Martial Arts Experts -- settle a score for me

[Alphathree33]

I was just walking with my friend when we saw a room full of people in white robes and black belts. Most of them seemed to have the look of beginners -- unsure and sloppy style.
I know nothing about the martial arts, but I happened to comment as we passed that they were probably just wearing belts that were of the color black, and not necessarily 'black belts' i.e. people who have attained a very high status in whatever it was they were doing.
My conversation with my friend went something like this:
"No... that's not possible."
"Why not?"
"It's just not."
"Are you saying that no martial arts use the color black to designate a beginner status?"
"Yes."
"There has never been a martial art in human history that has ever used the color black to denote anything other than mastery?"
"No."
Like I said, I know nothing of the martial arts, but this was such an extremely broad claim that I was sure I would be able to find several counterexamples.
I'm googling the subject right now, but anyone who has experience or could point me in the right direction (i.e. martial arts which don't care about belt color or use black for beginner status)... could you help?

Thanks.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

You made this expert analysis of their style from the five seconds you saw walking by?

I don't know about "all" - but I don't know of any where black = no0b.

- M4H

 

[tweakmm]

Maybe that was a drunken boxing master gathering?

 

[tcsenter]

There are many martial arts that do not use any "belt" at all to designate proficiency or status. So yeah, in some martial arts, a belt is a thing used to hold your Gi up.

 

[Alphathree33]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
There are many martial arts that do not use any "belt" at all to designate proficiency or status. So yeah, in some martial arts, a belt is a thing used to hold your Gi up.

Do you have any example(s)?

 

[fredtam]

Kung Fu, Taekwando, Hapkido. Actually any classical style will not have belts. Belts are relatively new and most true martial arts schools don't use them. They were developed so masters new which students could participate in which activities. Then came just black and white. Now they have all kinds of colors. Most of which mean nothing more than you attended enough classes and paid your monthly dues. I have studied Taekwando and Hapkido for the last 22 years (since I was 8) and have not been designated any particular belt. So you are right. However if you take Taekwando at the "Y" they will organize you by belts.

 

[Alphathree33]

Originally posted by: fredtam
Kung Fu, Taekwando, Hapkido. Actually any classical style will not have belts. Belts are relatively new and most true martial arts schools don't use them. They were developed so masters new which students could participate in which activities. Then came just black and white. Now they have all kinds of colors. Most of which mean nothing more than you attended enough classes and paid your monthly dues. I have studied Taekwando and Hapkido for the last 22 years (since I was 8) and have not been designated any particular belt. So you are right. However if you take Taekwando at the "Y" they will organize you by belts.

These martial arts you've described -- although they don't "have" belts, they still "wear" belts to ... hold up their pants... right?

 

[UltraQuiet]

It's one of those "progressive" dojo's from the same mold as those who have forbidden dodge ball at school. See, no one is a winner, no one is a loser, they all are equal, no ones feelings get hurt and everyone has lots of self- esteem. To facilitate this they all wear the same "black" belt to signify that they are all winners.

 

[Alphathree33]

Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
It's one of those "progressive" dojo's from the same mold as those who have forbidden dodge ball at school. See, no one is a winner, no one is a loser, they all are equal, no ones feelings get hurt and everyone has lots of self- esteem. To facilitate this they all wear the same "black" belt to signify that they are all winners.

Is this true or are you just being sarcastic? (I mean it makes sense but on ATOT it's hard to tell. )

 

[fredtam]

Originally posted by: Alphathree33

Originally posted by: fredtam
Kung Fu, Taekwando, Hapkido. Actually any classical style will not have belts. Belts are relatively new and most true martial arts schools don't use them. They were developed so masters new which students could participate in which activities. Then came just black and white. Now they have all kinds of colors. Most of which mean nothing more than you attended enough classes and paid your monthly dues. I have studied Taekwando and Hapkido for the last 22 years (since I was 8) and have not been designated any particular belt. So you are right. However if you take Taekwando at the "Y" they will organize you by belts.

These martial arts you've described -- although they don't "have" belts, they still "wear" belts to ... hold up their pants... right?

Yes I wear a black belt but it holds the top closed not the pants up and in no way designates my skill level.

 

[Schadenfreude]

I've seen *plenty* of "Martial Arts Dojos", and I use that term VEEEEERY loosely, where yes, black belts do signify their rank, but I can virtually guarentee that any of my kids that I teach can go in there and put some major hurt on their senior belts . . ..

(Notice I didn't say *I* can do it )

 

[MystikMango]

...I can virtually guarentee that any of my kids that I teach can go in there and put some major hurt on their senior belts . . ..

That's a good practice, promote the hurt. If you were any level of teacher you wouldn't make a coment like that.

 

[Electric Amish]

Daniel LaRusso: Hey, what kind of belt do you have?
Miyagi: Canvas. JC Penny. Three ninety-eight.

 

[kenshorin]

Originally posted by: MystikMango

...I can virtually guarentee that any of my kids that I teach can go in there and put some major hurt on their senior belts . . ..

That's a good practice, promote the hurt. If you were any level of teacher you wouldn't make a coment like that.

He said "could" not "should"... hell I've seen some karate schools where a troop of girlscouts could walk in there and clean house. Statement is cool by me. Of course if I found out my students actually *did* go to a school and do it there would be hell to pay...

Black belt is a relative thing. A lot of schools (McDojos as they are known amongst the MA community) pump black belts out quickly for instant financial gain. They fleece the student of $$$ before the retention rate kicks in. In my experience (been doing karate for almost 13 years...) anything less than 4 years hinders the student's progress going forward. Unfortunately, many of these storefront schools will give students black belts in half that. The two year point is the worst point to give it because the lessons have sunk in but the moves are awkward at best. And before someone says "yeah but what if I train six days a week" its not a factor. Overall time means more time devoted to thinking about martial arts, more time to have amassed more info. 2 years is still two years worth of stuff coming up.

 

[sillymofo]

Different disciplines have different belt colors structure, a black belt in TaeKwonDo is not the same as it is in Kungfu.

 

[kenshorin]

Originally posted by: cr4zymofo
Different disciplines have different belt colors structure, a black belt in TaeKwonDo is not the same as it is in Kungfu.

yeah but most due to the whole craze of "black belt" almost all use the color black to signify the big daddy of all belts. (until they get into the funky striped ones... OMG thats just a horrorshow)

 

[sillymofo]

Originally posted by: kenshorin

Originally posted by: cr4zymofo Different disciplines have different belt colors structure, a black belt in TaeKwonDo is not the same as it is in Kungfu.

yeah but most due to the whole craze of "black belt" almost all use the color black to signify be big daddy of all belts. (until they get into the funky striped ones... OMG thats just a horrorshow)

Well, I don't know what stripes you're talking about, but if they're just a little stripe accross the belt, it shows the advancement within that belt. You don't go from one color to another, you advance until you can get to another color, usually there are three advancements before you can get the next color belt.

 

[merlocka]

Martial arts belts are one of the oldest pyramid scams. You pay $100 to test for a yellow/orange/green/blue/purple/brown/red belt and $200-300 for black.

Each time you test, your teacher get's a piece, and his "superior" get's a taste of that action. In return, the "masters" provide credibility to the school and a piece of paper that says you are l33t karate kid.

I love some new schools which break this out further into belts with stripes and crap. It's such a joke.... Americans have turned TKD into "Take-My-Dough"

Belts do keep the kids interested in it though. It's an easy way for youth to understand the reward for practice & mastery. For adults who care about martial arts belts, I feel sorry for.

That being said, a black belt can be meaninful or meaningless depending on the teacher/student.

And FYI - the traditional meaning of a black belt is to signify a "student" rather than an expert. The masters wouldn't wear those stupid uniforms.

 

[kage69]

Like almost every other martial arts thread in here, I feel dirty and ashamed for reading this.
Too many keyboardjutsu practitioners trying to sound knowledgable.


This "dojo" sounds like another Korean marketing system. The kung fu equivalent of a black belt would be a red sash. Black belts are ordained upon students who have reached shodan, or first degree black belt. In classical bujutsu, this is the point where a student is considered to really start learning. Pre-dan belt levels, or kyus, predominately focus on conditioning, basic combat, and forms. Of course it's going to differ depending on the dojo, kwoon, or dojang in question. I agree with the traditional Japanese view on belt ranks: one year of study (minimun) per kyu/dan rank.
Again, it will depend on the style in question, but it really sounds like this school is trying to capitalize on the Western perception of a black belt equaling mastery. A practice all too common in The Age of The Soccor Mom I'm afraid.

 

[kenshorin]

Originally posted by: cr4zymofo

Originally posted by: kenshorin

Originally posted by: cr4zymofo Different disciplines have different belt colors structure, a black belt in TaeKwonDo is not the same as it is in Kungfu.

yeah but most due to the whole craze of "black belt" almost all use the color black to signify be big daddy of all belts. (until they get into the funky striped ones... OMG thats just a horrorshow)

Well, I don't know what stripes you're talking about, but if they're just a little stripe accross the belt, it shows the advancement within that belt. You don't go from one color to another, you advance until you can get to another color, usually there are three advancements before you can get the next color belt.

Nah, I'm not talking about the electrical tape stripes, I'm talking about belts like this red and white thing. Now a black belt isn't enough, in an effort to be the extreme Soke, Professor Shihan Great-Grandmaster people actually WEAR these things. Ugh.

 

[kenshorin]

Originally posted by: kage69
Like almost every other martial arts thread in here, I feel dirty and ashamed for reading this.
Too many keyboardjutsu practitioners trying to sound knowledgable.


This "dojo" sounds like another Korean marketing system. The kung fu equivalent of a black belt would be a red sash. Black belts are ordained upon students who have reached shodan, or first degree black belt. In classical bujutsu, this is the point where a student is considered to really start learning. Pre-dan belt levels, or kyus, predominately focus on conditioning, basic combat, and forms. Of course it's going to differ depending on the dojo, kwoon, or dojang in question. I agree with the traditional Japanese view on belt ranks: one year of study (minimun) per kyu/dan rank.
Again, it will depend on the style in question, but it really sounds like this school is trying to capitalize on the Western perception of a black belt equaling mastery. A practice all too common in The Age of The Soccor Mom I'm afraid.

I'd hate to say this, but your post triggered my gag reflex as well. I've seen opening lines like that a thousand times... get into a pissing contest over "who's budo is better, and everyone is a budo newb compared with my 1337 bvd0 5ki11z."

Now I don't want to get into a pissing match... but...

In classical bujutsu, there were no belts. Jigoro Kano developed the rank system in the 1920's. I'd hardly count that as classical. The closest thing to any semblance of rank was that some koryu contained a menkyo or menkyo kaiden, basically meaning the student had learned all the teacher had and was free to teach. But you are right, discussing martial arts on a tech geek forum is pointless at best. I guess its up to those in the know to educate though. The whole "black belt is where the learning starts" is just another piece of martial arts doublespeak. Too many instructors try to sound like philosophers, and sometimes the sh!t like that line sticks. That phrase is one of many that just make me groan. Learning occurs throughout. It starts the moment one learns the first punch, kick, or breakfall. It doesn't accelerate just because you reached a level.

If anyone really wants to know more about these topics though, it'd be a good idea to lurk some martial arts forums. E-Budo is a great one that I post to. Anything you could think to ask has probably been beaten to death a thousand times in martial arts forums.

 

[kage69]

I'd hate to say this, but your post triggered my gag reflex as well. I've seen opening lines like that a thousand times... get into a pissing contest over "who's budo is better, and everyone is a budo newb compared with my 1337 bvd0 5ki11z." Now I don't want to get into a pissing match... but...

I'll see your gag and raise you one. You don't know what your talking about. Classical bujutsu encompasses a variety of Japanese martial arts popular during feudal times (archery, fencing, grappling, spear fighting, etc). And yes, belts were worn by students when studying jujutsu, which represents the unarmed system of combat used by the samurai. Jigoro Kano took his knowledge of jujutsu and modified it into the less-lethal system we know as judo, and originally intended it as a method of physical exercise, development, and sport. I used classical bujutsu as an example as it's the most honest one I could think of and the one I'm most familiar with. Note too I never even mentioned Kano or judo. I'm sorry if my repeating the consensus amoung Japanese teachers bothers you, but too bad. For the record, I also didn't say anything to the tune of 'my style is better than yours' - if you disagree, you need only quote the text which brought you to that. If by chance you took offense at my remark about Korean money making systems, well then I should clarify. I shouldn't lump hapkido and hwrangdo into the same group as TKD. TKD is however, more of a business than a effective method of combat, and I simply have no respect for any style which likes to blow it's own horn, yet requires cross-training in order to be effective.

 

[Gyrene]

Belts are meaningless. They were used to hold up the gi/dobok. The reason black belts are used nowadays to define mastery of an art, though in some style they still aren't, is because the belt to hold up the clothing was white. But, after many years of training, that white belt would become darker and darker from dirt/mud/grime/etc. Thus, the darker your belt, the longer you had been training.

Note: For kenshorin and kage69. No sense arguing. Belts were used, but they had no meaning.

 

[PunDogg]

in Tang Soo Do, which is what i took for 10 years, there is no black anywhere in the uniform, even the "black" betlt is a dark blue color. this is because black represents evil. So for Tang Soo Do, there is no black at all on the uniform

Dogg

 

[Xenon14]

I personally have taken martial arts for 5 years. During that time I had skipped a belt color after one of my belt qualifications, and at the end of the 5 years i was still 2 belts away from Black. That school was hardcore, I got my a$$ kicked daily. I had a friend go to another school, which was very popular and not suprrisingly overpriced. I've sat in on a couple of classes and a lot of the black belts earned it (my friend was one of them) simply on the longevity of their stay at the school. I think it took him about 2.5 years.

What I'm getting at is that the black belts that you saw were, in fact, black belts, but probably not skilled or did not deserve to wear those belts based on their skills.