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Marines delay plan to require pullups in female fitness test after half of recruits f

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Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,777
3
0
I just don't see the point in risking and/or sacrificing soliders' lives just so radical feminists can jerk off.

Nature is not fair, war is not fair, irrational application of philosophy is no reason to sacrifice lives.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,514
24
76
Police and firemen don't have to carry a 25 pound M240 SAW and 500 rounds of ammunition, plus the 3 days of food and water, plus the body armor, over mountainous terrain. All told it can be anywhere from 70 to 100 pounds that each individual marine must carry for themself. We're not talking about desk duty or nurses here, we're talking about infantry. So the marine to her left and the marine to her right need to carry her shit for her to make it "fair"?

There are plenty of butch women who could kick my ass and would be just fine in the infantry. Maybe they don't want to join up, though. Not everyone gets to do what they want to do.

This is how I feel about these women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAWjW6p5TUg
Did you know R. Lee Ermey was originally hired as a consultant for Full Metal Jacket? He was supposed to train the actor slated to play the Drill Sergeant. But he ended up being so much better than the actor that Kubrick went with Ermey instead. Much of his lines in the movie are off the cough improvised too.

One of my all time favorite acts in a movie, just a perfect match.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,960
33
91
Until someone develops a foolproof counter to ICBMs. Granted that likely isn't happening anytime soon either but it's certainly not implausible.

Women wanting to be on the front lines isn't in question, the issue is whether they can perform equally to men in infantry combat. The answer is in most cases no. I just don't see the point in risking and/or sacrificing soliders' lives just so radical feminists can jerk off.

Nature is not fair, war is not fair, irrational application of philosophy is no reason to sacrifice lives.
I was more wondering that when push comes to shove the Soviets seem to have no problem with employing woman in front line combat situations to push the fascists out of their country. I would think if woman equated themselves in frontline combat duty against the Nazi War machine should their ability to function under front line combat conditions really be questioned? I cannot think of much worse combat conditions than the Eastern front.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
8,819
193
106
I can't help but feel like there is a spectrum of how a society can view/treat women, homosexuals, etc and somewhere like Afghanistan represents going way too far in one direction, and western nations now represent going way too far in the other direction.

I think the closest to the right balance was something like the US in the 1950's. I'm not saying it was perfect then, I think there was some adjustment necessary to open up more opportunities to women, but I think we overshot the mark by a very large margin when we sought to correct those.
No.

Just no.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
I was more wondering that when push comes to shove the Soviets seem to have no problem with employing woman in front line combat situations to push the fascists out of their country. I would think if woman equated themselves in frontline combat duty against the Nazi War machine should their ability to function under front line combat conditions really be questioned? I cannot think of much worse combat conditions than the Eastern front.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II#Soviet_Women_Soldiers:_Propaganda_and_Lived_Experiences

The Soviet Union deployed women snipers extensively, and to great effect, including Nina Alexeyevna Lobkovskaya and Ukrainian Lyudmila Pavlichenko (who killed over 300 German soldiers). The Soviets found that sniper duties fit women well, since good snipers are patient, deliberate, have a high level of aerobic conditioning, and normally avoid hand-to-hand combat.

Women served as machine gunners, tank drivers, medics, communication personnel and political officers.
Keep in mind that this is old-school tactics, so a "machine gunner" was someone who manned a fixed or semi-fixed emplacement. They may have been on the front lines, but they were almost always in a support or axillary role of some variety. The mainline riflemen were male.

So yeah, women can drive vehicles, shoot guns, and grasp tactics as well as any man. But all other things being equal a male solider will be superior to a female soldier by virtue of physical superiority.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
I was more wondering that when push comes to shove the Soviets seem to have no problem with employing woman in front line combat situations to push the fascists out of their country. I would think if woman equated themselves in frontline combat duty against the Nazi War machine should their ability to function under front line combat conditions really be questioned? I cannot think of much worse combat conditions than the Eastern front.
The Soviets were both facing a very real threat of being annihilated and utterly without regard for any of their peasants, often killing civilian survivors after retaking ground because surviving was seen as proof of not fighting against the Germans. Hardly surprising they would throw women into combat. More surprising that some women excelled at some combat roles, but it makes sense.

My fear is that instead of looking to see if using those few women who can meet the standards in combat makes sense and how they might best be deployed, the standards will merely once again be lowered so that most women in the Marines can qualify. So far the Marines have largely dodged the Army foolishness on the subject. Hopefully they can do so once again. I'd hate to think of Marines being funneled into predictable kill zones because a quarter of them cannot scale walls, or a squad spending ten minutes crossing a wall rather than two minutes (an important difference if mortar rounds may drop in unannounced) because some of the Marines require a Marine on each side of the wall to boost them up and lower them down.
 

gotsmack

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2001
5,768
0
71
Realistically with Nuclear Weapons a full-scale infantry war isn't probably going to happen. We will continue to have low intensity conflicts like we currently are seeing.

The Soviet Union when push came to shove during the Great Patriotic War had no problem throwing woman into front line combat against the invading Fascist forces. Of course they had man-power shortages. However when push came to shove Russian woman where perfectly willing to volunteer for frontline combat duty.
Russian women are more manly than the majority of US men. If you know Russian or Eastern European women (not born here), then you know it's true.

http://breakbrunch.com/lol/8095

http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2370541/USA/
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
Pull ups aren't important. It doesn't matter that you can't pull your body weight up. It's not like, I don't know, you might need to pull your body weight, plus 120 more pounds up a wall in combat. I'm sure we won't see walls for too much longer in combat, right? :rolleyes:

pfft. Just call in an artillery barrage or air strike and no more wall to scale :cool:
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
17,464
1,712
126
A lot of fire departments are volunteer and a lot of their calls are medical in nature, not actual fires.

For medical calls lower response times can save lives, so have a larger pool of volunteer firefighters to draw from is good, and a woman can perform CPR perfectly well.

My son is an EMT and what happens when they have to haul the 600 pounder out of the back room of a single wide trailer?

It happens a lot.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
My son is an EMT and what happens when they have to haul the 600 pounder out of the back room of a single wide trailer?

It happens a lot.
Ask any rabid feminist if she wants an all female fire engine to show up to rescue her unconscious body from her burning home.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
I'm a feminist and in my view feminism is about equality. If women are having trouble meeting the requirements, tough shit; it's the same requirement for everyone. Lowering the standards to meet quotas is absurd.
The issue here is how many feminist attempt to seek "equality" and how it has to do with the manner they go about it achieving it, i.e. tearing men down and using the victim card to have standards changed to better suit women at the cost of men. You could be all for treating both sexes equal but expecting the same results when there are clear differences in some areas or attempting to subvert those results is why feminism often ends up being more destructive in achieving its assumed goals, if they are even achievable in the first place. So no matter how many Hollywood romanticized and simplified movies you may see with women acting like the female Space Marine in the movies "Aliens" or the fiction that is "G.I Jane" the reality of life tends to be much different and far less flattery.
 

Tango

Senior member
May 9, 2002
244
0
0
There are very, very, very fit and strong girls who are not the best at pull-ups, unless they have a substantial amount of specific training:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2013/03/14/the-mechanics-of-the-pull-up-and-why-women-can-absolutely-do-them/

In fact a few months ago I read an interview with a professional rock climber, which means superhero-level strong, who admitted she could not do three consecutive pull-ups, nor cared to since it would not help in any way her climbing.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
There are very, very, very fit and strong girls who are not the best at pull-ups, unless they have a substantial amount of specific training:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2013/03/14/the-mechanics-of-the-pull-up-and-why-women-can-absolutely-do-them/

In fact a few months ago I read an interview with a professional rock climber, which means superhero-level strong, who admitted she could not do three consecutive pull-ups, nor cared to since it would not help in any way her climbing.
Is said rock climber climbing with 80 lbs of gear on her back, and can she climb as fast as an equivalently experienced male rock climber?

There's your answer.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
Russian women are more manly than the majority of US men. If you know Russian or Eastern European women (not born here), then you know it's true.

http://breakbrunch.com/lol/8095

http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/2370541/USA/
Oh really?

He had just returned from Russia, where he took part in a documentary on the subject of women and femininity.

'Russian women don't have that hardness of women in England and America,' he said.

'They get their men because they are extremely feminine and they listen to their men, yet they are not regressive. They have managed to hold on to an old-fashioned prettiness.

'In contrast, most of the women I see in Europe have become warriors. They are feisty and aggressive.

'They see relationships as business transactions, and they treat dating the same way they climb the corporate ladder, which makes them look and seem hard.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1039030/Fast-track-femininity-Why-competing-men-left-women-touch-feminine-side.html
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
As much as I love these Soviet-Super Women stories from WW2, let's not forget the high level of propaganda from that time period. 99% of these stories are pure trash and we shouldn't be basing our policies on it.
 

Tango

Senior member
May 9, 2002
244
0
0
Is said rock climber climbing with 80 lbs of gear on her back, and can she climb as fast as an equivalently experienced male rock climber?

There's your answer.
80 lbs of gear is not common in sport climbing, but it is in long trad routes. In which she will still climb better and harder than 99% of male climbers. She just uses her legs very efficiently.

The very top male climbers are usually pushing harder grades than the very top female, but there have been exceptions. When Lynn Hill freed El Cap in a day no man in the world could do that, and none could for quite a long time.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
11,300
2,552
136
I'd like to know that the "person" sharing a fighting hole with me is up to the task of surviving hand to hand combat against a seasoned determined enemy. I'd like to know if that "person" won't crap out on me when things get near hopeless and the urge to flee the fight is now "a viable option". I'd like to know that having PMS is not going to be anywhere near a problem in the middle of a heavy fight and changing out tampons/sanitary pads in the field is not going to require extra security and/or risk to personnel.

I'd also like to know if some kind of quota must be achieved for "successful implementation" to occur to make the folks pushing for this giddy and if this desired for quota will in any way take precedence over "common sense".

I'd like to know if the ability to be "fit to fight" as a unit will be compromised in any way for the sake of some kind of political agenda. I'd also like to know how much pressure is being exerted on our military high echelon to "expedite" this "program" and just who is applying the pressure. I'd even like to know what our mililtary leaders really and truly think about this program.

I'd like to know if elite organizations like our Delta Force, SEAL Teams etc. are also required to "get with the program".

Just ask'in.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Not really. It's the fist time I hear about this.
Which should give you some idea how much stock to put in it.

I can remember stories of my 90 pound great grandmother whose house burned in her eighties. The burned out shell was condemned and she could not get a permit to rebuild, only to demolish it. Instead she pried off a piece of plywood in the back and gutted it, then built a slightly smaller house inside her old house, then demolished the shell. She did this entirely by herself, including carrying shingles up a ladder. Every culture has women who are tough as nails.

I'd like to know that the "person" sharing a fighting hole with me is up to the task of surviving hand to hand combat against a seasoned determined enemy. I'd like to know if that "person" won't crap out on me when things get near hopeless and the urge to flee the fight is now "a viable option". I'd like to know that having PMS is not going to be anywhere near a problem in the middle of a heavy fight and changing out tampons/sanitary pads in the field is not going to require extra security and/or risk to personnel.

I'd also like to know if some kind of quota must be achieved for "successful implementation" to occur to make the folks pushing for this giddy and if this desired for quota will in any way take precedence over "common sense".

I'd like to know if the ability to be "fit to fight" as a unit will be compromised in any way for the sake of some kind of political agenda. I'd also like to know how much pressure is being exerted on our military high echelon to "expedite" this "program" and just who is applying the pressure. I'd even like to know what our mililtary leaders really and truly think about this program.

I'd like to know if elite organizations like our Delta Force, SEAL Teams etc. are also required to "get with the program".

Just ask'in.
The army had a similar come to Jesus meeting when it discovered that most female soldiers could throw a fragmentation grenade beyond its lethal radius. They were studying the feasibility of changing to a smaller, lighter grenade with a smaller fragment radius when cooler heads questioned the wisdom of intentionally handicapping our infantry, especially given that we already have mini-grenades in Special Forces.
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
Personally I think it's funny that people think the muscles used for a pull-up (biceps) are the same muscles used for climbing (legs).

Still and all, if there's a combat requirement for upper arm strength and a woman doesn't have it then no, she shouldn't be in a combat unit.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
Personally I think it's funny that people think the muscles used for a pull-up (biceps) are the same muscles used for climbing (legs).

Still and all, if there's a combat requirement for upper arm strength and a woman doesn't have it then no, she shouldn't be in a combat unit.
Is it as funny as people comparing an elite mountain climber climbing a mountain to an average grunt scaling a 10 foot wall?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
16,131
4,974
136
There are very, very, very fit and strong girls who are not the best at pull-ups, unless they have a substantial amount of specific training:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2013/03/14/the-mechanics-of-the-pull-up-and-why-women-can-absolutely-do-them/

In fact a few months ago I read an interview with a professional rock climber, which means superhero-level strong, who admitted she could not do three consecutive pull-ups, nor cared to since it would not help in any way her climbing.

The problem I have with this example is that professional rock climbing is largely a solo endeavor under specific circumstances performed with work-saving gear. I don't feel it has much bearing on the dynamic nature of infantry combat, a decidedly team based activity.

I'm not sure the 'work arounds' for climbing would translate too well to the battlefield, I guess is what I'm saying. The wounded 200lb rifleman who is being evacuated under fire would definitely prefer his rescuer to be able to do a few pull ups I'll wager. I know I would.
 

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