Many Now predicting Double-Dip Recession

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Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Why republicans getting control of congress could be a problem.

Edit: linkfix

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticke...ontrol-may-be-bad-for-wall-street-517361.html

What a bunch of hogwash.
First, if the Senate can’t pass the financial reform bill soon, it may never pass, creating even more market uncertainty.
He's pulling this from his ass, he's assuming the market wants the reform bill. Referring to evidence not presented.

“this scenario -- a gridlocked scenario -- is not what the markets want."
Uh, the markets have done great whenever the party controlling the white house does not control the congress. It creates stability and allows companies to do better planning since they have a better idea of what to expect. Only things that both parties agree on can pass, so there's less chance of crazy things like the health care fiasco coming down the pike.

“You could have austerity creep in, you could have a strong vocal group saying no more stimulus.”
Again, making a big assumption that the market wants more stimulus. I haven't seen any evidence of that.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
IMO, unemployment is better viewed as welfare/humanitarian assistance to help cushion the blow for those harmed by the recession. But it is not the answer to lift us out of depression. If the current model of viewing unemployment/gov job funding as stimulous is continued (without an in GDP) the inevitable result is bankruptcy.

Fern


Agree completely. It is just moving the date when it will collapse with the hope that some unknown factor will change things.

People need to realize that the government does not have the solutions and start acting on their own to change things in their lives. If they continue to wait for the government to fix things they will likely find out they waited too late.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
What a bunch of hogwash. He's pulling this from his ass, he's assuming the market wants the reform bill. Referring to evidence not presented.


Uh, the markets have done great whenever the party controlling the white house does not control the congress. It creates stability and allows companies to do better planning since they have a better idea of what to expect. Only things that both parties agree on can pass, so there's less chance of crazy things like the health care fiasco coming down the pike.


Again, making a big assumption that the market wants more stimulus. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Investment, public and private, is what drives economic growth.

The markets hate uncertainty of any kind, and a rapid switch in power is uncertainty especially when it comes to "reigning in spending" and "stopping stimulus".
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Investment, public and private, is what drives economic growth.

The markets hate uncertainty of any kind, and a rapid switch in power is uncertainty especially when it comes to "reigning in spending" and "stopping stimulus".

That may or may not be true in this case, the reality is that nobody knows how the market would react to that scenario, but that clown is stating these things as if they are facts because he doesn't like the idea of the dems losing control of the house or senate. Incidentally, I don't think that's likely to happen anyway (either one), too big of a cushion at this point.

If one or the other were to flip (house or senate), it would be great for the country. We'd finally get gridlock back so the country could get back on the right track without idiots in DC screwing things up.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
LOL 3 years later people finally cluing in to Zebonomics. And it has nothing to do with balance sheets, stimuluses, Republicans or Democrats our problems are anthropological in nature and won't be corrected without pain of a depression to snap us back to reality, achievement and production. It's all good and natural. See Wiemar Germany and economic miracle. Or Great Depression followed by Greatest Generation. Adversity makes you stronger.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Handcuffs on the bankers and the lobbyists were the only thing that were going to help this recovery. Instead we paid all the fat cats first and allowed the people who brought the economy down to get their pay raises and crazy salaries of millions...

Who will pay for it?? The taxpayers is who
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Firstly, you're confusing some principals of taxation.

Tax credits are claimed on the following year's tax return. So, depending upon passage of any tax credit law it would be 3 to 15 months before they were realized by the taxpayer (who could then spend it).

Except tax credits with a deadline have immediate impact, if they're large enough. Tax cuts don't. This has been measured and proven quite conclusively, people save their tax cuts but businesses hire more immediately if there's a tax credit (but only if it's large enough which the recent one probably isn't).

Income tax rates reductions, OTOH, would be immediate. For employees their tax withholdings would decrease leaving more money in their hands immediately.

Except it has little to no effect on people's spending habits. Again, it has been shown quite convincingly that tax cuts in payroll taxes (unless they're massive) end up resulting in people saving more, not spending. It has no stimulative effect.

I do not view it as choice between only unemployment and tax breaks. As I've explained above unemployment benefits are not stimulous, or at least a very poor form of one no better than driving by throwing money out the car window. Also, as I've explained above I favor increased use of the SBA to provide funding for new and existing small businesses, a choice you don't mention in your post above.

It's not a question of you believing it, it's been statistically shown that unemployment payments are vastly more effective at increasing demand and spending than tax cuts. I have no idea what you're getting at with SBA or how that would stimulate spending by consumers, something you have yet again ignored is 68-70% of GDP.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Why are you selling it? Another failed investment on your part? :awe:

He realized after buying it from a crooked sheriff that people would have to stop, pay $5, and sign a release form before they could cross the bridge. That's all just too much hassle so now he's trying to offload it.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Again, we're not understanding each other. I thought you were referring to how fast the (refund) money got into the hands of taxpayers (to create demand by spending the money).

I care little at this time for studies etc that say won't spend the extra money. For one, our biggest problem has been people spending all they have plus what they can borrow. It's beyond vounter-intuative for anyone to claim that the extra money won't be spent. Tax reductions are not "magical money" that people treat differently. I'v ebeen tax CPA for about 30 years and seen many people who purposefully plan a getting a refund at April 15. These people all blow the money on something (vacation, new car downpayment etc), none put it into saving.

Moreover, too many people cannot now afford their bills, whether house payments or medical insurance/expense. But even if they did manage to save some or al of the money, that would be a good thing. Those saving would provide liquidity for other areas, something badly needed that none of the government's many efforts have so far been effective at helping.

Except tax credits with a deadline have immediate impact, if they're large enough. Tax cuts don't. This has been measured and proven quite conclusively, people save their tax cuts but businesses hire more immediately if there's a tax credit (but only if it's large enough which the recent one probably isn't).

If I understand you correctly, the Investment Tax Credit would be a good example of this - influencing behavior rather quickly (the 'refund' part comes later). While I generally think the ITC is a good thing, we're back to same proble(s): It's damn hard to bank financing for $250K of equipment, and who wants to? You buy when you need to because fo demand, generally we don't have enough demand to justify such outlays now.

As regards tax credits and hiring: It's not been proven it's been opined. To hire, unless the overnment starts crediting it as above 100% of the cost you must have a need. We mostly lack taht need now (although soem companies are doing overtime but that is because of another problem - uncertainty). Yes, the current credit for certain new hires is far too low to influence hiring in a meaningful way.

Except it has little to no effect on people's spending habits. Again, it has been shown quite convincingly that tax cuts in payroll taxes (unless they're massive) end up resulting in people saving more, not spending. It has no stimulative effect.

Addressed above

It's not a question of you believing it, it's been statistically shown that unemployment payments are vastly more effective at increasing demand and spending than tax cuts. I have no idea what you're getting at with SBA or how that would stimulate spending by consumers, something you have yet again ignored is 68-70% of GDP.

It apeared to me you were offering only two choices for what needs to be done for our economy (unemployment benefits v tax cuts). THe "SBA" remaks refer to one of my posts above where someone asked directly what do i suggest.

I have no idea what you're referring to when saying "something you have yet again ignored is 68-70% of GDP"

Fern
 
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Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
LOL 3 years later people finally cluing in to Zebonomics. And it has nothing to do with balance sheets, stimuluses, Republicans or Democrats our problems are anthropological in nature and won't be corrected without pain of a depression to snap us back to reality, achievement and production. It's all good and natural. See Wiemar Germany and economic miracle. Or Great Depression followed by Greatest Generation. Adversity makes you stronger.

IMF says world is on track for recovery, although Euro debt adds volatility.

Jobless claims beat expectations.

Europe is out of recession.

Treasury down to 18% stake in Citi.