Market Socialism?

[jordanecmusic]

ok so i went to the apple store to compare my 20$ pair of studio monitoring headphones (sony mdr-v150) to the bose quiet comfort 15's and the senheiser eh150s (bose being 300$ and senheiser being $150) and my headphones decimated both of them in sound quality.


Might as that may be that the bose has really good noise cancellation, the quality was horrible compared to the headphones i use for production because of the issue with frequency response

the sennheisers had a 18hz-18khz frequency response...which makes no fucking sense to do if the average human being hears 20hz-20khz frequency! why would they add bass but reduce the highs and sell it commercially to people

the bose headphones i cannot find the frequency responses because they did not put them anywhere becasue they dont want people to know their tech is a load of overpriced garbage but assuming that sony's noise cancellation headphones (that sound better) cannot reach 20hz-20khz due to cancellation constraints and active equalization techniques used in ALL noise cancelling headphones, i must assume the same

Knowing this, why do companies such as bose get away with selling dog shit for such high prices?

 

[PaneInTheGlass]

I came across this article just yesterday: BOSE Acoustimass - Better Profits Through Marketing

I suspect that it is neither the only, nor the best article dissecting BOSE systems, but it satisfied my superficial curiosity on the subject. In general though, I try not to think about it. The unfortunate truth is that any discussion of BOSE systems only serves to justify the assertion that they are "mainstream speakers discussed by audiophiles world-wide".

 

[jordanecmusic]

audiophiles are searching for good sound equipment, not "booming bass" or "clear highs"

the bose website does not even make note of the frequency response of the headphones that they release! Very unaudiophile like of you bose. The Dr Dre Beats website does the same.

 

[mmntech]

Owning a Bose is a status thing, not an audio thing. I'll always be a Grado fan. They don't look like much but they've got it where it counts, and cost a fraction of the price.

 

[blotto]

Bose is not a brand that "Audiophiles" would ever even look at. Bose and Beats are two products that people think are good because they were told so by a commercial or Lebron James. There are Dozens of brands of headphones that will perform better for less money.
The Senns you looked at are one of their entry level models, Sennheiser tradionally excels at higher end open headphones. As we speak I'm listening to my HD650s and smiling ear to ear.
If you want to listen to a top notch portable headphone, check out the Sennheiser HD-25 II. It's small and can be driven by a typical portable device. Should be between $150 and $200.

 

[velillen]

Owning a Bose is a status thing, not an audio thing.

That couldnt be any more true. Guys i work with always tlak about wanting a Bose home theater just cause its Bose. They just go by the name more than anything else. I helped one guy pick some speakers and he was amazed that he got a better sound for less money than the Bose setup he had been looking at. of course at the same time i can mention martin logan or B&W and they wont have any idea what those are either. but mention bose and its instantly high quality great sound in peoples mind.



As for the Dr Dre beats...meh i thought they sounded good. Only tried them on instore at a bestbuy. They had the Dr Dre, the like beats, and the studio models or something ($200, 150, and 99) and the Dr Dre definitely sounded better than the other two. Would i buy them? Nope im fine with my $30 buck heads phones as im usually running when im listening to music

 

[0roo0roo]

They are good enough, the market has a problem with being filled with bad info or no info. Spec means nothing, customers can't really try things out and really compare in most stores, so you have what you have.

 

[NutBucket]

This is the only Bose system someone actually concerned about sound quality would love to have:

Pictured are, from top to bottom:

901 Series VI EQ
Commercial Speaker Selector
Spatial Control Receiver Series I
Spatial Control Receiver Series II
1801 Power Amp

The speakers are:
802 Series II
901 Series IV
901 Series VI

Definitely would not mind having that in my listening room.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I actually found it sorta ironic that Monster, having built their company on cables, didn't even try to get into the audiophile cable market with their own headphones. Boutique cable companies sell lineout dock cables for hundreds of dollars, and Monster didn't even try.

That couldnt be any more true. Guys i work with always tlak about wanting a Bose home theater just cause its Bose. They just go by the name more than anything else. I helped one guy pick some speakers and he was amazed that he got a better sound for less money than the Bose setup he had been looking at. of course at the same time i can mention martin logan or B&W and they wont have any idea what those are either. but mention bose and its instantly high quality great sound in peoples mind.



As for the Dr Dre beats...meh i thought they sounded good. Only tried them on instore at a bestbuy. They had the Dr Dre, the like beats, and the studio models or something ($200, 150, and 99) and the Dr Dre definitely sounded better than the other two. Would i buy them? Nope im fine with my $30 buck heads phones as im usually running when im listening to music

B&W have a pair of headphones now. I don't like them, in fact, I'd personally put them in the style over substance group. They seem aimed squarely at the Bose/Beats crowd but with a twist. I think they're a bit better than both, but not close to a lot of other headphones overall.

I think the Beats do well as they have a pronounced bass output which people focus on. I've seen people into speakers that get impressed because they didn't know headphones were capable of that. Often that coupled with the more intimate presentation which helps enhance detail and perceived clarity of headphones helps convince people of the quality. People coming from real cheap headphones/earbuds are another easy target.

Sadly, most people don't know that there are quite a lot of alternatives that match or even exceed those.

Of course, plenty still wouldn't buy those products over the Beats (they're a style/status symbol as much as anything), but a lot just don't know any better.

I was pleased Sony went after that market with, in my opinion a better sounding, more comfortable, better made, and I'd even say better (more interesting at least) looking headphone at a significantly lower price (XB500/700).

They are good enough, the market has a problem with being filled with bad info or no info. Spec means nothing, customers can't really try things out and really compare in most stores, so you have what you have.

Yeah. I mean, there's few places where they can compare headphones, even fewer where they can compare with their own equipment (MP3 player, this can have a big impact on sound too with impedance mismatches and things like that) and music.

People don't know what any of the specs mean. Even people that know some don't even get it right a lot (there's a lot of low impedance means a portable player can handle it fine). Frequency response really doesn't tell you much of anything, and people don't know how to read most audio charts to understand them.

I can understand why people don't buy into audio fidelity as the snake oil is rampant, but at the same time, they're still doing it by refusing to pay attention to it at all and buying inferior products based on looks and/or marketing.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

ok so i went to the apple store to compare my 20$ pair of studio monitoring headphones (sony mdr-v150) to the bose quiet comfort 15's and the senheiser eh150s (bose being 300$ and senheiser being $150) and my headphones decimated both of them in sound quality.


Might as that may be that the bose has really good noise cancellation, the quality was horrible compared to the headphones i use for production because of the issue with frequency response

the sennheisers had a 18hz-18khz frequency response...which makes no fucking sense to do if the average human being hears 20hz-20khz frequency! why would they add bass but reduce the highs and sell it commercially to people

the bose headphones i cannot find the frequency responses because they did not put them anywhere becasue they dont want people to know their tech is a load of overpriced garbage but assuming that sony's noise cancellation headphones (that sound better) cannot reach 20hz-20khz due to cancellation constraints and active equalization techniques used in ALL noise cancelling headphones, i must assume the same

Knowing this, why do companies such as bose get away with selling dog shit for such high prices?

Since you raised the economics issue that also ties itself to certain . . . ideologies . . . you must know -- or should be informed -- "free" markets are often imperfect. They are not perfectly competitive -- sometimes far from that ideal. To work "perfectly," consumers and producers should have accurate, complete information. But they don't. Errors occur in markets all the time. Markets don't properly address the fulfillment or supply of certain types of goods.

So -- certainly -- some company like BOSE -- with its name branding -- can produce dog-shit and there are plenty of gullible uninformed buyers willing to pay for the poop.

 

[sdifox]

free market depends on consumer choice. Consumers are mostly stupid sheeple, marketing wins.

 

[A5]

ok so i went to the apple store to compare my 20$ pair of studio monitoring headphones (sony mdr-v150) to the bose quiet comfort 15's and the senheiser eh150s (bose being 300$ and senheiser being $150) and my headphones decimated both of them in sound quality.


Might as that may be that the bose has really good noise cancellation, the quality was horrible compared to the headphones i use for production because of the issue with frequency response

the sennheisers had a 18hz-18khz frequency response...which makes no fucking sense to do if the average human being hears 20hz-20khz frequency! why would they add bass but reduce the highs and sell it commercially to people

the bose headphones i cannot find the frequency responses because they did not put them anywhere becasue they dont want people to know their tech is a load of overpriced garbage but assuming that sony's noise cancellation headphones (that sound better) cannot reach 20hz-20khz due to cancellation constraints and active equalization techniques used in ALL noise cancelling headphones, i must assume the same

Knowing this, why do companies such as bose get away with selling dog shit for such high prices?

This isn't nearly as important as you think it is. A person with "perfect" hearing can theoretically hear up to ~22 KHz, but it's pretty much impossible for anyone who has been alive to still hear that due to hearing damage. If you play a frequency sweep over some good speakers, you'll probably stop hearing the tone somewhere in the low teens (and you'll find it irritating well before then). You can add a few KHz to that by re-doing the test in an anechoic chamber or dramatically increasing the volume, but that's obviously not typical of any real listening environment.

The headphones probably sounded bad because of cheap drivers, not from "robbing" you of that extra 2 KHz that you probably can't hear anyway.

 

[NutBucket]

Just to add to the frequency response discussion, it doesn't matter what the stated frequency response is. What matters is how flat the output of the driver is across the claimed frequency range.

IMHO most people like headphones that tend towards being bass heavy.

 

[jordanecmusic]

This isn't nearly as important as you think it is. A person with "perfect" hearing can theoretically hear up to ~22 KHz, but it's pretty much impossible for anyone who has been alive to still hear that due to hearing damage. If you play a frequency sweep over some good speakers, you'll probably stop hearing the tone somewhere in the low teens (and you'll find it irritating well before then). You can add a few KHz to that by re-doing the test in an anechoic chamber or dramatically increasing the volume, but that's obviously not typical of any real listening environment.

The headphones probably sounded bad because of cheap drivers, not from "robbing" you of that extra 2 KHz that you probably can't hear anyway.

the construction was great on the senheisers. looked like they would last a long time since the band was made of stainless steel...i think. What I dont understand is why senheiser, of all brands, would put cheap drivers inside a 150$ pair of headphones. Senheiser releasing a pair of 150$ headphones that sounds inferior compared to my pair of 20$ sonys just does not make any sense to me. Could it be that my headphones are boasted as Studio Monitoring Headphones but the Senheisers werent? I will mention that the Senheisers did not have any active circuitry built into the headphones for noise cancellation so that could not be the culprit.

 

[Anarchist420]

Sony makes pretty damn good inexpensive headphones. Not sure why, but they do have great sound quality. Perhaps because they have such a high sensitivity rating.

I've noticed they're made in malaysia, although I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[corwin]

So is it just me that finds it amusing this test was done in an Apple store, arguably the "king" of marketing? :whiste:

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Why would someone think this was socialism? This is capitalism in all its glory, complete with irrational consumers and misleading producers.

 

[Anarchist420]

So is it just me that finds it amusing this test was done in an Apple store, arguably the "king" of marketing? :whiste:

I'd say so since Sony makes pretty damn good headphones for $30 or less.

I feel sorry for people who buy stuff based upon "marketing". The ipad and iPad 2 are like the only good and reasonably priced things apple's ever made. iTunes suck (a lot of the songs I listen to are unacceptable not in lossless), their computers are overpriced POS, my monitor is overpriced for what it is as, their OS isn't any more secure than windows especially given the smaller user base (although I honestly don't know whether they've marketed having a more secure operating system although a lot of Apple fanboys says that windows is too insecure when they haven't even used it), the list goes on.

 

[corwin]

I'd say so since Sony makes pretty damn good headphones for $30 or less.

I feel sorry for people who buy stuff based upon "marketing". The ipad and iPad 2 are like the only good and reasonably priced things apple's ever made. iTunes suck (a lot of the songs I listen to are unacceptable not in lossless), their computers are overpriced POS, my monitor is overpriced for what it is as, their OS isn't any more secure than windows especially given the smaller user base (although I honestly don't know whether they've marketed having a more secure operating system although a lot of Apple fanboys says that windows is too insecure when they haven't even used it), the list goes on.

That was kind of my point

I'd wager that 90% plus of people who pay for those overpriced headphones can't actually hear any real difference and do so just for the "status" of them...if it's expensive it's GOT to be good!

 

[jordanecmusic]

That was kind of my point

I'd wager that 90% plus of people who pay for those overpriced headphones can't actually hear any real difference and do so just for the "status" of them...if it's expensive it's GOT to be good!

kind of like building your own pc vs buying an alienware.

 

[homercles337]

ok so i went to the apple store to compare my 20$ pair of studio monitoring headphones (sony mdr-v150) to the bose quiet comfort 15's and the senheiser eh150s (bose being 300$ and senheiser being $150) and my headphones decimated both of them in sound quality.

Decimate means to destroy a tenth of something. I think you meant obliterate. Just an FYI.

 

[jordanecmusic]

Decimate means to destroy a tenth of something. I think you meant obliterate. Just an FYI.

Wow I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[velillen]

B&W have a pair of headphones now. I don't like them, in fact, I'd personally put them in the style over substance group. They seem aimed squarely at the Bose/Beats crowd but with a twist. I think they're a bit better than both, but not close to a lot of other headphones overall.

I think the Beats do well as they have a pronounced bass output which people focus on. I've seen people into speakers that get impressed because they didn't know headphones were capable of that. Often that coupled with the more intimate presentation which helps enhance detail and perceived clarity of headphones helps convince people of the quality. People coming from real cheap headphones/earbuds are another easy target. [/quot]

i didnt even know B&W had headphones lol. I honestly dont use my ipod all that often for music anymore. And when i do its usually just background music anyways (when using headphones that is) while i try to fall asleep on a plane or ferry ride. I have some cheap sony earbud style ones that were like 30 bucks at target. Sound fine to me. I'd go for a pair of the like "beats" type but they are just to bulky for me. That and im cheap and have other things id rather spend money on

I can understand why people don't buy into audio fidelity as the snake oil is rampant, but at the same time, they're still doing it by refusing to pay attention to it at all and buying inferior products based on looks and/or marketing.

Its not just audio though. Marketing is huge in every aspect. people dont always want to do research or just want brand recognition. Im a skier and see it all the time in products. People paying 600-700 bucks for a jacket when you can get the same thing minus the name for 200-300. Same with skis. Ive heard people talking about how they have to have the latest Solomon/Atmoic/whoever big name ski's top of the line models. Then they see my skis which are a small company and ask all sorts of questions not realizing there are better/cheaper options.

 

[Railgun]

Decimate means to destroy a tenth of something. I think you meant obliterate. Just an FYI.

What dictionary are you looking at? While that definition is correct, the original use is accurate. You're pointing out just one definition.

Darkswordsman,

I think Monster did try audiophile sheerly by the price the put on those things.

 

[Gintaras]

the sennheisers had a 18hz-18khz frequency response...which makes no fucking sense to do if the average human being hears 20hz-20khz frequency! why would they add bass but reduce the highs and sell it commercially to people

Average doesn't not hear close to that - 20hz-20khz,
Anyone can check what you can hear:

http://www.engr.uky.edu/~donohue/audio/fsear.html

I myself didn't check because I don't "live by the numbers"

I've bought Philips SHE9621 earphones @ TJMaxx for $13. Frequency Response: 6 - 23500 Hz. Those are just numbers, I don't believe how manufacturer marks their product. But my Philips sounds great.

I just need to get new media player - to replace my broken Visual-Land MP5 player.
I need one, that plays .APE or .FLAC files, not much fan of MP3's