Massachussets: blame the centrists/corporatists more than the liberals

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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Yesterday afternoon I watched Chris Matthews, the liberal Democrat talk show host on MSNBC, lay into Howard Dean, this afternoon he laid into Alan Grayson, the darling poster child of the "progressive" Netroots. Matthews is apparently trying to get the mouthbreathers to wake up to reality but I am not sure they have an inkling as to what he is getting at. If any of them recognize this it is not apparent in their rhetoric.

The electorate, other than the ultra-loyal minority that each political party has, is moving away from whatever loyalty they traditionally might have had. And their tolerance is mighty short in tough economic times.

The Left, Right, Republican, Democratic labels are not how people are thinking right now. As the below article recounts, we the people are now considering which is the better of two unfortunate bad choices. And are hoping for another option altogether. We want more of the candidates that won Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts.

The Republicans obviously have started identifying candidates that recognize the sea swell. They are winning as a result. Those of you in the Nut and the Creep categories still don't get it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703699204575017503811443526.html
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JANUARY 22, 2010, 5:10 P.M. ET

The New Political Rumbling


Massachusetts may signal an end to old ways of fighting.
  • By PEGGY NOONAN
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What does the Massachusetts election mean? It means America is in play again. The 2008 election settled nothing, not even for a while. Our national politics are reflecting what appears to be going on geologically, on the bottom of the oceans and beneath the crust of the Earth: the tectonic plates are moving.

America never stops moving now.

Massachusetts said, "Yes, we want change, but the change we want is not the change that has been delivered by the Democratic administration and the Democratic Congress. So we will turn elsewhere."

We are in a postromantic political era. They hire you and fire you, nothing personal. Family connection, personal charm, old traditions, fealty to party, all are nice and have their place, but right now we are immersed in crisis, and we vote on policies that affect our lives.

It is not the end of something so much as the beginning of something. Ted Kennedy took his era with him. But what has begun is something new and potentially promising.

President Obama carried Massachusetts by 26 points on Nov. 4, 2008. Fifteen months later, on Jan. 19, 2010, the eve of the first anniversary of his inauguration, his party's candidate lost Massachusetts by five points. That's a 31-point shift. Mr. Obama won Virginia by six points in 2008. A year later, on Nov. 2, 2009, his party's candidate for governor lost by 18 points—a 25 point shift. Mr. Obama won New Jersey in 2008 by 16 points. In 2009 his party's incumbent governor lost re-election by four points—a 20-point shift.

In each race, the president's party lost independent voters, who in 2008 voted like Democrats and in 2010 voted like Republicans.

Is it a backlash? It seems cooler than that, a considered and considerable rejection that appears to be signaling a conservative resurgence based on issues and policies, most obviously opposition to increased government spending, fear of higher taxes, and rejection of the idea that expansion of government can or will solve our economic challenges.

And it's taking place within a particular context.

Speaking broadly: In the 2006 and 2008 elections, and at some point during the past decade, the ancestral war between Democrats and the Republicans began to take on a new look. If you were a normal human sitting at home having a beer and watching national politics peripherally, as normal people do until they focus on an election, chances are pretty good you came to see the two major parties not as the Dems versus the Reps, or the blue versus the red, but as the Nuts versus the Creeps. The Nuts were for high spending and taxing and the expansion of government no matter what. The Creeps were hypocrites who talked one thing and did another, who went along on the spending spree while lecturing on fiscal solvency.

In 2008, the voters went for Mr. Obama thinking he was not a Nut but a cool and sober moderate of the center-left sort. In 2009 and 2010, they looked at his general governing attitudes as reflected in his preoccupations—health care, cap and trade—and their hidden, potential and obvious costs, and thought, "Uh-oh, he's a Nut!"

Which meant they were left with the Creeps.

But the Republican candidates in Virginia and New Jersey, and now Scott Brown in Massachusetts, did something amazing. They played the part of the Creep very badly! They put themselves forward as serious about spending, as independent, not narrowly partisan. Mr. Brown rarely mentioned he was a Republican, and didn't even mention the party in his victory speech. Importantly, their concerns were on the same page as the voters'. They focused on the relationship between spending and taxing, worried about debt and deficits, were moderate in their approach to social issues. They didn't have wedge issues, they had issues.

The contest between the Nuts and the Creeps may be ending. The Nuts just got handed three big losses, and will have to have a meeting in Washington to discuss whether they've gotten too nutty. But the Creeps have kind of had their meetings—in Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts. And what seems to be emerging from that is a new and nonsnarling Republicanism. It may be true—and they will demonstrate in time if it is true—that they have learned from past defeats, absorbed the lessons, reconsidered the meaning of politics. Maybe in time it will be said of this generation of Republicans what André Malraux said to Whittaker Chambers after reading his memoir, "Witness": "You did not come back from hell with empty hands."

For Mr. Brown now, everything depends on execution. He made the Olympics. Now he has to do the swan dive, with a billion people watching. And then he has to do it again.

He needs to serve the country the way he campaigned for votes—earnest, open, not beholden to interest or party. And he needs to avoid the Descent of the Congressional Vampires, who'll attempt to claim his victory as their own and suck from his neck until he's a pale and lifeless husk. Not to understate. But they'll want him fund-raising and speaking all over the country, not knowing or perhaps caring that the best work he can do for his party is succeeding in the eyes of his constituents, who couldn't care less about the fortunes of the GOP. He needs to avoid the vampires in the nicest possible way. Maybe he should carry a little cross deep inside his breast pocket so they retreat without knowing why: "I tried to get him to Boca for the donor retreat but some invisible force stopped me! I ran backwards and slipped on the shiny marble floor! Mah hip is out!"

In a telephone conversation Wednesday night, Mr. Brown spoke of what's ahead. The conversation turned to the movie "The Candidate," to the moment Robert Redford wins the election and takes a top strategist aside to ask: "What do we do now?"

Mr. Brown laughed: "I know what I want to do: Go down there and be a good person, a good and competent senator. I have huge shoes to fill, the legacy is just overwhelming. I'm a consensus builder. . . . I can disagree in the daytime and have a coffee or beer later on. Everyone's welcome to their opinion."

He said he thought the president "inherited a lot of problems," that "he's doing a great job with North Korea, a nice job with Afghanistan." A centerpiece of Mr. Brown's campaign was opposition to the president's health-care plan, but he stressed that he opposes high spending wherever it comes from. "I've criticized President Bush for his failure to use his veto pen. There's plenty of blame to go around. The question is how to solve problems. It's not bailouts. What made America great? Free markets, free enterprise, manufacturing, job creation. That's how we're gonna do it, not by enlarging government."

The next morning he took the 8 a.m. shuttle from Boston to Washington for his first trip to the Capitol. On the plane, after they took off, the pilot came on and said, "Senator Brown is on board, on his way to Washington." The plane erupted in applause.

That's a good way to begin. It reminded me of 12 months before, on the shuttle to Washington, with a plane full of people on their way to the inauguration of Barack Obama. The pilot spoke of it, and the plane erupted in cheers.

That feels like another era. Because America keeps moving, the plates keep shifting, and execution is everything. Everything.
 
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woolfe9999

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Mar 28, 2005
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Peggy Noonan is more apt to make sense than most conservatives, IMO. What she says here mostly makes sense. We are in a period of political volatility where we hire and fire our elected officials the way football franchises like the Raiders do with their coaches.

I would caution on this, however:

"Is it a backlash? It seems cooler than that, a considered and considerable rejection that appears to be signaling a conservative resurgence based on issues and policies, most obviously opposition to increased government spending, fear of higher taxes, and rejection of the idea that expansion of government can or will solve our economic challenges."

When the left claimed that there was an ideological realignment leftward in late 2008, the right said, no, it was the economy, stupid. And they were correct. Which is why I would caution against conservatives reading too much into what is happened right now. Noonan said it herself - our electorate has become fickle. It is important not to confuse national mood with national ideology. This is especially true with independent voters.

- wolf
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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wow, Chris Matthews seems to be a lot saner than I remember

I think he is still very partisan for the Dems, but the fact that the Dems are being demolished has given him real pause.

He is approaching the discussion from a reality check - saying wake up, man up and realize you are not going to win doing the stuff you have been doing.

And, most delicious of all, he is making a point of dissing the netroots "progressives" that he seems to think are way, way out of touch with reality.

Watch for the DailyGross and HuffandPuffPost crowd to start jumping down his throat.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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Interesting to see that Sam Brown continues to proclaim his support of Romneycare, including the individual mandate.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Interesting to see that Sam Brown continues to proclaim his support of Romneycare, including the individual mandate.

That's SCOTT Brown, unless you are making a funny that I don't get.

Yeah, I think he campaigned against the current bills as written and will vote against them should they be brought up as is.

It will be interesting to see how he actually votes if the bills are redone with bi-partisan input and then brought up for a vote. He would likely be a go vote then, but then so might there be others.

My guess is that it is back to the drawing board for another year, though.

Which is a good thing.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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That's SCOTT Brown, unless you are making a funny that I don't get.

Yeah, I think he campaigned against the current bills as written and will vote against them should they be brought up as is.

It will be interesting to see how he actually votes if the bills are redone with bi-partisan input and then brought up for a vote. He would likely be a go vote then, but then so might there be others.

My guess is that it is back to the drawing board for another year, though.

Which is a good thing.

Sorry, I misposted. Honestly, I really don't care much about individual politicians.

But yes, Scott Brown continues to proclaim his support of Romneycare, including the individual mandate.

So my guess too is that they go back to the drawing board for a year or so, probably after the mid-term elections, and then pass a far more sweeping and expensive healthcare bill, this time with broad bipartisan support.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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So my guess too is that they go back to the drawing board for a year or so, probably after the mid-term elections, and then pass a far more sweeping and expensive healthcare bill, this time with broad bipartisan support.

I agree that it is much more likely that we will see some reform action in 2011. 2010 is an election year and the amount of work and the level of discourse required is just not going to happen.

Forget about an expensive fix. The challenge to the Democrats will be the claimed relative frugality of the Republicans. And the intent to extend the intrusion of government into people's lives will be substantially muted with the expected re-alignment.

The current system could be tweaked with more intrastate insurance competition, tax credits, modest state grants, and tort reform. Throw in no exclusion for pre-existing conditions and one or two other tweaks and you have a winner.
 

Vic

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Jun 12, 2001
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I agree that it is much more likely that we will see some reform action in 2011. 2010 is an election year and the amount of work and the level of discourse required is just not going to happen.

Forget about an expensive fix. The challenge to the Democrats will be the claimed relative frugality of the Republicans. And the intent to extend the intrusion of government into people's lives will be substantially muted with the expected re-alignment.

The current system could be tweaked with more intrastate insurance competition, tax credits, modest state grants, and tort reform. Throw in no exclusion for pre-existing conditions and one or two other tweaks and you have a winner.

Hmm... then we are in agreement. I think you're being overly positive, but I hope you're right. Brown's support of the individual mandate is what makes me think you're not.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Hmm... then we are in agreement. I think you're being overly positive, but I hope you're right. Brown's support of the individual mandate is what makes me think you're not.

Brown may or may not be for some kind of mandate for a federal program. That remains to be seen when a new bill is crafted. Remember, he was part of a very small minority in the State House. He had to get along to go along, to support fellow R Romney to get influence to do something else.

More importantly, there are a number of Democrats in Congress that are against mandates for a number of reasons, no matter how they voted to date. Now that the fragile coalition has broken apart and public opinion is adamantly opposed to the overreach they will not be responsive to the pressures that were previously applied.

Obama was railing about this on TV in his last few speeches, they seemed aimed directly at Congress. But, it is now election season and the Democrats are mostly passing on the kool-aid.

Watch for what Obama says in the State of the Union speech next week. If he moderates, the Dems have a mild chance to retain a majority in November. I doubt he will as he is an ideologue and a narcissist, a spoiled Golden Child that cannot accept that he is being rejected. And by the proletariat to boot.
 
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Vic

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Jun 12, 2001
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Brown may or may not be for some kind of mandate for a federal program. That remains to be seen when a new bill is crafted. Remember, he was part of a very small minority in the State House. He had to get along to go along, to support fellow R Romney to get influence to do something else.

More importantly, there are a number of Democrats in Congress that are against mandates for a number of reasons, no matter how they voted to date. Now that the fragile coalition has broken apart and public opinion is adamantly opposed to the overreach they will not be responsive to the pressures that were previously applied.

Obama was railing about this on TV in his last few speeches, they seemed aimed directly at Congress. But, it is now election season and the Democrats are mostly passing on the kool-aid.

Watch for what Obama says in the State of the Union speech next week. If he moderates, the Dems have a mild chance to retain a majority in November. I doubt he will as he is an ideologue and a narcissist, a spoiled Golden Child that cannot accept that he is being rejected. And by the proletariat to boot.

FYI: Obama is against mandates. See Democratic primary debates in LA January 2008.

You see, this is what happens when you put party in front of ideology. You keep getting made a fool of.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Peggy Noonan quoted Scott Brown as saying:

The question is how to solve problems. It's not bailouts. What made America great? Free markets, free enterprise, manufacturing, job creation. That's how we're gonna do it, not by enlarging government."
This is just more rhetorical clap-trap that sounds good to people but lacks substance.

Did Scott Brown ever say what his plans were for fixing our nations' economic problems? If someone had cornered him and started asking probing questions, what would he have said?

"Mr. Brown, in your view, is it possible that the free market, manufacturing, and jobs might be at odds with one another? Doesn't the free market allow businesses to ship manufacturing and jobs overseas where they can be preformed in China by low-wage workers free of environmental and labor regulations?

Don't your free market principles also allow businesses to hire anyone you want, meaning that they could import foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas and displace Americans from their jobs?

Mr. Brown, don't free market principles also mean that the government won't regulate immigration, meaning that tens of millions of immigrants would be welcome in the United States, allowing them to put downward pressure on wages and to displace Americans from formerly middle class jobs in fields like construction?

How do explain how, under free market medicine, the U.S. spends a large fraction of its GDP on health care while other nations with socialized medicine cover 100% of their population while spending a smaller percentage of their GDP on health care? Ironically, is it possible that businesses in nations that have socialized medicine might be freer and less burdened than businesses in the United States that have to worry about health insurance costs and concerns?"

Did anyone ever ask him that on the campaign trail? Did he ever address those questions? Sadly, they probably never occurred to 99.5% of the electorate at all which only knows what the TV shows feed them.
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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When the left claimed that there was an ideological realignment leftward in late 2008, the right said, no, it was the economy, stupid. And they were correct. Which is why I would caution against conservatives reading too much into what is happened right now. Noonan said it herself - our electorate has become fickle. It is important not to confuse national mood with national ideology. This is especially true with independent voters.

I am wondering if what we will begin to see is an anti-incumbent movement. To an extent Coakley's defeat was anti-incumbent since a Democratic figurehead had held the seat previously.

What will happen if our nation's economy does not improve but only worsens and the streets become filled with angry, unemployed and underemployed Americans, who look at the excesses of Wall Street and conclude that something is very unfair in this country? I think that Obama would lose in 2012 and that his predecessor would then lose in 2016 and that the presidential seat would continue to flip-flop until there is some noticeable signs of improvement. Congressional seats would also change hands frequently and charismatic third party and independent candidates might win some races.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Did anyone ever ask him that on the campaign trail? Did he ever address those questions? Sadly, they probably never occurred to 99.5% of the electorate at all which only knows what the TV shows feed them.

None of the geniuses at Harvard or Roxbury Community College or WBZ-TV asked him loaded questions like these? For shame! They could have had their own Charlie Gibbs or Katie Couric moment!

This is a guy that ran an intense grass roots campaign as well as being a long serving local politician. He met a hell of a lot of people and the folks in Massachusetts are not shy about asking direct questions about what affects them.

Get over it. The guy won fair and square.

We will see what he actually does while he is in office. He doesn't have a full term so Massachusetts voters will get a chance to evaluate him again in a couple of years.

Isn't democracy grand?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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I am wondering if what we will begin to see is an anti-incumbent movement. To an extent Coakley's defeat was anti-incumbent since a Democratic figurehead had held the seat previously.

What will happen if our nation's economy does not improve but only worsens and the streets become filled with angry, unemployed and underemployed Americans, who look at the excesses of Wall Street and conclude that something is very unfair in this country? I think that Obama would lose in 2012 and that his predecessor would then lose in 2016 and that the presidential seat would continue to flip-flop until there is some noticeable signs of improvement. Congressional seats would also change hands frequently and charismatic third party and independent candidates might win some races.

That is exactly what might happen. :awe:
 
Oct 30, 2004
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None of the geniuses at Harvard or Roxbury Community College or WBZ-TV asked him loaded questions like these? For shame! They could have had their own Charlie Gibbs or Katie Couric moment!

This is a guy that ran an intense grass roots campaign as well as being a long serving local politician. He met a hell of a lot of people and the folks in Massachusetts are not shy about asking direct questions about what affects them.

Get over it. The guy won fair and square.

Maybe someone did ask him those questions, but I wonder, what were his responses?