Massacre in Jenin?

[thevenin8888]

is there a massacre in jenin does anybody know for sure,i am suspicious especially with the media ban in the area and the burying of bodies,i thought the custom was for people to bury their own dead .i don't like bullies and my impression is they(the israeli troops)have been given free licence to thrash the place up for a while and generally terrorise people living in these camps scare them back a little bit so to speak,i live in ireland and as we know the situation in the middle east is far worse than anything that ever occured here in the north but one thing never changes and that's propaganda at these times ,'rounding up terrorists' means that and usually a lot more besides,if people say there is was a massacre i would suspect there is,and sharon's record is not good from sabra and shatila in lebanon.

 

[Passions]

There was no massacre, like the Israelis said, only 40 dead.

 

[Lucky]

40 dead? Is that confirmed by outside sources? I do know that israel was trying to cover many of the deaths up by removing the bodies and burying them themselves, but the supreme court of israel (?) said that they were not allowed to do this.

 

[gopunk]

uh well, i doubt anybody here knows for sure.

 

[Czar]

unkown at the current time
People fleeing from Jenin are telling horrified stories about executions, people being used as human shields, people being inside of buildings when they were demolished. Reporters and civilians around jenin have said that they have seen IDF trucks full of bodies driving outside of jenin and being put in mass graves. The Israeli court has now banned the IDF from doing that. According to the court the IDF is supposed to collect the bodies and hand the over to Palestinian authorities and they will bury the bodies, if they dont the IDF has permission for doing it instead. The court also recomends the IDF works with the Red Cross for identifying the bodies.

In the next few weeks we will get a clearer picture of what happened.

ps. I dont buy into the IDF storie that only 40 people were killed and I dont think anyone realy does

 

[Amused]

<< unkown at the current time
People fleeing from Jenin are telling horrified stories about executions, people being used as human shields, people being inside of buildings when they were demolished. Reporters and civilians around jenin have said that they have seen IDF trucks full of bodies driving outside of jenin and being put in mass graves. The Israeli court has now banned the IDF from doing that. According to the court the IDF is supposed to collect the bodies and hand the over to Palestinian authorities and they will bury the bodies, if they dont the IDF has permission for doing it instead. The court also recomends the IDF works with the Red Cross for identifying the bodies.

In the next few weeks we will get a clearer picture of what happened.

ps. I dont buy into the IDF storie that only 40 people were killed and I dont think anyone realy does >>



You know, it's amazing. After example after example of Arab/Palestinian propaganda fallacies are shown you, you still blindly believe them.

 

[Czar]

<< You know, it's amazing. After example after example of Arab/Palestinian propaganda fallacies are shown you, you still blindly believe them. >>


ditto, just on the Israeli side

 

[gopunk]

<<

<< You know, it's amazing. After example after example of Arab/Palestinian propaganda fallacies are shown you, you still blindly believe them. >>


ditto, just on the Israeli side

>>



so what examples have we seen? ones that have been proven, not just alleged by the PA...

 

[BlueApple]

I wasn't going to post it but I saw in on FARK today, so here it is.

read what CNN and FOX won't tell you about the mideast conflict

 

[Czar]

<<

<<

<< You know, it's amazing. After example after example of Arab/Palestinian propaganda fallacies are shown you, you still blindly believe them. >>


ditto, just on the Israeli side

>>



so what examples have we seen? ones that have been proven, not just alleged by the PA... >>


as I said, the reports are only coming from people fleeing from Jenin who have been interviewed by news people from just about every major news agency in the area. I'm not saying its true, just that the reports are many.

 

[Amused]

<< I wasn't going to post it but I saw in on FARK today, so here it is.

read what CNN and FOX won't tell you about the mideast conflict >>



There's a reason why news networks sometimes don't report stories. Because they are UNVERIFIED.

 

[Czar]

amusedone,
reports like this one have been on bbc, reuters, ap and the guardian.
and this one was posted on the independent, not that sloppy site

 

[SuperTool]

Oh, so when Israelis slaughter innocent Palestinians it's "Massacre" but when Palestians slaughter innocent Israelis it's "Terrorism"
I see a double standard here.

 

[ElFenix]

i don't believe or trust either side.

 

[syzygy]

<< i don't believe or trust either side. >>


ditto.

its prolly not 500 as dr. saeb erekat claimed (or shot off in a fit of emotion) nor is it the ridiculously low
number the sharon propaganda machine is peddling.

from the pictures i've seen, it looks as if the idf implemented their usual collective punishment measures, only
this time on city wide scale. whole blocks were leveled by bulldozers and tanks in their supposed effort to root
out terrorists.

 

[Lucky]

its prolly not 500 as dr. saeb erekat claimed (or shot off in a fit of emotion) nor is it the ridiculously low
number the sharon propaganda machine is peddling.


I think the reasonable among us agreed last week that it was higher than israel's claim of 200, but lower than the palestinians 500 claimed. How many of the 200 that israel confirmed were dead died in jenin (sp?) Im not sure, that was their claim for the whole invasion.

 

[BlueApple]

<<

<< i don't believe or trust either side. >>


ditto.

its prolly not 500 as dr. saeb erekat claimed (or shot off in a fit of emotion) nor is it the ridiculously low
number the sharon propaganda machine is peddling.

from the pictures i've seen, it looks as if the idf implemented their usual collective punishment measures, only
this time on city wide scale. whole blocks were leveled by bulldozers and tanks in their supposed effort to root
out terrorists. >>


Agreed. Usually when the Red Cross or some other NGO gets involved, they find a number between the two numberseach side gives. But in Jenin, the IDF won't let the Red Cross in, or any media in so no one knows.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

The palastinians use human bombs, men, women, and children. they all look unsuspecting and blend in with the crowd. Isreal has a right to protect it's people from terrorist organizations like the PLO. If they are going in a killing people in Jenin, they aren't dumb enough to do it without cause or justification. As with most things everyone's going to side with the underdog or the "oppresed".

I say keep on trucking Isreal. It's your land and you should take care of your internal problems however you see fit.

BTW I don't give a rats ass about their religons or beliefs. The palastinians are just upset because their people are dying in numbers now, not the Isrealis.

 

[Lucky]

<< The palastinians are just upset because their people are dying in numbers now, not the Isrealis. >>




Well first of all, more palestinians have always died than israelis, so a simple claim such as that doesnt do justice to the whole picture. What was the ratio as of a month ago, 5 or 6 palestinians for each israeli?




<< Isreal has a right to protect it's people from terrorist organizations like the PLO. If they are going in a killing people in Jenin, they aren't dumb enough to do it without cause or justification....

I say keep on trucking Isreal. It's your land and you should take care of your internal problems however you see fit. >>




Its not question of whether the attack is justified, its how they are going about it. Smashing houses and running over cars in tanks without need or regard is *not* needed. Since reporters only have limited access, I wont claim to know how specific deaths happened, but consider this: What if in cincinatti last year, when that black kid was killed, the ensueing riot was major, and the rioters were torching businesses, killing innocents bystanders and cops, etc. Of course the police/army would have a justification to use force to stop the violence, but to what extent? Would imposing a 24-hour curfew and shooting anything that moved by justified? Would cutting off the area to ambulances, shutting off water, and refusing to allow food supplies in the area be considered justified? (Even though some of those in the "riot area" are clearly innocent people just living there). Would going in with tanks and running over cars when they drive a couple feet over and miss them be justified?

Say a few of those rioters/criminals holed up in a building. Would coming in with a miliary helicopter and destryong the *whole* building be justified?

 

[Random Variable]

Israeli incursions are always public relations nightmares because Palestinian militants are notorious for using women and children as shields, for seeking refuge at religious sities, for building bomb-making factories in heavily populated areas, and for using ambulances to transport suicide bombers. And on top of that, the Palestinian Authority has a long history of inflating civilian death tolls as a means to garner international sympathy (as if they needed more).

Having said all this, I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people, who continue to be the political pawns of the Arab world.

 

[thevenin8888]

<The palastinians are just upset because their people are dying in numbers now, not the Isrealis.>

it's the other way round, over the past while the israeli dead is rising.
every time there is a suicide bombing the tv cameras are given free rein to shoot ,terrible scenes i know of innocents blown apart.deplorable actions which must be condemned by all right minded people, at the same time israel also seems to have skilled but irritating spokesmen all over the place
to put accross their point of view,they shout everybody else down and say they are arresting terrorists and their operations are justified but at the same time impose media blackouts on the whole thing and disturbingly appear to be disposing of 'palestinian dead'.israel paid a heavy price during world war 2 and maybe this is part of the reason for their zealousness now but i beleive they must act in a civilised way otherwise they are no better than terrorists themselves and its looking that way right now

 

[etech]

When the population supports and hides the terrorists, what is your solution?

Even Arafat has killed his own people that were demostrating.
NYTimes link, registration required.
JERUSALEM, Oct. 8
For the first time in years, Mr. Arafat's security forces used deadly force against Palestinians to suppress a demonstration in support of Osama bin Laden. In a cloud of tear gas and a hail of bullets, two Palestinians ? one of them only 13 ? were slain. Another was close to death.

Does anyone have a death toll when the Palestinians were kicked out of Lebanon? "Black September" I believe it was called.

 

[wolf550e]

There was no massacre. Can't you recognize propoganda?

 

[Random Variable]

<< israel paid a heavy price during world war 2 >>


The state of Israel was created by the United Nations in 1948.

 

[SmackdownHotel]

<< There was no massacre. Can't you recognize propoganda? >>




What if there was?