Manufacturing Fear

[norseamd]

"If it would have went off, I might not be here tonight. I was in this parade," Knezovich tells the crowd gathered at Central Valley in late June. He pauses, letting it sink in. "With 500 or so kids. Children."

http://www.inlander.com/spokane/manufacturing-fear/Content?oid=2534837

 

[BoberFett]

Do you have a comment?

 

[JSt0rm]

Just so long as we manufacture it in america Ill buy it.

 

[sandorski]

Interesting read.

 

[Subyman]

FBI does this constantly. Many of the "terrorist" groups they find in the US are created by the FBI. Once or twice a year they parade out a bunch of poor people they entrapped. Shameful.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

FBI does this constantly. Many of the "terrorist" groups they find in the US are created by the FBI. Once or twice a year they parade out a bunch of poor people they entrapped. Shameful.

Yeah, like these poor guys:

In a conversation in his office last Friday, Knezovich holds up his smartphone, and brings up a Washington Post story: "How federal agents foiled a murderous Jade Helm 15 retaliation plot." In response to fears over Jade Helm, the feds allege, three North Carolina men allegedly plotted to draw U.S. forces onto a property full of booby traps in order to kill them.

A lot of times you can fault law enforcement with being overzealous, but they're the ones having to deal with the armed, angry, and crazy being stoked for political gain.

 

[norseamd]

FBI does this constantly. Many of the "terrorist" groups they find in the US are created by the FBI. Once or twice a year they parade out a bunch of poor people they entrapped. Shameful.

Links?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Links?

Here's a couple:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/23/law-enforcement-entrapment-terrorists.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

If you go through the motions to set up and carry out a terrorist act I'm glad the fed's are helping you with it right into a jail cell.

 

[Subyman]

If you go through the motions to set up and carry out a terrorist act I'm glad the fed's are helping you with it right into a jail cell.

I don't think you get it. An informant is the mastermind. Comes up with everything then offers money to poor people to help him do it. It is completely manufactured by the FBI and never, ever would have happened without their doing.

In the one's I'm talking about they do not sneak into a terrorist cell, they create it.

 

[Subyman]

Yeah, like these poor guys:

A lot of times you can fault law enforcement with being overzealous, but they're the ones having to deal with the armed, angry, and crazy being stoked for political gain.

What I said is not mutually exclusive. The FBI does real work, so it begs the question. Why pump up bogus cases and spend important resources entrapping people? To manufacture fear and make the domestic terrorist threat seem bigger.

 

[Zaap]

Here's a couple:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots

Oh brother, this horseshit again,

That's the one where people got 'entrapped' walking with their own fucking feet from a car, carrying what they fully believed were bombs, and placing them outside a Jewish center, totally thinking they were going to kill people, completely responsible for their own actions.

The ringleader of the gang had been making statements about blowing up bridges and military air stations and other targets and recruited the other dimbulbs for it.

Not a dime of any money had changed hands.

"B-but they were poor! That's an excuse for *ANYTHING*!"

The bleeding hearts need to find a new posterchild story for 'poor poor pitiful people' entrapped into committing terrorist acts, cause that one doesn't fly except with people easily misled by one-sided documentaries made by other bleeding hearts.

 

[Subyman]

Oh brother, this horseshit again,

That's the one where people got 'entrapped' walking with their own fucking feet from a car, carrying what they fully believed were bombs, and placing them outside a Jewish center, totally thinking they were going to kill people, completely responsible for their own actions.

The ringleader of the gang had been making statements about blowing up bridges and military air stations and other targets and recruited the other dimbulbs for it.

Not a dime of any money had changed hands.

"B-but they were poor! That's an excuse for *ANYTHING*!"

The bleeding hearts need to find a new posterchild story for 'poor poor pitiful people' entrapped into committing terrorist acts, cause that one doesn't fly except with people easily misled by one-sided documentaries made by other bleeding hearts.

I don't care about the idiots they roped into doing this. They are morons that probably would have went to jail for slinging dope anyway. The thing I have a problem with is the FBI using resources to create terrorism so they can parade around these morons as terrorist masterminds. Complete waste of time.

 

[Zaap]

What I said is not mutually exclusive. The FBI does real work, so it begs the question. Why pump up bogus cases and spend important resources entrapping people? To manufacture fear and make the domestic terrorist threat seem bigger.

It's been gone over. ANY case that never actually came to fruition in a terrorist attack (IE virtually every success as opposed to failure) you'd label as a 'bogus case'.

Once the FBI or anyone else gets wind of a potential terror threat, they are NOT going to let it proceed with the suspects getting their hands on anything that's actually dangerous. Then if it got out of hand innocents would be killed and the LEA that knew about it could be partially responsible. They're virtually *ALWAYS* going to have to use informants, and then entrap people using controlled materials, not actual bombs or stinger missiles or whatever the plots involved.

I've pointed it out before- even as the usual dimwits whine things like "Why didn't the FBI concentrate on REAL threats like the Boston Bombers, but instead they were on thus and such case..." the REALITY is, before the fact, the Boston Bombers and most other would-be mass-murderers are just another bunch of 'poor people' and any attempt to step in and *gasp* entrap them BEFORE they were able to pull off their plot, would appear to you as "just trapping a couple of poor kids for no reason!" and you fuck well know it.

In other words, no one has a crystal ball for these things, and no legit LEA once they have a suspect that informants are telling them is plotting something, is going to ever let them actually CARRY IT OUT, just so you can know whether it was the real thing vs. 'just trapping some poor people.' Because while hindsight being 20/20 is great for armchair detectives and bleeding hearts, it means shit in the real world, in real time, where no one knows the difference and can't know until something horrible actually happened.

Does this mean every one of these cases would have resulted in some horrible mass murder on its own? No. The point is... NO ONE can fucking know for sure, and letting a mass murder actually happen is NOT an option. It's a shit sandwich either way, but being willfully stupid, paranoid and conspiratorial about it is fucking stupid.

 

[Subyman]

It's been gone over. ANY case that never actually came to fruition in a terrorist attack (IE virtually every success as opposed to failure) you'd label as a 'bogus case'.

Once the FBI or anyone else gets wind of a potential terror threat, they are NOT going to let it proceed with the suspects getting their hands on anything that's actually dangerous. Then if it got out of hand innocents would be killed and the LEA that knew about it could be partially responsible. They're virtually *ALWAYS* going to have to use informants, and then entrap people using controlled materials, not actual bombs or stinger missiles or whatever the plots involved.

I've pointed it out before- even as the usual dimwits whine things like "Why didn't the FBI concentrate on REAL threats like the Boston Bombers, but instead they were on thus and such case..." the REALITY is, before the fact, the Boston Bombers and most other would-be mass-murderers are just another bunch of 'poor people' and any attempt to step in and *gasp* entrap them BEFORE they were able to pull off their plot, would appear to you as "just trapping a couple of poor kids for no reason!" and you fuck well know it.

In other words, no one has a crystal ball for these things, and no legit LEA once they have a suspect that informants are telling them is plotting something, is going to ever let them actually CARRY IT OUT, just so you can know whether it was the real thing vs. 'just trapping some poor people.' Because while hindsight being 20/20 is great for armchair detectives and bleeding hearts, it means shit in the real world, in real time, where no one knows the difference and can't know until something horrible actually happened.

Does this mean every one of these cases would have resulted in some horrible mass murder on its own? No. The point is... NO ONE can fucking know for sure, and letting a mass murder actually happen is NOT an option. It's a shit sandwich either way, but being willfully stupid, paranoid and conspiratorial about it is fucking stupid.

I agree with you. The FBI should sniff out threats, but where we differ is that I do not believe they should create them. The one you pointed out earlier was completely created by the FBI. The informant went in and spoke radical islamic speech in a local mosque. The leader of the mosque told his congregation that the man was someone to distance themselves from. The informant then went around looking for people to do "work." He eventually found an idiot that he wooed with nice cars, food, and a sense of purpose. The informant came up with the entire plan, prepared the weapons, taught the men how to use the weapons, provided all transportation (the men didn't even own cars...) and offered money.

Are the men culpable? Sure! They ended up choosing to do it, but there was no threat, no plan, no weapons, no even idea to do these acts before the FBI created it. I guarantee you can go into any town in the US and if you sniff around long enough you can put together 3-4 idiots to do whatever you want especially if you have law enforcement backing you up.

There is a balance between finding real threats and massaging them into existence. The test should be: is the FBI actively creating a situation that never would have existed without the FBI or is the FBI along for the ride? In this case, it is clear it was completely created by the FBI.

 

[Zaap]

I don't care about the idiots they roped into doing this. They are morons that probably would have went to jail for slinging dope anyway. The thing I have a problem with is the FBI using resources to create terrorism so they can parade around these morons as terrorist masterminds. Complete waste of time.

And I dont care if we're labeling it terrorism or not. You had people willing to commit mass murder, that got caught doing what they thought was just that.

The FBI may have played it up to put a feather in their cap, and I'm sure the news media went wild and sensationalized it- but it doesn't trump the facts of the case.

FACT: we live in an age where people DO go and commit acts of mass murder, for whatever reason, terrorism or otherwise.

FACT: if the FBI is informed of someone who boasts about wanting to do this, they CAN'T just sit on their ass, and make a judgement "Oh it's just a poor person. Let's leave him alone, we can't be seen to be picking on poor people!" They're going to investigate. If the person is telling an informant that they want to blow things up, or acquire weapons to kill people... WHAT exactly do people think any reasonable LEA is supposed to do from that point?

Just leave the person be and let whatever may happen, happen? Just dismiss it as 'poor person' that's a ticket out of anything?

It's just obvious you can't let the person really get hands on anything dangerous. Letting them get hands on something controlled, to carry out whatever act in a controlled manner so you can arrest them is an obvious tactic. Anyone who is going to carry what they think is an armed bomb and willingly place it where people could be killed if it were real, deserves what they get. I don't really give a shit if it's supposed to be some example of a terrorism threat or not.

 

[Subyman]

And I dont care if we're labeling it terrorism or not. You had people willing to commit mass murder, that got caught doing what they thought was just that.

The FBI may have played it up to put a feather in their cap, and I'm sure the news media went wild and sensationalized it- but it doesn't trump the facts of the case.

FACT: we live in an age where people DO go and commit acts of mass murder, for whatever reason, terrorism or otherwise.

FACT: if the FBI is informed of someone who boasts about wanting to do this, they CAN'T just sit on their ass, and make a judgement "Oh it's just a poor person. Let's leave him alone, we can't be seen to be picking on poor people!" They're going to investigate. If the person is telling an informant that they want to blow things up, or acquire weapons to kill people... WHAT exactly do people think any reasonable LEA is supposed to do from that point?

Just leave the person be and let whatever may happen, happen? Just dismiss it as 'poor person' that's a ticket out of anything?

It's just obvious you can't let the person really get hands on anything dangerous. Letting them get hands on something controlled, to carry out whatever act in a controlled manner so you can arrest them is an obvious tactic. Anyone who is going to carry what they think is an armed bomb and willingly place it where people could be killed if it were real, deserves what they get. I don't really give a shit if it's supposed to be some example of a terrorism threat or not.

I think I addressed this above in my previous post.

 

[Zaap]

I agree with you. The FBI should sniff out threats, but where we differ is that I do not believe they should create them. The one you pointed out earlier was completely created by the FBI. The informant went in and spoke radical islamic speech in a local mosque. The leader of the mosque told his congregation that the man was someone to distance themselves from. The informant then went around looking for people to do "work." He eventually found an idiot that he wooed with nice cars, food, and a sense of purpose. The informant came up with the entire plan, prepared the weapons, taught the men how to use the weapons, provided all transportation (the men didn't even own cars...) and offered money.

Yeah, that's the story as presented by the documentary on the case, and held up as an example.

Problem? It NEVER goes into the real facts of how the FBI got onto the ringleader, David Cromitie. The film leaves out a LOT about him, doesn't show any of his anti-semite rants, doesn't even tell how he came under scrutiny by the undercover agent. (By openly boasting about wanting to kill Jews, and a admitting to a PREVIOUS attempt to blow up a military recruiting office.)

The film is deceptive as hell, and you'll notice no one involved on the law enforcement side is even interviewed in it.


I'll say this... if sending people into an area under-cover and coming up with a few Cromities here and there means people like that go to prison... I don't fucking care. That guy in particular deserves to be.

It's almost like saying if I sent a person into a bad neighborhood undercover, and he managed to expose a few drug dealers- OMG the govt is manufacturing drug dealers! No... maybe in some cases you just might find what you're looking for... IF you actually look.

For example: I have no problem what-so-ever with the FBI sending undercover operatives into areas with a lot of skinhead and aryran nations types. OOPS! They might actually end up arresting a few people (without knowing specifically who first) who may have been planning to kill Jews, Muslims, blacks, whoever. Should I cry a river? Whine about manufactured 'terrorists'? Or just say good fucking riddance- of course you were going to find a few scumbags in a potential hornets nest of them.

Do poor minority areas get a free pass because the same effect may be possible? I just don't buy it.

 

[mizzou]

http://www.inlander.com/spokane/manufacturing-fear/Content?oid=2534837

Good read, a bit long so I'll have to tackle the rest some other time.