Mass Anti-Japanese Protests and Rioting in China, etc, over Daioyu Islands

[bfdd]

US Ambassador's car attacked now

http://www.ecominoes.com/2012/09/chinese-protesters-attack-us.html

 

[unokitty]

Exactly what I read... via wikipedia. It stated that during the first Japanese-Sino war Japan claimed the island, but after the war they signed the "San Francisco Treaty" which gave back all territories seized by Japan... thus making the island China's again... until the 1970's when the US claimed it was Japan's... If this is accurate it seems we made a blunder and the island is China's, in which case we should be apologizing.

This is however based on what I read on wikipedia, which we know may or may not be accurate. If someone ACTUALLY knows please chime in...

Edit: Seems my summary above was a little pedestrian and vague... here's an article that sums things up a little better. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/7953170.html

I am not a historian.

But I did live in Okinawa in 70 and 71. I can share with you what was the common perspective then... Please realize that this is not an academic discourse. But in case anyone would find it interesting, I'll present a few things that I remember .

First
Japanese hold the Ryukyu Islanders at an arms length. The Ryukyu Self Defense Forces that I worked with told me that, at best, the Japanese considered them "cousins" rather than full Japanese.

Second
There were historical periods where the Japanese and Chinese refused to trade with each other. During this time, they would both conduct trade through Okinawa (which traded with both.)

Third
Okinawa was annexed by Japan in 1868 and became a prefecture in 1879. While there is substantial Chinese cultural influence on the island in the architecture and the food, to the best of my knowledge, Okinawa was never considered part of mainland China.

Four
Historically, there were times that Okinawa did pay taxes to China. There were other time when they paid taxes to Japan. And I believe that there were also periods when they paid taxes to both...

Five
When I was there, Okinawa was not considered part of Japan. There had been some sort of agreement signed. But for the most it said that the Americans would appoint a "High Commissioner" that would rule the island. (That is, a commanding general.)

While I was there, there were ongoing negotiations about the return of Okinawa to Japan. And there were Okinawans that opposed the return. I believe that they saw an independent future for the island. Though, I could never get a perspective on the size of the opposition.

Six
At time I was there, China lacked the military resources to have a presence in the South China Sea. Consequently, they were a non issue. (Unless, you consider the NSA listening stations on Okinawa to be an issue.) And their claims to these other islands were non issues because they simply didn't have the assets to enforce or defend any claims.

For example, it was relatively common knowledge that there were routine SR-71 flights over the mainland.

Seven
I have read somewhere, don't remember where, that the mainland does not have historical ties to the Ryukyus or these other islands. That their claims are through Taiwan. That is, Taiwan has a historical claim. We claim Taiwan. Consequently, the South China Sea is a Chinese Lake.

Eight
All of the major civilian losses during WWII occurred near Japanese Army Bases. There are reports of the Japanese Army gunning down Okinawains as they attempted to surrender to the Americans during WWII. Other cases of the Japanese Army taking all of the food from civilians in villages...

Nine
Last month, James Webb wrote an excellent article in the Wall Street Journal called The South China Sea's Gathering Storm.

Webb is very knowledge about this area. Strongly recommend that anyone interested in the area read it.

Also feel that it would be a major mistake to underestimate any of the nations in this area. If you look at the areas history, its pretty bloody. And each of the nations involved have demonstrate that they are capable of irrational behaviours.

Appreciate everyone's contributions to the thread. Looking forward to hearing anything anyone else has to share.

Uno

 

[Xellos2099]

Good info, but in the end, did USA have the right to give away the island to Japan specially if the island belong to another country

 

[nyker96]

Chinese citizens are in general still angry at Japan for their refusal to apologize for the many atrocities and war crimes they committed during WW2 in chinese soil.

This island thing might just be a spark but not the cause of that anger. Japan has never formally apologized for war crimes committed during that time and has rewritten school books to sanitize what they did during that period if not out right revise history.

I'm not saying it will be easy for Japan to own up to what they did to civilians in China during WW2, it's quite a touchy subject. But burying your head in the sand and deny things will only go so far and it leaves quite a bit of animosity behind.

 

[Dari]

Good info, but in the end, did USA have the right to give away the island to Japan specially if the island belong to another country

What do you say "belong"? Was it given to the Chinese by God? If you want something, take it.

 

[Dari]

Chinese citizens are in general still angry at Japan for their refusal to apologize for the many atrocities and war crimes they committed during WW2 in chinese soil.

This island thing might just be a spark but not the cause of that anger. Japan has never formally apologized for war crimes committed during that time and has rewritten school books to sanitize what they did during that period if not out right revise history.

I'm not saying it will be easy for Japan to own up to what they did to civilians in China during WW2, it's quite a touchy subject. But burying your head in the sand and deny things will only go so far and it leaves quite a bit of animosity behind.

Japan already apologized...many times. For the Chinese and Koreans, it is never enough. Bitches need to stop asking for apologies and move on with their lives.

 

[Necrolezbeast]

Japan already apologized...many times. For the Chinese and Koreans, it is never enough. Bitches need to stop asking for apologies and move on with their lives.

How could they properly apologize for something they continually deny or downplay?

 

[unokitty]

Good info, but in the end, did USA have the right to give away the island to Japan specially if the island belong to another country

Short answer.
Depending on how they view the situation, honest people could have very different answers to that question. Lets look at three different examples.

Example One
At the time of the treaty ('72) returning those islands to Japan, along with Okinawa, China had no military, or other, assets in that geographical area.

Since WWII, the US had been the dominant military power in that area. Since '31, and before, Japan and China had been having continuing military conflicts. After WWII, China resumed its internal revolution. So, you could argue that even if China had a claim, it had 'ipso facto' abandoned it by not having a presence on the islands or in the East China Sea for so long.

In '72, the US was still the dominant military power in the area. Consequently, you could argue that since they had maintained the peace and domestic economies of the occupied islands, that they were the 'ipso facto' rulers of those islands. And consequently, they did have the legal right to "return" them to Japan.

Example Two
You could argue that China has a several thousand year history. And that an absence of several decades from the area, does not mean that they had abandoned their claims.

The status of Taiwan complicates the issue. Historically, I believe that it has been ruled by the Dutch, the Japanese, and the Chinese. I don't know that it would be productive to get into the Taiwan issue now. Though, the claims to these other islands may run through it.

Nonetheless, in this situation, you could argue that to return the islands to Japan without China's involvement might indicate that the return was invalid. (Though, I don't think that the US had diplomatic relations with China at that time...)

Example Three
On a third hand, you could make the case that China either is, or is about to become, a significant military presence in the East China Sea. Consequently, you could argue that that means that all of the historical claims need to be revisited.


Please understand, I am neither a historian nor a political scientist. I am just an ordinary person that has happened to spend some time in that part of the world. And I know enough to know that there is much that I don't know.

The future will unfold at its own time. My hope for that part of the world is that their future will be more peaceful than their past.

Uno

 

[Svnla]

Well, if China/Chinese are going to use the "historic/ancient claims" then Mongolia, Manchuria, Britain, and Japan can put a claim on all or parts of China. Also, China's neighbors could use their "ancient claims" to claim back old land that China took from them by force years ago.

Funny how China/Chinese would not dare to say a word about the huge swap of land nears the Amur River that Russia took from them in 1858 (600,000 square kilometers IIRC).

 

[unokitty]

Well, if China/Chinese are going to use the "historic/ancient claims" then Mongolia, Manchuria, Britain, and Japan can put a claim on all or parts of China. Also, China's neighbors could use their "ancient claims" to claim back old land that China took from them by force years ago.

Funny how China/Chinese would not dare to say a word about the huge swap of land nears the Amur River that Russia took from them in 1858 (600,000 square kilometers IIRC).

Excellent point.

In a similar way, there are all of those European borders that were redrawn after WWII.

Of course, every so often one of my Mexican friends will remind me that Texas at one point was part of Mexico as well.

What is different about the East China Sea, I think,is that several of the entities involved feel that they have pending grievances. That is, a feeling that things are unfinished and perhaps unfair.

Along with the feeling that as the US withdraws, there may come to be a vacuum where there didn't used to be one... So, it is less a question of How did things used to be? More of a question of How are things going to be in the future? And the only thing that everyone agrees on is that the future will be different than the past...

Uno

 

[OCGuy]

Good info, but in the end, did USA have the right to give away the island to Japan specially if the island belong to another country

To the victor goes the spoils. Yes, we had the "right", whatever that means.

 

[Dari]

How could they properly apologize for something they continually deny or downplay?

Your opinion. Besides, it's a fucking apology. Who cares. Aren't there more important things in life to worry about?

 

[unokitty]

"Two nations that together make up 17% of the world's GDP move toward war — and where do we stand?"

Interesting article from Investors Business Daily.

Uno

 

[K1052]

"Two nations that together make up 17% of the world's GDP move toward war — and where do we stand?"

Interesting article from Investors Business Daily.

Uno

It's not interesting, it just mostly digs on Obama for doing his fundraising for the election. He's not going to be personally going out to the South China Sea to play "Battleship" with the Chinese if something goes down.

It isn't even a question that we would back Japan if things deteriorated, as we have since the end of WWII. These are big boy countries however and should be allowed some time to sort out their issues on their own. I see no need to stick our nose into this thing unless it becomes an actual regional security issue.

 

[StrangerGuy]

It's not interesting, it just mostly digs on Obama for doing his fundraising for the election. He's not going to be personally going out to the South China Sea to play "Battleship" with the Chinese if something goes down.

It isn't even a question that we would back Japan if things deteriorated, as we have since the end of WWII. These are big boy countries however and should be allowed some time to sort out their issues on their own. I see no need to stick our nose into this thing unless it becomes an actual regional security issue.

As a non-China Chinese I'm pretty sure both will work out a deal eventually or the status quo continue indefinitely. All those warships deployed to the area is just a matter of national pride for all sides, the possibility of armed conflict is so minimal because these countries are run by sane rational people.

 

[jhu]

Oh good. We could use another world war to get out of this economic slump.

 

[Budmantom]

Obama administration is blaming this on the amateur muslim video and they have apologized.

 

[bfdd]

Surprised my link got over looked, maybe I posted it in the wrong thread lol. Really need to stop intervening all over the world. No one likes captain save a ho

 

[Svnla]

Treaty With Japan Covers Islets in China Spat: US Official = http://www.cnbc.com/id/49112069

The uninhabited islets in the East China Sea at the center of a bitter dispute between China and Japan are "clearly" covered by a 1960 security treaty obliging the United States to come to Japan's aid if attacked, a top U.S. diplomat said on Thursday.

As I said before, if China can bully Japan (one of the strongest navy in Asia) then weaker neighbors (with negligible navy comparing to China) such as Vietnam and Philippines will be rattle in their fight against Chinese aggression in the South of China Sea.

 

[Cattykit]

Japan already apologized...many times. For the Chinese and Koreans, it is never enough. Bitches need to stop asking for apologies and move on with their lives.

Most, if not all, of said apologies addressed by Japanese prime ministers were done at a 'personal' level.
After they've made apologizes, they'd, as the head of the nation, visit Shintos where war criminals are buried and pay respect.
Japanese gov't denies mass killings occurred in Nanjing along with many others. When several millions of people get killed, it's not easy to bury what happened.
Japanese gov't denies human experiment conducted by Unit 731. Even worse, after the war, the founder and officers of Unit 731 was set free without charges.
Japanese gov't says sex slaves were volunteers.
The list goes on and on.

So, imagine what other European nations would feel if Germany does what Japan has been doing.

What good are apologize when they don't admit what they have done? In the first place, why do they keep apologizing so many times? Because of the way they handle the business: apologize, do something stupid to provoke China and Korea, apologize, do something stupid to provoke again. It's the endless circle.

It'd been all over if Japan does what Germany has been doing. It's simple as that but Japan just can't do it so it goes on and on.

EDIT:
If you still don't get it, imagine a situation like this:
I beat the crap out of you, rape female members in your family, kill your parents, and conduct human experiment on your brother.
Cops come in, I get arrested. I, somehow, manages to get immunity. I'm set free and I get rich.
I apologize for what I've done. Then, I say those things didn't happen. You get mad. I apologize, again. Then, I say your sister volunteered to get in bed with me and they liked it. You get mad and I apologize.
And, I say your parents were weak and I taught them a lesson. You get mad and I apologize. Then, I say you never had a brother so I can't be accused of what happened to your brother.
Shit goes on and on. Then, this random person says "stop bitching, Dari. What more do you ask? Just live your life."

 

[unokitty]

Japan already apologized...many times. For the Chinese and Koreans, it is never enough. Bitches need to stop asking for apologies and move on with their lives.

It is also not enough for the Okinawans. 100,000 of whom protested the Japanese attempt to delete reverences to the role of the Japanese Army in forcing Okinawans to commit suicide. Specifically: "A government decision two years ago to delete textbook references to the Japanese military role in the forced suicides brought the issue to a boil on Okinawa, culminating in a protest by more than 100,000 people in September last year."

As long as people like, Toshio Tamogami, chief of staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force, continue to publish essays that argue that Japan was not an aggressor during World War II, that the war brought prosperity to China, Taiwan and Korea, that the Imperial Japanese Army's conduct was not violent and that the Greater East Asia War is viewed in a positive way by many Asian countries ... It will not be enough.

As long as Japan continues to honor war criminals at Yasukuni, there will be those that think that Japan's 'apologies' ring hollow.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. But it would be a mistake to believe that your opinion has universal acceptance.

Uno

 

[alphatarget1]

It is also not enough for the Okinawans. 100,000 of whom protested the Japanese attempt to delete reverences to the role of the Japanese Army in forcing Okinawans to commit suicide. Specifically: "A government decision two years ago to delete textbook references to the Japanese military role in the forced suicides brought the issue to a boil on Okinawa, culminating in a protest by more than 100,000 people in September last year."

As long as people like, Toshio Tamogami, chief of staff of Japan's Air Self-Defense Force, continue to publish essays that argue that Japan was not an aggressor during World War II, that the war brought prosperity to China, Taiwan and Korea, that the Imperial Japanese Army's conduct was not violent and that the Greater East Asia War is viewed in a positive way by many Asian countries ... It will not be enough.

As long as Japan continues to honor war criminals at Yasukuni, there will be those that think that Japan's 'apologies' ring hollow.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. But it would be a mistake to believe that your opinion has universal acceptance.

Uno

No Asian countries like Japan.

The Japanese think that they own all the islands in the Pacific, but really Japan is only America's lapdog. South Korea and China will pwn Japan. The Russians took the Kuril Islands from the Japanese after WWII and the Russians will never give it back, and there is jack shit the Japanese can do about it. Same goes for Dokho and Diaoyu for the South Koreans and Chinese. The era of Japan is pretty much over, just look at Samsung vs. Sony.

 

[Karl Agathon]

Japan should immediately reverse its constitution and develop a land and sea based nuclear deterent. I dont give a damn how many times America reassures them that everything will ok. America doesnt have to live virtually next store to that increasingly bellicose bully, Japan Does. I'm thankfully at the very least Japan has a very credible Navy with Aegis equipped ships.

Also glad that there are F-22s at kadena air force base there should the big bully need to be kept in check if they step to far out of line (per americas defense treaty with Japan) its only a matter of time before Japan has little choice but to reverse its constitution and go nuclear. Please Japan, dont listen to America!! Go nuclear immediately!!!

More good news!!

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/artic...ic-even-tensions-escalate-between-china-japan

 

[Svnla]

To be fair, what Japan did in WWII was horrible but since after the war, I don't remember Japan had ever bullied or attacked any of the neighbors as China had. Same as Germany, they did horrible things in WWII but since then, they did not attack/bully anyone.

 

[CWRMadcat]

To be fair, what Japan did in WWII was horrible but since after the war, I don't remember Japan ever did bully or attack any of the neighbors as China had. Same as Germany, they did horrible things in WWII but since then, they did not attack/bully anyone.

Japan doesn't have much to bully with.