Maine court rules in favor of transgender pupil

[alzan]

There is no doubt the process is hard, draining, and stressful on family and friends...that part, I am sympathetic to. But I wasn't talking about that.

The end result, mind you, is changing whatever biologically defines us as male/females and basically calling it something else.

All I was saying, sir.

For me, physical male/female is only the makeup of these fragile shells in which we are encased. The true person (and the entity you're really in love with) is what's on the inside.

 

[Retro Rob]

I would understand that as well.

True, I wasn't trying to limit adoptions. Had my wife and not married late in life and taken on the responsibility of housing and caring for her sister we would have adopted.

Hold on, what if he doesn't want to adopt...what if he wants his own kids?

Why should a man have to adopt someone else's kids to please this transwoman who cannot do this for him?

We have every right to ask our women for kids, and its flat out wrong to ask me to adopt, or give my sperm to some stranger surrogate.

This is what I mean by sheer selfishness.

 

[Sonikku]

Hold on, what if he doesn't want to adopt...what if he wants his own kids?

Why should a man have to adopt someone else's kids to please this transwoman who cannot do this for him?

We have every right to ask our women for kids, and its flat out wrong to ask me to adopt, or give my sperm to some stranger surrogate.

This is what I mean by sheer selfishness.

Are transwomen somehow forcing you to marry them? You sound as though a gun were being pointed to your head and you were forced to dedicate the rest of your life to one. If you want to have your own kids so badly than clearly that is a priority transwomen could never live up to. Thankfully, there are no shortage of natural born women to choose from and statistically speaking, the chances of you falling for a transwoman in your lifetime are very small anyway. But don't marry a natural born woman who is also incapable of bearing a child for any number of health reasons. They can be "selfish" the same way. Expecting a man somewhere out there to love them anyway. The audacity.

 

[alzan]

Hold on, what if he doesn't want to adopt...what if he wants his own kids?

Why should a man have to adopt someone else's kids to please this transwoman who cannot do this for him?

We have every right to ask our women for kids, and its flat out wrong to ask me to adopt, or give my sperm to some stranger surrogate.

This is what I mean by sheer selfishness.

I'm wondering if you can see the sheer hypocrisy of the bolded portion of your post.

We have a right to ask our women for kids?

Because women who are mated to us are our personal incubator slaves?

Hold on, what if the man is infertile? And what if they still want kids?

Whatever are they to do?

If wrong I apologize in advance for the following.

You know I've held back from bringing this up but in light of your post it needs to be said:

I'm smelling the rather pungent and disgusting odor of religious belief running through the majority of your posts in this thread and countless others. While you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, putting them into hypothetical situations, while understandable, is rather distasteful.

Not everyone in the world shares your beliefs and less still your zealotry. It might behoove you to try, just try, to look at things without cross-shaped glasses on.

 

[Retro Rob]

Are transwomen somehow forcing you to marry them? You sound as though a gun were being pointed to your head and you were forced to dedicate the rest of your life to one. If you want to have your own kids so badly than clearly that is a priority transwomen could never live up to. Thankfully, there are no shortage of natural born women to choose from and statistically speaking, the chances of you falling for a transwoman in your lifetime are very small anyway. But don't marry a natural born woman who is also incapable of bearing a child for any number of health reasons. They can be "selfish" the same way. Expecting a man somewhere out there to love them anyway. The audacity.

???

We're taking, right....I cannot share such a strong opinion without being "forced to marry" one?

Check out some of the religious threads where people carry strong opinions who are atheists, not being forced to adhere. It's human, we are talking.

Chill out.

 

[HAL9000]

I think you're best speaking for yourself, because it would definitely be a problem for me, for instance, and I am certain I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Secondly, he fell in love with a "woman"...not someone artificially made to be one. What if he wants to have kids by her, help her through a pregnancy, become a father by her? WRONG!

"Accept ME for who I am...I can care less about what you want"

It doesn't surprise me that people here are OK with someone hiding and lying about what they were/are for the sake of pleasing themselves.

I didn't make any post about toilets. Perhaps you need to direct this to someone else.

I think someone hiding and lying is wrong, but that's an individuals decision to tell the person, I have bipolar disorder, there is a good chance that if I have a child it will also have some mental health problem, but it is my choice when I tell people that I'm bipolar. I shouldn't need a different toilet.

 

[Retro Rob]

I think someone hiding and lying is wrong, but that's an individuals decision to tell the person, I have bipolar disorder, there is a good chance that if I have a child it will also have some mental health problem, but it is my choice when I tell people that I'm bipolar. I shouldn't need a different toilet.

Lol why do you keep bringing up toilets?

 

[HAL9000]

Lol why do you keep bringing up toilets?

It's what the threads about...

Just checked, I'm in the right thread.

Transgender student wasn't allowed in the girls toilets...

 

[Retro Rob]

It's what the threads about...

Just checked, I'm in the right thread.

Transgender student wasn't allowed in the girls toilets...

Oh..ok, you were addressing your toilet posts to me...I assumed they were in response to me as I never mentioned toilets.

Carry on.

 

[HAL9000]

Oh..ok, you were addressing your toilet posts to me...I assumed they were in response to me as I never mentioned toilets.

Carry on.

No not at all, I came into the thread and said "I don't see anything wrong with this" and I still don't, there's nothing wrong with giving transgender people equal rights.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm wondering if you can see the sheer hypocrisy of the bolded portion of your post.

We have a right to ask our women for kids?

Because women who are mated to us are our personal incubator slaves?

Hold on, what if the man is infertile? And what if they still want kids?

Whatever are they to do?

If wrong I apologize in advance for the following.

You know I've held back from bringing this up but in light of your post it needs to be said:

I'm smelling the rather pungent and disgusting odor of religious belief running through the majority of your posts in this thread and countless others. While you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, putting them into hypothetical situations, while understandable, is rather distasteful.

Not everyone in the world shares your beliefs and less still your zealotry. It might behoove you to try, just try, to look at things without cross-shaped glasses on.

Uh...you smell "pungent" religions beliefs because I am religious, captain obvious...and many know this whether you held back from bringing it up or not.

It's just a way to discredit my viewpoint(s), obviously.

 

[Retro Rob]

No not at all, I came into the thread and said "I don't see anything wrong with this" and I still don't, there's nothing wrong with giving transgender people equal rights.

I agree, there isn't anything wrong with that.

 

[Tango]

This whole post is just bull**** because it doesn't address the issue, only masks the potential ramifications under the guise of "life isn't fair...deal with it".

I was asking a serious question about the peculiar situation this would be for one "maintaining his/her identity" against what would be fair to others in society who could experience emotion harm.

Instead, you avoid the point and justify the behavior.

That would be the person you fell in love with. It would be up to you to decide if that is more or less important than the person she used to be.

 

[Iron Woode]

all mtof Transgenders that I know are upfront about their situation when it comes to potential relationships. I am sure there are some that try to hide it for fear of rejection. I believe honesty is the best way to start off any type of relationship.

I understand Rob's POV as he is heterosexual and would like to have kids one day. There is nothing wrong with that.

Alzan needs to accept that religious belief is important to a large percentage of the world's population. Since his beliefs are important to him you don't need to belittle him. Self-righteousness is very disgusting. I follow the 'Live and Let Live' philosophy and try not to judge people. You need to extend Rob the same courtesy.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Acknowledging your past isn't the same as losing your identity. You shouldn't be attempting to deceive the person you love anyway. But even if the transgendered were post op and were able to "pull off" stealth in the bedroom, they aren't doing themselves any favors keeping it a secret. They would spend their whole lives, every single day living in fear of their significant other finding out. That is no way to live. The whole reason why they transition in the first place is to get away from that sort of torment, to discard with the lies. And if their partner is not ok with that kind of thing, then their relationship is doomed to failure because it is based on lies and distrust.

It is selfish to keep your significant other in the dark. They need to know the truth before deciding whether or not to commit the rest of their life to you. But I don't think it is selfish wanting to use the same facilities as the gender you identify as.*

*So long as consideration is afforded to both sides and gaining permission is gained only from a challenging but viable road to prove commitment. Granting permission on a case to case basis only after receiving written recommendations from several trained professionals is fair. It's time consuming. The hoops to jump through serve as a deterrent to abuse. Allowing people to hop in right after they blurt out "I'm feeling fabulous, let me check out the girls locker room right now" is not fair.

The bolded sentence is exactly right. Transgender individuals, unless they transition as a kid (although that situation gets into another side of it), have generally lived their whole lives hiding that they identify with the other gender. The vast majority, if not all of them, will tell a potential romantic interest before it gets too emotionally involved. There are a few reasons for this, first off the aforementioned hiding who they were takes it's toll on a person psychologically and they won't want to have to go back to hiding. Second, if they don't and then get emotionally attached, if they are "found out" and things end they will be hurt just like their partner they hid that from will be hurt.

I think you're best speaking for yourself, because it would definitely be a problem for me, for instance, and I am certain I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Secondly, he fell in love with a "woman"...not someone artificially made to be one. What if he wants to have kids by her, help her through a pregnancy, become a father by her? WRONG!

"Accept ME for who I am...I can care less about what you want"

It doesn't surprise me that people here are OK with someone hiding and lying about what they were/are for the sake of pleasing themselves.

I didn't make any post about toilets. Perhaps you need to direct this to someone else.

As others have pointed out this is a bad logic. A woman (biologically female, and identifies as female) who can't have kids could lie/hide that from her partner. A man who can't have kids could do the same.

Also as a side note, you say "he fell in love with a 'woman'..." Well if you fall in love with somebody, then why not pursue that love?

all mtof Transgenders that I know are upfront about their situation when it comes to potential relationships. I am sure there are some that try to hide it for fear of rejection. I believe honesty is the best way to start off any type of relationship.

I understand Rob's POV as he is heterosexual and would like to have kids one day. There is nothing wrong with that.

Alzan needs to accept that religious belief is important to a large percentage of the world's population. Since his beliefs are important to him you don't need to belittle him. Self-righteousness is very disgusting. I follow the 'Live and Let Live' philosophy and try not to judge people. You need to extend Rob the same courtesy.

Likewise, every trans person I know is up front about that when dating. They might not say it on the first date, but people don't put out there they were sexually assaulted on the first date either. Or that they can't have kids. Or hundreds of other things. But the trans people I know are more up front about their "baggage" than heterosexual people I know about their "baggage" (not to say the hetero people I know hide/lie about it, but they don't disclose their baggage as early as trans people I know disclosing they are trans).

 

[TechBoyJK]

Oh bullshit. You don't have that kind of mental capacity at 2 years old.

or 6

 

[TechBoyJK]

Bad parenting and child abuse? From someone who has no children that's rich. Please tell us more, oh wizened one.

I was hoping this wouldn't have to be explained to you but identifying as one gender or another doesn't necessarily mean having intellectual talks, giving dissertations, rationally weigh the pros and cons, etc..

It is bad parenting and if you try and rationalize it you're f'n nuts.

 

[TechBoyJK]

I see; by linking research (that was done, you know, on children) that shows the different factors contributing to gender identity I'm advocating for child abuse.

Like I said earlier psychology is a vast discipline and while it wasn't my field of expertise I do maintain an interest in it. Since you're unconvinced by linked research data perhaps you should talk to a psychologist about it yourself; after your much needed anger mgmt. sessions.

I'm guessing you didn't read, or even peruse, the data. Color me shocked. Can't help it if you're too lazy (or too inept) to do your own reading and discovery.

"Quack, pseudo-psychology", the frequently uttered words of someone who's lost the argument.

No offense, but you're fucked up.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Pre-op no

Post-op yes

 

[Retro Rob]

As others have pointed out this is a bad logic. A woman (biologically female, and identifies as female) who can't have kids could lie/hide that from her partner. A man who can't have kids could do the same.

That is not bad logic. Being an infertile female isn't the same as a man who cannot bear children...those things are not remotely the same. My anatomy is different from a woman's, so I cannot see how you can compare hiding infertility with hiding that you were born male, as men don't pick women for their child-bearing as much as they simply want women.

The reason why a transwoman can't bear kids is becasue he's not a female, not because he's infertile. That's a whole different ball game.

Also as a side note, you say "he fell in love with a 'woman'..." Well if you fall in love with somebody, then why not pursue that love?

I cannot fathom how you are asking me this with a straight face. I am not gay, and being with a man dressed like a woman is the same with being with a man to me.

Likewise, every trans person I know is up front about that when dating. They might not say it on the first date, but people don't put out there they were sexually assaulted on the first date either. Or that they can't have kids. Or hundreds of other things. But the trans people I know are more up front about their "baggage" than heterosexual people I know about their "baggage" (not to say the hetero people I know hide/lie about it, but they don't disclose their baggage as early as trans people I know disclosing they are trans).

Well, I am glad that they are up-front because I think part of the reason why some people would get violent is becasue they feel deceived by their "lover".

But you have to disclose what sex you were born as (if differen't from your current gender you ID with), as other things like sexual assault are things that aren't your date's business, but what he's actually dating is his business...and immediately should be told to him.

That's the difference.

 

[HAL9000]

I agree, there isn't anything wrong with that.

Jolly good

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

That is not bad logic. Being an infertile female isn't the same as a man who cannot bear children...those things are not remotely the same. My anatomy is different from a woman's, so I cannot see how you can compare hiding infertility with hiding that you were born male, as men don't pick women for their child-bearing as much as they simply want women.

The reason why a transwoman can't bear kids is becasue he's not a female, not because he's infertile. That's a whole different ball game.

They are different causes of the inability to have children biologically, but the result is exactly the same. The argument is it's not right/moral/ethical to hide that you can't have kids from your partner. It doesn't matter if the reason is because you were born a man, you are biologically unable to have kids from birth because of a medical reason, you had a surgery to remove part/all of your reproductive organs, or just refuse to have kids. In all of these cases, it is not fair to your partner to hide that you cannot/will not have a child. Being trans or not is irrelevant to that argument.

I cannot fathom how you are asking me this with a straight face. I am not gay, and being with a man dressed like a woman is the same with being with a man to me.

And this is where we will have to agree to disagree. Personally I think that a post-op trans woman is no different from a biological woman in my opinion. I would view a passable post-op trans woman as a woman, and if I wanted to date her I would. Being born a male doesn't matter in my world view. I understand to others that is not the case.

Well, I am glad that they are up-front because I think part of the reason why some people would get violent is becasue they feel deceived by their "lover".

Correct. A "surprise I was born a man!" situation can result in the trans person being hurt physically. They face that risk just in general public if they are "outed" in the wrong crowd. That's why any of the ones I have talked to, know, or met will put it out there early on.

But you have to disclose what sex you were born as (if differen't from your current gender you ID with), as other things like sexual assault are things that aren't your date's business, but what he's actually dating is his business...and immediately should be told to him.

That's the difference.

On a first date? No that doesn't need disclosed. I don't think being trans needs disclosed on the first date. They can be, but they don't have to be. The reason I don't think trans people need to disclose from the start is because things could turn very bad for the trans person (violence, or a public outing that could cause them to get fired, etc).

However I think both being trans and things like being sexually assaulted should be disclosed. Because those things are part of who a person is. And a previous sexual assault could have PTSD, other mental issues resulting from it, or have triggers that could happen. And a partner should be aware of things like that so they understand how the person with the past needs things to work in the relationship.

 

[alzan]

all mtof Transgenders that I know are upfront about their situation when it comes to potential relationships. I am sure there are some that try to hide it for fear of rejection. I believe honesty is the best way to start off any type of relationship.

I understand Rob's POV as he is heterosexual and would like to have kids one day. There is nothing wrong with that.

Alzan needs to accept that religious belief is important to a large percentage of the world's population. Since his beliefs are important to him you don't need to belittle him. Self-righteousness is very disgusting. I follow the 'Live and Let Live' philosophy and try not to judge people. You need to extend Rob the same courtesy.

What I said to Rob was that he's entitled to his religious views, at no point did I say or imply that my views were superior to his. Condescending, probably; but not self righteous.

Rob originally asked about a trans-person interested in dating and wrote that they should reveal their past up front. I never said that lying about one's past was the proper way to start a relationship but I could understand why a trans-person would not be up front about it; mostly because the societal backlash represented by a large percentage of replies in this thread. If he brings up hypotheticals as a way of understanding particular situations he should be neutral as far as religious/spiritual beliefs since not everyone shares those beliefs.

@Techboy JK:

No where in the article in the OP was there evidence of child abuse or bad parenting; since none of us know the family or Nicole it's highly presumptious to allege abuse of any kind. You're certainly welcome to your views but without a thorough knowledge of Nicole's upbringing they're ill-logical.

No offense taken

@ Rob M:

No Rob, I'm not in anyway discrediting your beliefs. I merely suggested that fervent belief can be an intellectual/emotional "blinder" and a hindrance to dealing with reality.