Master's that weren't worth it

[Cuda1447]

I considered getting my masters in Clinical Psychology or Substance abuse Psych. After doing tons of research, I decided school was a fucking ripoff right now. The prices in many fields to get the degree are not warranted by the career earning potential. I'd love to further my education and help people in a field I'm genuinely interested in, but I also have a family to support.

Instead I decided I'd take a fraction of the money I'd use for school, and a fraction of the time to start a business of my own while working full time. Time will tell if I've made the right decision, but I don't know how people can warrant these 50k degrees unless they are in a highly specialized field like doctor, lawyer (debateable even) or something along those lines.

 

[Cuda1447]

A masters in a life science (chemistry, biology, biochem, etc.) gets you almost nothing. Many folks who have them are PhD dropouts. That is precisely why I got a BS in chemistry and didn't go on to get a masters in science. Its either get the PhD (which I did not want to do, not that I was incapable), or try to spin the BS into something worthwhile (which I did).

It constantly amazes me how many people make education decisions without understanding what opportunities those decisions are likely to make available.

I don't think people don't understand the decisions, its that they don't want to believe them. They think, hey... I'll have a masters. I'll be highly educated and I'm intelligent. Surely I will be able to land an awesome job with this.

When in reality, education has little to do with earning potential. There are TONS of people with no degree whatsoever who make a shit ton more than all these BA, MA's and even PhD's.

 

[spaceman]

the ones the shark choked in?
was it the masters?

 

[SP33Demon]

A masters in a life science (chemistry, biology, biochem, etc.) gets you almost nothing. Many folks who have them are PhD dropouts. That is precisely why I got a BS in chemistry and didn't go on to get a masters in science. Its either get the PhD (which I did not want to do, not that I was incapable), or try to spin the BS into something worthwhile (which I did).

It constantly amazes me how many people make education decisions without understanding what opportunities those decisions are likely to make available.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Based on a study last year featured in the Economist, a Master's on average will net 23% more in salary over a Bach. A PhD? 3% more.

Hell a study last week said that in this economy, the only ones not hit hard were people with Master's with double digit growth. A Bach? 5%.

Keep dreaming that your BS in chem is going to get you the job over someone with an MS, it's not.

 

[PingSpike]

I don't think people don't understand the decisions, its that they don't want to believe them. They think, hey... I'll have a masters. I'll be highly educated and I'm intelligent. Surely I will be able to land an awesome job with this.

When in reality, education has little to do with earning potential. There are TONS of people with no degree whatsoever who make a shit ton more than all these BA, MA's and even PhD's.

Its a little of both I'd say. Teachers and parents press into kids heads that they have to go to college or they're a loser, never really selling other options as an alternative. Parents perspectives are from another time when school was cheap, entry level positions more available and the glut of college educated people didn't exist. Teachers ran the academia route for the most part and just don't understand the trade or business route having never been a part of it. And the colleges? They are institutions looking to profit from you going to school there. They'll never tell you its a bad idea to get more education. That's a lot of influence from people that are supposed to know better than you all telling you to do something that has unrecoverable consequences and may well be a very stupid idea for a lot of individuals.

But once kids learn a little more about things they start in with the denial because they've trapped themselves.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Based on a study last year featured in the Economist, a Master's on average will net 23% more in salary over a Bach. A PhD? 3% more.

Depends greatly on the field.

Hell a study last week said that in this economy, the only ones not hit hard were people with Master's with double digit growth. A Bach? 5%.

Link?

Keep dreaming that your BS in chem is going to get you the job over someone with an MS, it's not.

I don't think you read his post correctly. His last line:

. That is precisely why I got a BS in chemistry and didn't go on to get a masters in science. Its either get the PhD (which I did not want to do, not that I was incapable), or try to spin the BS into something worthwhile (which I did).

In his case, he went to law school. I've heard a lot of people with advanced life science degrees (even some PhDs) have a hard time finding jobs, especially chemistry majors.

 

[SP33Demon]

Its a little of both I'd say. Teachers and parents press into kids heads that they have to go to college or they're a loser, never really selling other options as an alternative. Parents perspectives are from another time when school was cheap, entry level positions more available and the glut of college educated people didn't exist. Teachers ran the academia route for the most part and just don't understand the trade or business route having never been a part of it. And the colleges? They are institutions looking to profit from you going to school there. They'll never tell you its a bad idea to get more education. That's a lot of influence from people that are supposed to know better than you all telling you to do something that has unrecoverable consequences and may well be a very stupid idea for a lot of individuals.

But once kids learn a little more about things they start in with the denial because they've trapped themselves.

The bottom line is that soon a Master's will become the new Bachelor's. Sure experience matters, but many of the high paying jobs simply require a MS, and if you don't have one, you better have at least a decade of experience with good references to back it up.

Also, it should be noted that a PhD is rarely ever worth it from a monetary and time cost standpoint.

From my other post, some info:

PhDs in maths and computing, social sciences and languages earn no more than those with master's degrees. The premium for a PhD is actually smaller than for a master's degree in engineering and technology, architecture and education. Only in medicine, other sciences, and business and financial studies is it high enough to be worthwhile. Over all subjects, a PhD commands only a 3% premium over a master's degree.

http://www.economist.com/node/17723223
That was 2010.

"In the recession and recovery, those with the most education are hurt the least and recover the fastest," said Anthony Carnavale, director of the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce.

Workers with the highest level of education -- including master's, doctorates and professional degrees -- are a relatively small part of the population, yet they're experiencing the fastest employment gains.

About 1.1 million more of them say they had jobs in 2012, compared to the bottom of the job market in 2010 -- a 6.7% gain -- according to Labor Department data.

Meanwhile, workers with bachelor's degrees -- a much larger group -- have reported 5% employment gains.

Those with a high school education or less are a large group, making up 36% of all U.S. workers over age 25. Their job losses started in 2007 and have yet to stop. About 767,000 fewer workers reported having a job in 2012, than they did in 2010.
Over that same time period, 2 million of them have left the workforce altogether.

Researchers say it's a continuation of a long-run trend shifting jobs toward college educated workers. "Relative demand for highly educated workers is increasing," said Jonathan Rothwell, senior research associate at the Brookings Institution. "There's a long-run shift in the economy toward more professional occupations, and it's mostly at the expense of blue collar occupations."

http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/24/news/economy/college-degree-jobs-recovery/index.html
^From 2010-2012

Let's stop pretending that a MS is worthless when it will vastly increase your chances of getting a job over someone with only a BS.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Let's stop pretending that a MS is worthless when it will vastly increase your chances of getting a job over someone with only a BS.

I admittedly haven't read all the posts, but who said an MS was worthless?

 

[crashtestdummy]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Based on a study last year featured in the Economist, a Master's on average will net 23% more in salary over a Bach. A PhD? 3% more.

Hell a study last week said that in this economy, the only ones not hit hard were people with Master's with double digit growth. A Bach? 5%.

Keep dreaming that your BS in chem is going to get you the job over someone with an MS, it's not.

I believe Soxfan is a lawyer now.

He's actually right for the most part, particularly in the life sciences. Outside of teaching, neither a bachelors nor masters in bio fields tends to do much for you outside of being a lab tech. Masters in engineering, business, and public health (among a few others), on the other hand, are very useful degrees that will actually get you jobs.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

He's actually right for the most part, particularly in the life sciences. Outside of teaching, neither a bachelors nor masters in bio fields tends to do much for you outside of being a lab tech. Masters in engineering, business, and public health (among a few others), on the other hand, are very useful degrees that will actually get you jobs.

Careful now -- there are a glut of MBAs right now and it seems to be more of a checkbox on a screening form than anything else, because experience still rules the day.

 

[Gibsons]

probably isn't selling it right, or is being an entitled dumbass.

He's got a masters in a field where there are tons of Ph.Ds.

 

[crashtestdummy]

In his case, he went to law school. I've heard a lot of people with advanced life science degrees (even some PhDs) have a hard time finding jobs, especially chemistry majors.

Beat me to the punch on the law school bit.

One of the problems for both bio and chem majors is that, after about two decades of rapid growth, the pharm industry is contracting as their patents run out and they're not making enough new drugs to replace them (all the low hanging fruit from combinatorial chemistry have been picked). The result has been a lot of merger and layoffs to consolidate their IP.

 

[CLite]

Let's stop pretending that a MS is worthless when it will vastly increase your chances of getting a job over someone with only a BS.

That depends entirely on the field. For instance the petrochemical industry hires process engineers with just B.S. degrees. Of course they are top of their class and depending on the company get a starting salary of 70k to 80k, sometimes more. In general the industrial arena (I work with power plants, chemical plants, refineries) really does not care too much about MS, it just wants top talent from the B.S. pool and then figures they will get on the job training. That said I did actually get my M.S., although in hind-sight it probably wasn't worth missing a year and half of job experience.

Smart people will research the kind of companies they want to join ahead of time, if MS is an assest then pursue it, if BS is the only listed requirement then just work damn hard at being top of your class.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Beat me to the punch on the law school bit.

One of the problems for both bio and chem majors is that, after about two decades of rapid growth, the pharm industry is contracting as their patents run out and they're not making enough new drugs to replace them (all the low hanging fruit from combinatorial chemistry have been picked). The result has been a lot of merger and layoffs to consolidate their IP.

Yeah, a girl I went to high school with eventually got a PhD in some sort of chemistry from Michigan and is a senior research scientist at Eli Lilly. If we would've been a few years younger, she may not have had that opportunity because of the industry contraction you mention.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Based on a study last year featured in the Economist, a Master's on average will net 23% more in salary over a Bach. A PhD? 3% more.

Hell a study last week said that in this economy, the only ones not hit hard were people with Master's with double digit growth. A Bach? 5%.

Keep dreaming that your BS in chem is going to get you the job over someone with an MS, it's not.

My comment was directed to people with life science degrees who want to work in the life sciences (e.g., in a lab).

To the extent your comment was directed at me specifically, I don't use my BS in the traditional sense, as you might be aware from my other posts. My career path is as follows: BS in chem -> physical scientist in a government lab -> patent examiner -> law school focusing on intellectual property -> student associate in large patent firm -> associate in large patent firm -> in-house patent counsel -> senior patent attorney in a small firm. FWIW, I have competed with folks with PhD's for IP jobs on many occasions and have come out on top. That is because in my line of work, being able to formulate cogent written arguments, having demonstrated good judgment, and having a flexible mind that can learn new technologies quickly is more valuable than having a lot of knowledge about one specific area of one specific type of technology. Sure, having a PhD will give someone new to the IP market a leg up on someone new without a PhD. But education does not trump experience.

That said, I'm happy to consider the study if you care to post/link to it. I'm betting that it speaks broadly to the value of "a" masters (as in, the value of masters degrees "in general"), but isn't granular enough to report on the value of a masters degrees in the life sciences. It would also be interesting to see how the study was structured. E.g., was it looking at average salaries of "new" employees, or the salary potential over an employees lifetime?

 

[crashtestdummy]

Careful now -- there are a glut of MBAs right now and it seems to be more of a checkbox on a screening form than anything else, because experience still rules the day.

Totally fair. MBAs are moving outside of my expertise at this point.

 

[SP33Demon]

I believe Soxfan is a lawyer now.

He's actually right for the most part, particularly in the life sciences. Outside of teaching, neither a bachelors nor masters in bio fields tends to do much for you outside of being a lab tech. Masters in engineering, business, and public health (among a few others), on the other hand, are very useful degrees that will actually get you jobs.

Well of course lawyers (JDs) are still doing ok. But a MS in chemistry isn't necessarily a dead end job compared to law. Most are paying 75-125 range with just a quick check on Monster:
Job example.

Candidate Qualifications:
-Preferably an MSc in Science (Chemistry or Life Sciences) w/ more than 2 years in the Pharmaceutical or Analytical Instrument industry; Ph.D. in related field preferred.

The pharm field (like the one above) seems especially hot for Chem majors.

 

[Mursilis]

It all goes back to an argument I've made here over and over again -- people need to look at a degree as an investment and need to analyze the anticipated ROI before embarking on a degree program. The problem is that too many people selected a degree based on "what they (allegedly) 'love'" or pick the easiest major available just to get a degree. In many (most?) cases, neither of these options will lead to a good career path and often result in loads of debt.

Oh, and before the "college is to become educated and more well rounded" crowd shows up, let me say: bullshit. That was (and probably still is) true for the wealthy, but for the middle class and below, college has always been about upward mobility and attempting to land in a career to make that happen. It is time we take off the blinders and become a little more pragmatic -- majoring in sociology because "you love it" will likely not do anything for you except land you in debt.

Oh, and for the record -- if money and career path were no concern, I would've majored in history or astronomy.

Amen, I say unto thee, Amen!

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Totally fair. MBAs are moving outside of my expertise at this point.

I probably sound like a broken record, but I've been considering an MBA for a couple of years now and just can't make up my mind. I'm not sure that the ROI is there for me and depending on where I go, the cost could be significant.

I nearly completed my MSEE many years ago (completed all the classwork but had some thesis work to do) but I "paused" it when life got in the way and never completed it. I think it is too late to go back for it now but maybe I should see what my options are as it could allow me to switch careers.

 

[Mursilis]

Well of course lawyers (JDs) are still doing ok.

If they've already got jobs, they are. If they're graduating now in today's legal job market, with a glut of JDs and stagnant job growth, they're probably in a stone-cold panic, especially if they borrowed a ton of money to get their degrees. It's not a pretty picture.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The pharm field (like the one above) seems especially hot for Chem majors.

Forbes ranked a Master's degree in Chemistry as one of the worst Master's degree you could get in 2011 based on the following criteria:

With this in mind, Forbes set out to determine which master’s degrees would provide the best long-term opportunities, based on salary and employment outlook.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

If they've already got jobs, they are. If they're graduating now in today's legal job market, with a glut of JDs and stagnant job growth, they're probably in a stone-cold panic, especially if they borrowed a ton of money to get their degrees. It's not a pretty picture.

Yeah, this makes me regret not going into patent law when I graduated with my engineering degree in 1993. Had I done so, I would've landed when the law job market was healthy and would probably be in really good shape now. I'm looking at a possible career switch and law school is something I've thought long and hard about, but the massive debt and the uncertain prospects (new law grads who find jobs make much less than I do now) are scaring me away.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Well of course lawyers (JDs) are still doing ok. But a MS in chemistry isn't necessarily a dead end job compared to law. Most are paying 75-125 range with just a quick check on Monster:
Job example.


The pharm field (like the one above) seems especially hot for Chem majors.

Not really.

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...s_issues/articles/2011_12_09/caredit.a1100136

Over the last several years, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, and Novartis -- and most other pharmaceutical giants, which once seemed unassailable -- have announced huge layoffs. Drug discovery jobs have disappeared by the thousands in the United States and by the hundreds in Europe as the industry has cut costs in order to adjust to what is widely perceived as the end of the blockbuster-drug era.

Major companies were responsible for only seven of those new entities, demonstrating slippage in the traditional dominance of big pharma. Other figures provided by the Factbook bode poorly for the future of the drug pipeline: In 2010, the number of drugs entering phase III was 55% below 2007 levels. Other phases saw similar declines: 53% for phase II, 47% for phase I.

Chemists have been hit especially hard as the industry has moved away from small, chemically designed molecules toward large biologic molecules. “A lot of research in the United States, it’s been redirected in the biotech, biomolecule area,” says Josh Bloom, director of chemical and pharmaceutical sciences at the American Council on Science and Health in New York City. “There have been tens of thousands of layoffs of chemists within a 3-4 year period from all the big companies.”

Chemists can do a lot better moving towards materials synthesis (still an improving field), but the pharma jobs market is looking less and less promising, and the managers I've talked to really see no way for that to change.


Edit: I should note that all these expiring patents, while bad for big pharma, will be great for the average medical patient, as many widely used drugs will go generic.

 

[Gibsons]

Well of course lawyers (JDs) are still doing ok. But a MS in chemistry isn't necessarily a dead end job compared to law. Most are paying 75-125 range with just a quick check on Monster:
Job example.


The pharm field (like the one above) seems especially hot for Chem majors.

The problem - that job will probably get dozens of applications from Ph.Ds. It will be difficult for someone with an M.S. to compete. Yes they can, particularly if they have good and relevant experience. But given the numbers, one of the several dozen PhDs is likely to have equal or better experience.

 

[purbeast0]

threads like this reenforce my decision to get into computer science. have never had any issue with finding a job, and the pay has been great as well.

and to think i nearly dropped out of college after my first year. no way i would be where i am right now had i gone through with it. glad i buckled down.