elected officials at the federal, state or local levels, right?

- wolf

And you miss my point. You cannot remove money from politics. No amount of regulation or "ethics" will change that. Big government attracts big money and corruption is the name of the game. The wealthy have access to the federal government. You do not and never will.

The layers of government and their responsibilities is not a separate question. In fact it is the most important question. As power has moved away from cities and states and to the feds, power has moved from the citizen, to the corporation and the ultra wealthy. Until you understand that, you cannot fix the problem.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
And you miss my point. You cannot remove money from politics. No amount of regulation or "ethics" will change that. Big government attracts big money and corruption is the name of the game. The wealthy have access to the federal government. You do not and never will.

The layers of government and their responsibilities is not a separate question. In fact it is the most important question. As power has moved away from cities and states and to the feds, power has moved from the citizen, to the corporation and the ultra wealthy. Until you understand that, you cannot fix the problem.

If what you say in your first paragraph is correct, that there is no way to reform government, then we are screwed. Precisely because your second paragraphs fails as a solution. While state and local government may, in theory, be more responsive to individual needs, in practice it is as and likely far more corrupt than the federal government. That is in part because the activities of more localized bodies get less public scrutiny than those of the federal government, where at least we have the national press as a watchdog. But suppose some councilman in bumpfuck Egypt is awarding building contracts to his buddy? Probably no one ever even finds out.

The true irony here is that "small government" that staying out of everything, especially the regulation of business, is exactly what the corporations who are buying our elected official want. And you basically just want to give it to them. So the success of their unethical activities is seen by conservatives as "proof" that "government doesn't work" and therefore we should just give them what they want. Kind of like if I were repeatedly raping women, and law enforcement could never catch me, so the argument becomes, let's not improve law enforcement, but instead just legalize rape.

- wolf
 
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daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
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I think you misunderstand my position because you are caught in the big/small government dichotomy. I am not arguing that the government should have "more power." I am arguing that the influence of monied interests should be minimized so that government is more effective at whatever it does. What it should or should not involve itself in, or which layer of government should handle this issue or that, is a separate question. But before we even get to that question, it should be a given that corporations should not be buying off elected officials at the federal, state or local levels, right?

- wolf

Money is the ability to purchase almost any good or service you want, illegal or legal. It is so fluid that blocking its influence is almost impossible. Many people with money want protection and an advantage, they have purchased both from powerful governments for as long as governments have existed.

The Boston Tea Party was an event protesting the Government forcing us to buy tea from Britain and paying them for the honor. Your question about what should be done has been attacked by many many men over a long period of history, and I do not know of any solution beyond diluting the power any one man in government holds. Perhaps we need more representatives and senators, maybe quadruple or even tenfold as many as we have now.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
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Money is the ability to purchase almost any good or service you want, illegal or legal. It is so fluid that blocking its influence is almost impossible. Many people with money want protection and an advantage, they have purchased both from powerful governments for as long as governments have existed.

The Boston Tea Party was an event protesting the Government forcing us to buy tea from Britain and paying them for the honor. Your question about what should be done has been attacked by many many men over a long period of history, and I do not know of any solution beyond diluting the power any one man in government holds. Perhaps we need more representatives and senators, maybe quadruple or even tenfold as many as we have now.

Yeah, I keep hearing this line of reasoning, especially on this particular forum. I don't buy that nothing can be done about it. I DO agree that it is impossible to entirely eliminate it. That doesn't mean the situation cannot be improved over what it is now. I'm not talking about ideals and absolutes. I'm talking about incremental improvements.

- wolf
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
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If what you say in your first paragraph is correct, that there is no way to reform government, then we are screwed. Precisely because your second paragraphs fails as a solution. While state and local government may, in theory, be more responsive to individual needs, in practice it is as and likely far more corrupt than the federal government. That is in part because the activities of more localized bodies get less public scrutiny than those of the federal government, where at least we have the national press as a watchdog. But suppose some councilman in bumpfuck Egypt is awarding building contracts to his buddy? Probably no one ever even finds out.

The true irony here is that "small government" that stays out of everything, especially the regulation of business, is exactly what they corporations who are buying our elected official want. And you basically just want to give it to them. So the true irony is that the success of their unethical activities is seen by conservatives as "proof" that "government doesn't work" and therefore we should just give them what they want.

- wolf

Your second paragraph is not true. Corporations do not want no regulation, they want their opponents regulated, other countries imports taxed, their own inputs subsidized, and government to bail them out when they get in trouble.

The idea that local government is more corrupt than federal government is a nebulous idea. It is far more likely that one of my city councilmen is directing business towards his friends (I think it is happening), but the harm he can cause is much less then my senator causes when he is bought out. So, which is worse, very frequent small corruption, or concentrated powerful, but less likely to be corrupted. I am also much more aware of the corruption of my local politician, local reporters do look through their behavior, which is how I am aware that the recent development deals are not quite right. But, the local corruption pales in comparison to congresses attempt to require the military to buy a second engine for their new planes at a price tag in the high billions from GE (I think). None of my local politicians have enough control to be worth GEs time.

I don't know if local control would really solve the problem, but I bet a more local government would not have invaded Iraq. Maybe your right, and it would be worse, or more likely, local government just won't work effectively, almost all government seem to concentrate over time.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
And you miss my point. You cannot remove money from politics. No amount of regulation or "ethics" will change that. Big government attracts big money and corruption is the name of the game. The wealthy have access to the federal government. You do not and never will.

The layers of government and their responsibilities is not a separate question. In fact it is the most important question. As power has moved away from cities and states and to the feds, power has moved from the citizen, to the corporation and the ultra wealthy. Until you understand that, you cannot fix the problem.
This is spot-on. We cannot have a government that is into literally every facet of our lives, regulates every economic activity, literally picks winners and losers among industries and even individual companies, and expect to ever remove money from politics. Corporations and wealthy individuals simply have too much to lose, and too much to gain, to not put their money where their mouths are and support their own best interests. If we elected a 100% Tea Party Congress in November, AND they were true to their professed beliefs and reduced the federal government to its Constitutional limits, AND that survived the numerous court challenges, we still would not remove money from politics. Progressives would be spending money to return to big government, conservatives would be spending money to not return to big government. Even on non-financial issues like abortion and gay marriage we can't keep money out of the argument.

And public campaign financing would merely give the parties ultimate power to limit even our choices whilst forcing campaign money into other venues to curry favor, elect preferred candidates, and generally move society in the preferred direction.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
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And you miss my point. You cannot remove money from politics. No amount of regulation or "ethics" will change that. Big government attracts big money and corruption is the name of the game. The wealthy have access to the federal government. You do not and never will.

The layers of government and their responsibilities is not a separate question. In fact it is the most important question. As power has moved away from cities and states and to the feds, power has moved from the citizen, to the corporation and the ultra wealthy. Until you understand that, you cannot fix the problem.

Call me a cynic but decentralization of power in the way you describe really wouldn't solve the problem either, it would just change the players. Instead of lobbying your Senator or Congressman, they would be lobbying your local city officials, or county, whoever was calling the shots for the issue they are interested in affecting.

Sure you will have more access to the person being lobbied potentially, but it's still about the small vs large and since money cannot be removed from the equation we're back to square one.