Man Accused Of Shooting Alleged Sacramento Car Thief 31 minutes ago

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1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: JD50
...
I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

And as a cop, I would assume you know that turning law enforcement over to poorly trained folks with NRA cards in their wallets will almost always make things more dangerous, not less. We're not talking about "defending yourself", we're talking about taking the law into your own hands. And as far as decreasing crime, seems like there are a lot of things we could do to decrease crime. Giving every beat cop the authority to chop the hands off anyone caught committing a felony would be a big step in that direction, I imagine. But since we live in America, the government can't do stuff like that...I don't see how it's any better if private citizens area allowed to take such extreme measures.

Stop looking at this like everyone in the world is a criminal who's rotten to the core. Laws that allow this guy to do what he did would also allow him to gun me down if he THOUGHT I was stealing his car, without the benefit of a trial of a legal defense on my part. You'll forgive me if that makes me a little uncomfortable.

Gee, what is it with you guys and the NRA?

People have to realize that not everyone has cops at their beck and call, expecially cops that can show up in 10 minutes. His car might not have been insured against theft either. I don't have full coverage on my vehicles and I pity any SOB I catch RED-HANDED trying to steal one from me.

Accosting 3 people may not be the safest or even the smartest move, but it is his right to protect his property. It's not like he was baiting anyone, it was his car and his property.

That said, there is no excuse for chasing them down, unless they took off in his car.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

I, and thankfully the law, will never agree with this.


Its quite obvious that you would much rather see some guy just trying to protect what is his go to jail than a criminal get hurt, but thanks for clarifying.


And you have made it quite clear that you think you should be able to kill anyone who steals from you. Thanks for clarifying. And yes, he should rot in jail for taking the law into his own hands. I hope you follow in his footsteps when given the chance. Nice strawman btw.

Edit: and I pray to God you never get the chance to become a cop.


I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

WAS being the key word here. Thank goodness.


You don't know a damned thing about me and my time in law enforcement. Lucky for you, most good cops will put their lives on the line for anyone, even thankless, ignorant a$$holes like yourself.

If your posting history is any indication of your history as a police officer, I think we can all sleep a little safer at night knowing fvcktards like you can't brandish a firearm every time someone steps on their grass. The fact that you can not see that you are no different than the common street thug with your bullsh!t e-talk is laughable.

My posting history has absolutely nothing to do with my professional history. You don't enforce only the laws that you agree with and let everything else slide. I have said several times that I would NOT shoot someone that was stealing my car, apparently you can't read. You should sleep safer at night knowing that there are people like me that will still protect people like you, even after all of your baseless insults. You talk awful tough on this board about how you would act in certain situations, when you have obviously never been threatened, or even out numbered and in a dangerous situation. Talk about bullsh!t e-talk......

I'm sorry that you cannot see the difference between law abiding citizens and "the common street thug", but that sounds more like a personal problem. But honestly, you sound more to me like just another asshat that doesn't like authority, you turned awful aggressive once I told you that I was a cop. I've met a lot of people like you, and when the sh1t hits the fan, you'll be the first one scrambling towards the phone dialing 911, asking for a "fvcktard like me" to come save your ass.

Nah, actually I think you made it quite clear that the only reason you don't shot is because it IS against the law. If you could and get away with it, I think you would not have hesitated 2x before killing all three of those car thieves. And when you get shot and you WILL one day if your e-persona matches your real life, you'll be the first one scrambling into my ER to save your life. See how this game works?

Edit: and toughen your skin up a bit with the "insults" crap. You seem to be doing just fine dishing them out. They don't bother me, call me what you like as you have, I will always reciprocate until they come along, lock this thread, and give us both a vacation.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,750
2,335
126
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: JD50
...
I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

And as a cop, I would assume you know that turning law enforcement over to poorly trained folks with NRA cards in their wallets will almost always make things more dangerous, not less. We're not talking about "defending yourself", we're talking about taking the law into your own hands. And as far as decreasing crime, seems like there are a lot of things we could do to decrease crime. Giving every beat cop the authority to chop the hands off anyone caught committing a felony would be a big step in that direction, I imagine. But since we live in America, the government can't do stuff like that...I don't see how it's any better if private citizens area allowed to take such extreme measures.

Stop looking at this like everyone in the world is a criminal who's rotten to the core. Laws that allow this guy to do what he did would also allow him to gun me down if he THOUGHT I was stealing his car, without the benefit of a trial of a legal defense on my part. You'll forgive me if that makes me a little uncomfortable.

Gee, what is it with you guys and the NRA?

People have to realize that not everyone has cops at their beck and call, expecially cops that can show up in 10 minutes. His car might not have been insured against theft either. I don't have full coverage on my vehicles and I pity any SOB I catch RED-HANDED trying to steal one from me.

Accosting 3 people may not be the safest or even the smartest move, but it is his right to protect his property. It's not like he was baiting anyone, it was his car and his property.

That said, there is no excuse for chasing them down, unless they took off in his car.

well said :beer:

 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: classy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Ummm, that's because we're right. It's not only logic, it's what we (and everyone else who uses a firearm by profession or as a part of life) is trained to know and follow. You're doing nothing but digging your hole deeper.

Well, let me clarify...you don't pull the trigger to 'kill', you pull the trigger to 'stop'. However, by stop it's basically understood to mean kill.

So let me get this right. Your idea of being right is that you only shoot a gun to kill someone? :roll: And if having more love of life and more common sense means I am "digging a deeper hole" I'll keep digging. I know you love your gun, your truck, trailer park, and humping your sibling more than human life :p.

Oh my, what an incredibly intelligent and well formed argument. How can I possibly stand against such overwhelming expertise, evidence, and logic.

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

As anyone who has experience with firearms will tell you, when used in a combat situation (not for target shooting or hunting) you ONLY fire your weapon to stop the threat. That means firing center mass until the target ceases to be a threat. That means you're basically shooting to kill. There is NO SUCH THING as warning shots (because they're illegal, dangerous, and pointless), and there is NO SUCH THING as shooting to wound (except in certain very rare sniping instances) because it's almost impossible, dangerous, and ineffective. Again, as anyone with ACTUAL knowledge and experience with firearms will tell you, that's just how it is.

Now, you can enjoy living in your little fantasy life all you want, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But do not think for one second that your pitiful and ignorant attempts to dictate other people's reality will go without challenge from those who actually have knowledge and experience. If you don't like being told how the real world is by people who live there then I suggest you find somewhere else to post your stupidity.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: classy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Ummm, that's because we're right. It's not only logic, it's what we (and everyone else who uses a firearm by profession or as a part of life) is trained to know and follow. You're doing nothing but digging your hole deeper.

Well, let me clarify...you don't pull the trigger to 'kill', you pull the trigger to 'stop'. However, by stop it's basically understood to mean kill.

So let me get this right. Your idea of being right is that you only shoot a gun to kill someone? :roll: And if having more love of life and more common sense means I am "digging a deeper hole" I'll keep digging. I know you love your gun, your truck, trailer park, and humping your sibling more than human life :p.

No you dolt, you don't get it. Saying that you only shoot a gun to kill is absolutely correct. That is how anyone that gets training, is trained. You are ignorant to this and digging your whole deeper. Oh, and you can take your trailer park redneck stereotype somewhere else, that crap is getting old.

LMAO you are such an E-tough guy! Please let us know when you have grown a set and start popping shots into people that steal instead of talking tough about it here. I'd be very interested to read your posts originating from your jail cell. In fact, that would "make my day". GTFU, hop on your bike, and find yourself some expired parking meters to hump.

My, my, my...how the ignorant get uppity when cognitive disonance sets in. Welcome to reality, enjoy your stay.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: classy
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: classy
Originally posted by: BoomerD
An update to this ...On last night's news, they said that he chased them down the street, and fired several more shots at them...THAT makes the prosecution worthwhile IMO. Personally, I'm all in favor of being able to shoot the car thieves...IN THE ACT, but once they ran away, he was in the wrong chasing them down and shooting at them...

Like I said "A classic NRA gun toting Moron"

But do you have the guts to call him that to his face? :p

To be honest most men who run around with all these guns are nothing but cowards. And if he doesn't have a gun pointed at me I would tell him so. Him and anyone else to their f'in face. And for a punk b!tch like you to suggest that I would be afraid to say it to his face because he has gun just further proves my point. But here's the question would him or you be bad enough to talk trash to someone's face without your gun? Fairy :p


Where did you get that idiotic statement from? Did you ever think that people might want to have a gun for protection against other people with guns, mainly criminals?

If you don't have a gun in your house to protect your family I'd say that that is pretty irresponsible. But hey, at least when someone breaks into your house you can run out in the hallway and call them cowards......

:thumbsup:
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,750
2,335
126
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

I, and thankfully the law, will never agree with this.


Its quite obvious that you would much rather see some guy just trying to protect what is his go to jail than a criminal get hurt, but thanks for clarifying.


And you have made it quite clear that you think you should be able to kill anyone who steals from you. Thanks for clarifying. And yes, he should rot in jail for taking the law into his own hands. I hope you follow in his footsteps when given the chance. Nice strawman btw.

Edit: and I pray to God you never get the chance to become a cop.


I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

WAS being the key word here. Thank goodness.


You don't know a damned thing about me and my time in law enforcement. Lucky for you, most good cops will put their lives on the line for anyone, even thankless, ignorant a$$holes like yourself.

If your posting history is any indication of your history as a police officer, I think we can all sleep a little safer at night knowing fvcktards like you can't brandish a firearm every time someone steps on their grass. The fact that you can not see that you are no different than the common street thug with your bullsh!t e-talk is laughable.

My posting history has absolutely nothing to do with my professional history. You don't enforce only the laws that you agree with and let everything else slide. I have said several times that I would NOT shoot someone that was stealing my car, apparently you can't read. You should sleep safer at night knowing that there are people like me that will still protect people like you, even after all of your baseless insults. You talk awful tough on this board about how you would act in certain situations, when you have obviously never been threatened, or even out numbered and in a dangerous situation. Talk about bullsh!t e-talk......

I'm sorry that you cannot see the difference between law abiding citizens and "the common street thug", but that sounds more like a personal problem. But honestly, you sound more to me like just another asshat that doesn't like authority, you turned awful aggressive once I told you that I was a cop. I've met a lot of people like you, and when the sh1t hits the fan, you'll be the first one scrambling towards the phone dialing 911, asking for a "fvcktard like me" to come save your ass.

Nah, actually I think you made it quite clear that the only reason you don't shot is because it IS against the law. If you could and get away with it, I think you would not have hesitated 2x before killing all three of those car thieves. And when you get shot and you WILL one day if your e-persona matches your real life, you'll be the first one scrambling into my ER to save your life. See how this game works?


Actually I'll tell you exactly what I would do. I'd go upstairs, take my glock out of my safe, put it my waistband, grab my ASP, then go outside and confront them. The rest of what happens is up to them. They wanna fight? Fine, I could probably take them on with just my ASP, but if they have a weapon, you better believe I'm throwing my ASP at them and pulling out my glock. Even then I wouldn't shoot unless they come at me with a weapon, and if they did that, I'd stop shooting the second that they stopped threatening me.

But more than likely they'd see me coming out of my house with a weapon in my hand (in this case my ASP) and they'd take off running. In that case, I'd make sure I get a good description of them and call the cops.

Edit - of course I wouldn't chase them down the street shooting at them like this guy did, and in case you didn't know an ASP is an expandable baton.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: classy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Ummm, that's because we're right. It's not only logic, it's what we (and everyone else who uses a firearm by profession or as a part of life) is trained to know and follow. You're doing nothing but digging your hole deeper.

Well, let me clarify...you don't pull the trigger to 'kill', you pull the trigger to 'stop'. However, by stop it's basically understood to mean kill.

So let me get this right. Your idea of being right is that you only shoot a gun to kill someone? :roll: And if having more love of life and more common sense means I am "digging a deeper hole" I'll keep digging. I know you love your gun, your truck, trailer park, and humping your sibling more than human life :p.

No you dolt, you don't get it. Saying that you only shoot a gun to kill is absolutely correct. That is how anyone that gets training, is trained. You are ignorant to this and digging your whole deeper. Oh, and you can take your trailer park redneck stereotype somewhere else, that crap is getting old.

LMAO you are such an E-tough guy! Please let us know when you have grown a set and start popping shots into people that steal instead of talking tough about it here. I'd be very interested to read your posts originating from your jail cell. In fact, that would "make my day". GTFU, hop on your bike, and find yourself some expired parking meters to hump.

My, my, my...how the ignorant get uppity when cognitive disonance sets in. Welcome to reality, enjoy your stay.

It's dissonance (I will spare you the typical ignorant/irony remark) and it seems to be working both ways here. We don't agree with each other that is true, but I promise not to shoot him or anyone else over it.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

I, and thankfully the law, will never agree with this.

Edit: Short story, 2 weeks ago I was awakened at 4am to find my wife fighting with some crazy drunk b!tch that had broken into our house (she must have thought it was her house), I have several guns in the house and never once was did the thought enter my head that I have to get my gun and blow this loon away. We pushed her out of the house and locked the door and called the police. By the time they arrived, she was gone but better than them arriving to find her dead in my house.

Short story: Eight months ago a woman woke up to find a man in her bedroom. He beat and raped her for three hours. The end.

My point? Bad things happen. Sometimes things which seem very bad end up ok, like in your case. But that's luck, not skill or anything else. Just as often things which seem to be ok (like living a normal life) end up bad (like being raped and assaulted). For every person like you who has an anectdote, someone else (like the lady in Colorado from my story) has one to counter it.

Obviously every situation calls for rational appraisal and correct reaction, but if you aren't prepared for the worst then eventually you will probably pay the price. That's why I (and about two million other Americans) carry a concealed handgun. That's why about one in three houses in America have at least one gun. That's how we're able to use those guns correctly in defensive situations so many times every year (estimates vary, but from 500,000 up to two million is fairly reasonable to assume given the existing research).

 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

I, and thankfully the law, will never agree with this.


Its quite obvious that you would much rather see some guy just trying to protect what is his go to jail than a criminal get hurt, but thanks for clarifying.


And you have made it quite clear that you think you should be able to kill anyone who steals from you. Thanks for clarifying. And yes, he should rot in jail for taking the law into his own hands. I hope you follow in his footsteps when given the chance. Nice strawman btw.

Edit: and I pray to God you never get the chance to become a cop.


I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

WAS being the key word here. Thank goodness.


You don't know a damned thing about me and my time in law enforcement. Lucky for you, most good cops will put their lives on the line for anyone, even thankless, ignorant a$$holes like yourself.

If your posting history is any indication of your history as a police officer, I think we can all sleep a little safer at night knowing fvcktards like you can't brandish a firearm every time someone steps on their grass. The fact that you can not see that you are no different than the common street thug with your bullsh!t e-talk is laughable.

My posting history has absolutely nothing to do with my professional history. You don't enforce only the laws that you agree with and let everything else slide. I have said several times that I would NOT shoot someone that was stealing my car, apparently you can't read. You should sleep safer at night knowing that there are people like me that will still protect people like you, even after all of your baseless insults. You talk awful tough on this board about how you would act in certain situations, when you have obviously never been threatened, or even out numbered and in a dangerous situation. Talk about bullsh!t e-talk......

I'm sorry that you cannot see the difference between law abiding citizens and "the common street thug", but that sounds more like a personal problem. But honestly, you sound more to me like just another asshat that doesn't like authority, you turned awful aggressive once I told you that I was a cop. I've met a lot of people like you, and when the sh1t hits the fan, you'll be the first one scrambling towards the phone dialing 911, asking for a "fvcktard like me" to come save your ass.

Nah, actually I think you made it quite clear that the only reason you don't shot is because it IS against the law. If you could and get away with it, I think you would not have hesitated 2x before killing all three of those car thieves. And when you get shot and you WILL one day if your e-persona matches your real life, you'll be the first one scrambling into my ER to save your life. See how this game works?


Actually I'll tell you exactly what I would do. I'd go upstairs, take my glock out of my safe, put it my waistband, grab my ASP, then go outside and confront them. The rest of what happens is up to them. They wanna fight? Fine, I could probably take them on with just my ASP, but if they have a weapon, you better believe I'm throwing my ASP at them and pulling out my glock. Even then I wouldn't shoot unless they come at me with a weapon, and if they did that, I'd stop shooting the second that they stopped threatening me.

But more than likely they'd see me coming out of my house with a weapon in my hand (in this case my ASP) and they'd take off running. In that case, I'd make sure I get a good description of them and call the cops.

Edit - of course I wouldn't chase them down the street shooting at them like this guy did, and in case you didn't know an ASP is an expandable baton.

I would do much the same thing save the ASP (to me it is a coding language) and hope they aren't stupid enough to stick around and see how good my aim is. If they were unarmed I would try my best to convince them to move along or become a statistic, if they wanted to get tough (which I doubt) I would only shoot if I felt mine or my family's life were in danger. I just don't think nor will ever think we should decriminalize this guy shooting at these kids unless his life was in danger. A car is a car, a life is more valuable even if it is a POS life. I can't pick and choose who I treat at the hospital though I would like to sometimes.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,750
2,335
126
Originally posted by: umbrella39

I would do much the same thing save the ASP (to me it is a coding language) and hope they aren't stupid enough to stick around and see how good my aim is. If they were unarmed I would try my best to convince them to move along or become a statistic, if they wanted to get tough (which I doubt) I would only shoot if I felt mine or my family's life were in danger. I just don't think nor will ever think we should decriminalize shooting this guy shooting at these kids unless his life was in danger. A car is a car, a life is more valuable even if it is a POS life. I can't pick and choose who I treat at the hospital though I would like to sometimes.


Well, after all that, it looks like we are somewhat in agreement....:beer:
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

It's a car, not your life. I don't care if you are Bruce Lee and Rambo rolled up into one package of ass-kicking and name-taking, if you see some guys stealing your car out of your driveway, you get whatever weapon you might have, make sure your doors are locked and you call the police. If they come busting in, by all means start shooting, but you're not in immediate danger with them out in your driveway, and you could quite possibly make things much worse. What if they WERE armed? That's 3 guys with guns against your one gun, so now instead of having your car stolen, you'd dead. This wasn't self defense, it was law enforcement...by someone singularly unequipped to that role.

This is my problem with this sort of thing...there is zero barrier to entry for firearm ownership. So you get the power without the responsibility or intelligence to know how to use it well. I'm all for using whatever weapons you have to defend your life, but this guy put himself in way more danger than he needed to by playing Rambo. And from the comments gun owners are always making, this does not seem like a one-off viewpoint.

Good plan, you should always accept being a victim. Never EVER stand up for what's right, or think that you have rights. Good idea, thanks for it. Yuppers.

Pardon me if I disagree. I am not EVER required to be a victim. I ALWAYS have the right to my safety, AND my personal property. Now, that doesn't mean I come out shooting, but it DOES mean I take a positive role in security. Call the police, then turn on a light or go outside to shoo them off. If that didn't do it you can re-evaluate and proceed accordingly. Maybe you turn the garden hose on them, maybe it feels safe enough to approach, maybe you take out the camera and start clicking pics...whatever it takes. Then if THEY escalate the situation you respond accordingly. One unarmed person without surprise and it's fine to face them hand-to-hand if you're trained. If things look like you're facing serious threat of harm, clear leather and do what has to be done to be safe. *shrug* I don't see anything wrong with that. You have the absolute right to protect what's yours because police will almost never arrive in time to do so.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39

I would do much the same thing save the ASP (to me it is a coding language) and hope they aren't stupid enough to stick around and see how good my aim is. If they were unarmed I would try my best to convince them to move along or become a statistic, if they wanted to get tough (which I doubt) I would only shoot if I felt mine or my family's life were in danger. I just don't think nor will ever think we should decriminalize shooting this guy shooting at these kids unless his life was in danger. A car is a car, a life is more valuable even if it is a POS life. I can't pick and choose who I treat at the hospital though I would like to sometimes.


Well, after all that, it looks like we are somewhat in agreement....:beer:


Indeed. :beer: I love my guns, I love to hunt, and am a card carrying member to boot. I get tired of people getting shot and having to deal with the outcome, good guys or bad guys. I don't know what the solution is to stop these punks from being punks, the only thing I can do is be prepared (and armed) should I have to deal with them, again. I say again because we lived in SE Detroit for the first few years of our marriage. That place is a freaking zoo and I would lying if I said I had not fired a round or two into my front lawn before.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

I, and thankfully the law, will never agree with this.


Its quite obvious that you would much rather see some guy just trying to protect what is his go to jail than a criminal get hurt, but thanks for clarifying.


And you have made it quite clear that you think you should be able to kill anyone who steals from you. Thanks for clarifying. And yes, he should rot in jail for taking the law into his own hands. I hope you follow in his footsteps when given the chance. Nice strawman btw.

Edit: and I pray to God you never get the chance to become a cop.


I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

WAS being the key word here. Thank goodness. If the only thing that prevents you from killing anyone who walks onto your property is it being against the law, then perhaps you should be in a cell somewhere. Thankfully you are no longer in the position (for whatever reason) to legally carry a gun at your side in your daily life.

Actually if he's an American citizen he still has that right...as do we all.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,750
2,335
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

It's a car, not your life. I don't care if you are Bruce Lee and Rambo rolled up into one package of ass-kicking and name-taking, if you see some guys stealing your car out of your driveway, you get whatever weapon you might have, make sure your doors are locked and you call the police. If they come busting in, by all means start shooting, but you're not in immediate danger with them out in your driveway, and you could quite possibly make things much worse. What if they WERE armed? That's 3 guys with guns against your one gun, so now instead of having your car stolen, you'd dead. This wasn't self defense, it was law enforcement...by someone singularly unequipped to that role.

This is my problem with this sort of thing...there is zero barrier to entry for firearm ownership. So you get the power without the responsibility or intelligence to know how to use it well. I'm all for using whatever weapons you have to defend your life, but this guy put himself in way more danger than he needed to by playing Rambo. And from the comments gun owners are always making, this does not seem like a one-off viewpoint.

Good plan, you should always accept being a victim. Never EVER stand up for what's right, or think that you have rights. Good idea, thanks for it. Yuppers.

Pardon me if I disagree. I am not EVER required to be a victim. I ALWAYS have the right to my safety, AND my personal property. Now, that doesn't mean I come out shooting, but it DOES mean I take a positive role in security. Call the police, then turn on a light or go outside to shoo them off. If that didn't do it you can re-evaluate and proceed accordingly. Maybe you turn the garden hose on them, maybe it feels safe enough to approach, maybe you take out the camera and start clicking pics...whatever it takes. Then if THEY escalate the situation you respond accordingly. One unarmed person without surprise and it's fine to face them hand-to-hand if you're trained. If things look like you're facing serious threat of harm, clear leather and do what has to be done to be safe. *shrug* I don't see anything wrong with that. You have the absolute right to protect what's yours because police will almost never arrive in time to do so.

:thumbsup:

 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: smashp
Equal force


Unless this guy can explain why he felt getting his car stolen was a Immediate realistic threat to his life.

No kidding. I have NO problem with people using force, even lethal force, when it's necessary to defend yourself. But laws that make it legal to kill someone who has committed any crime at all against you seems like a bad idea. It moves from the realm of self defense into being a vigilante...which is EXACTLY how the people in favor of it are phrasing the issue. No doubt the car thief isn't exactly a model citizen, but even if he deserves to die for trying to steal a car, I'm not sure it should be up Joe Sixpack to dish out the punishment.

It is 3am, you have 3 young guys standing on your driveway in the act of committing a felony. How was the guy supposed to know they would not try to harm him? They could have easily also had a gun. Here is a story for you:

Guy walks out of house without a gun while kids are stealing his car,
Guy: "Hey WTF are you doing?!"
Kid #1 pulls out gun and shoots homeowner, jumps in car and leaves.

BTW: Shooting someone in the act is not being a vigilante, hunting them down after the fact would be.

I do think he should have given a verbal warning before shooting and if that did not deter the kids, he was in his right to shoot.

I, and thankfully the law, will never agree with this.


Its quite obvious that you would much rather see some guy just trying to protect what is his go to jail than a criminal get hurt, but thanks for clarifying.


And you have made it quite clear that you think you should be able to kill anyone who steals from you. Thanks for clarifying. And yes, he should rot in jail for taking the law into his own hands. I hope you follow in his footsteps when given the chance. Nice strawman btw.

Edit: and I pray to God you never get the chance to become a cop.


I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

WAS being the key word here. Thank goodness. If the only thing that prevents you from killing anyone who walks onto your property is it being against the law, then perhaps you should be in a cell somewhere. Thankfully you are no longer in the position (for whatever reason) to legally carry a gun at your side in your daily life.

Actually if he's an American citizen he still has that right...as do we all.

You know what I meant ;) and I was just being melodramatic. I carry one to and from work with me every night. Legally of couse.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: JD50
...
I have made my positions quite clear, I'm sorry if you are unable to read the whole thread. I would not shoot someone stealing from me because it is against the law. IF it was legal, I'm sure crime would drop dramatically. I think it is everyones right to protect what is theirs, but its still against the law, so I will comply. This guy appears to have chased the crooks down the street and then shot at them, that is wrong. The Police are not going to be there to save you anytime you have a problem, you need to be able to defend yourself. How do I know this? Well I was a cop for 3 years jackass.

And as a cop, I would assume you know that turning law enforcement over to poorly trained folks with NRA cards in their wallets will almost always make things more dangerous, not less. We're not talking about "defending yourself", we're talking about taking the law into your own hands. And as far as decreasing crime, seems like there are a lot of things we could do to decrease crime. Giving every beat cop the authority to chop the hands off anyone caught committing a felony would be a big step in that direction, I imagine. But since we live in America, the government can't do stuff like that...I don't see how it's any better if private citizens area allowed to take such extreme measures.

Stop looking at this like everyone in the world is a criminal who's rotten to the core. Laws that allow this guy to do what he did would also allow him to gun me down if he THOUGHT I was stealing his car, without the benefit of a trial of a legal defense on my part. You'll forgive me if that makes me a little uncomfortable.

Your assumption of poor training is a geeralization and basically ignorant (at least from my rather knowledgeable perspective).

I understand why you'd be nervous, but the alternative is that innocent people pay for the crimes of the guilty and I consider that worse. I'd rather face danger but have the freedom to face it than surrender my right to act in my own defense for illusory security from some government body.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: shira
Stop rationalizing. Stealing intellectual property creates just as real a financial loss to the owner as stealing physical property. That's the issue: Financial loss.

Imaging for a moment if it were IMPOSSIBLE to copy/download/whatever MP3 music files without paying the retail price. How many more 89-cent sales of every top-40 hit might there be?

If 30,000 people download a particular song for free, they've just stolen the equivalent of a Honda Accord.

I'm not trying to defend the RIAA or claiming that I'm a saint when it comes to intellectual property. But anyone who thinks there's a difference in principle between stealing a car and stealing a song is just lying to themselves.
Actually, the 'issue' with IP theft, is that your statement is not true. That's one of the reasons it is controversial.
Not true? To argue that no one who currently steals IP would pay for at least some of the IP they steal if stealing weren't possible is ludicrous. Clearly, if stealing became impossible, pirates would not purchase ALL of the IP they currently steal. But they would purchase SOME IP, and the amount they'd pay for would not be insignificant. That would be more money in the hands of the IP producers.

Claiming there's a controversy in this is absurd. You're unable to see the LACK of controversy because you want to continue to view yourself as a moral human being. At least I know I'm a thief. You're both a thief and intellectually dishonest.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: senseamp
Life >>>>>>> Property.
Hope he enjoys PMITA prison.

Considering it was three against one, maybe it was his life he thought he was defending? I guess we don't have enough facts here to tell for sure either way, but if they were messing with his car, possibly even breaking in it?? and then he comes out with a gun to chase them off, what happens if they aren't bright enough to leave?

Maybe they were coming at him? If they did, then he had every right to shoot, at least IMO. Now, if he came out shooting, then that's another story. but the facts is we don't know what happened.

What we do know is that if they hadn't been f-kin with his car we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Yeah, to bad he said that he shot him "accidentally" and not in self defense. It's PMITA butter jelly time.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: senseamp
Life >>>>>>> Property.
Hope he enjoys PMITA prison.

Considering it was three against one, maybe it was his life he thought he was defending? I guess we don't have enough facts here to tell for sure either way, but if they were messing with his car, possibly even breaking in it?? and then he comes out with a gun to chase them off, what happens if they aren't bright enough to leave?

Maybe they were coming at him? If they did, then he had every right to shoot, at least IMO. Now, if he came out shooting, then that's another story. but the facts is we don't know what happened.

What we do know is that if they hadn't been f-kin with his car we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Yeah, to bad he said that he shot him "accidentally" and not in self defense. It's PMITA butter jelly time.

So he said it was an accidental shooting after he chased them? LOL, I guess accidents can and do happen.

All I can say is he shouldn't have chased them, unless they were in his car, but my statement about them f-kin with his car still holds true, doesn't it.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
I see ATOT still thinks criminals have more rights then citizens.

More things change, the more they stay the same.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,144
12,461
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I see ATOT still thinks criminals have more rights then citizens.

More things change, the more they stay the same.

No sh*t...keep in mind, the west was founded under the principle that you could shoot horse thieves...car thieves shouldn't be treated any different...
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,134
223
106
I think we are too soft on crime. I believe we should nibble off a pinky tip if someone is caught shop lifting or stealing. You'll see theft numbers start to lower pretty darn quick. I say air it on TV. Teach the youngsters and humans on the planet that it's NOT ok to steal. We need to start with the younger generation if you can somehow return Law/Order/Respect back to the public then look at all the money that will be saved and eventually it will be passed back to the consumer in not hiring security guards or paying for ripped of merchandise.

I don't see anything wrong in bringing good values to the planet. Most people steal because there is an excellent chance your gonna get away with it plus the added excitement of doing it rush, but the real reason of doing it is because if caught they know they will just get a slap on the wrist for the first, second time. Almost sounds good to me maybe I'll try it out and see how easy it is to get away with it!
 

d94

Senior member
Apr 18, 2005
595
0
0
if i cought someone jackin my car/stealing my property..id do a whole lot more than just shoot them