Made a discovery-- FujiFilm Finepix S8100fd

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
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So I was helping some friends dig through a lot of old trashed/discarded belongings, and came upon a really nice looking point & shoot digital camera in a camera bag.

It looks like the model was dated to around 2008, although last use was probably late 2009. After removing the corroded batteries and accompanying gunk, and slipping in new batteries, I noticed several things:

This camera doesn't seem very sensitive to light! Granted, I was shooting in low light, end of day settings, but only after pushing ISO to 6400, aperture to f2.8, and shutter to 25 did I get this a bright image.

I'm a relative novice with even point & clicks (conceptually I am fairly sound, but technical/execution is a different case) so any tricks/things I should be aware of?

Is the lens likely shot and that's reducing the camera's sensitivity to light?
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
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it has a tiny sensor and a meh aperture, i wouldnt expect it to do well in low light situations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format

i have an lx7 which has a (slightly) larger sensor and opens to f1.4 and its still meh at low light shots. really pretty decent for long exposure star shots, and great with decent or good lighting. but in low light...i dont take good shots with it, i take shots for memories sake, but not expecting really good pictures.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
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Thanks for the link and the tips guys.

It's a fun little toy to practice on. Was still taken aback at the size of lense you'd theoretically need to capture the kinds of shots prosumer shots capture with ease.
 

TehMac

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Aug 18, 2006
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So new random question: At a basic technical level I get what shutter speed, aperture, and ISO do in relation to each other.

What I'd like to read into is how to more quickly gauge (assuming a consistently Low and unchanging ISO for daylight shots around 64) what combination of shutter speed and aperture work for making for determining the elements of the frame I want in focus and not blown out and gauging the lumens on the various textures.

Any recommended reading on these concepts and what principles to follow?
 

CuriousMike

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2001
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P&S's easy mode usually consider the whole scene ( "matrix metering" ) when determining what exposure ( shutter speed and aperture ) to choose.

On DSLR's and some P&S's, the user can pick an area of the image to focus ( spot focus.)
They can also choose "spot metering"; so, based on the spot you want in focus, the camera will only use that area to meter for shutter speed and aperture.

In the image below, each of the squares represents a potential single spot for focusing.
On your cameras viewfinder, you see all of those spots, and the one selected would be highlighted ( for example, in red.) Unfortunately, this example image doesn't show that.

It's possible your camera has the ability to modify it's exposure from matrix metering so some other metering -- read the docs.
focuspointsExample.gif
 

CuriousMike

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2001
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Well, I should have just googled your camera.
From a review ( http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=3559&review=fuji+finepix+s8100 ) ,

"Auto Focus

The S8100fd strikes a nice balance on focusing modes and options, providing enough tools to keep serious shooters happy without clogging up the menus. AF area modes include a default center setting (from which the timing numbers above were gathered), an automatic multi-area mode, and a manually controlled multi-area mode that allows use of the d-pad to select the focusing point.

I grew particularly fond of the user-selected multi-area setting. The system’s seven-by-seven position grid yields an SLR-like 49 focusing points that are easy to switch between and lock in. It’s a fairly advanced, appropriately intuitive interface that suits this higher-end device nicely."

For metering,
"The S8100fd provides three metering options - multi-area, center-weighted, and average - with multi-area serving as the default setting. "
 

TehMac

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Aug 18, 2006
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That's interesting! Had no idea that there is a multi-area focusing scheme that could be set via d-pad. Unless I missed it, the owner's manual doesn't cover that at all. There's an option to turn Manual-focus on (MF) but it ridiculously crimps usability (to my knowledge/efforts, you can't adjust aperture or shutter speed while in MF mode)

I'd be curious to learn more about this D-pad feature...
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
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So new random question: At a basic technical level I get what shutter speed, aperture, and ISO do in relation to each other.

What I'd like to read into is how to more quickly gauge (assuming a consistently Low and unchanging ISO for daylight shots around 64) what combination of shutter speed and aperture work for making for determining the elements of the frame I want in focus and not blown out and gauging the lumens on the various textures.

Any recommended reading on these concepts and what principles to follow?

"the elements of the frame I want in focus" -- you are referring to a concept called Depth of Field or DOF. For example, a given setup might have a DOF of 5 to 10 feet; this means that everything within that distance from the lens is in focus (technically: acceptable focus, not perfect focus), while everything outside of that range is progressively out of focus; stuff at 11 feet might be a little blurry, while stuff at 200 feet is way blurry. (This is all based on planes, not raw distance; all focus distances measure the distance to a plane parallel to the camera's sensor, except in the case of fancy cameras and lenses that let you tilt the lens, which I will not address here.)

DOF is determined by 4 elements:

1) Sensor/film size. The smaller the sensor/film, the more in focus everything will be; i.e., the DOF will be greater. This is why most digital cameras, phone cameras, etc. have effectively infinite depth of field; almost everything that you can see is in focus. It is hard to do the "selective focus" thing where you have, say, a person's face in focus and the background blurry. This is because their sensors are so small. Going up to larger sensors such as those in DSLR's makes it easier to get a narrow DOF.

2) Aperture. All else being equal, a larger aperture (smaller number, in f-stops) will generate a narrower DOF, i.e., less of the shot will be in focus. (For a lens with a large aperture like f/1.4, on a full-frame DSLR, the DOF could be measured in fractions of an inch.) Stepping down the aperture (making it smaller) generates a larger DOF. This is why, in landscape photography, people usually want to shoot at small apertures like f/11 or f/16, to get more of the shot into focus.

3) Focal length. (I will use 35mm-equivalent focal lengths here, since that's what everybody is most familiar with.) 50mm is considered "normal", this is approximately what your eyes see, i.e. not "zoomed in" or "zoomed out", just plain. Lower than that is considered wide-angle, and longer than that is considered telephoto or "long". A classic wide-angle focal length is 28mm, while a classic telephoto focal length is 200mm. All else being equal, a wider focal length will give more DOF than a longer focal length. A full-frame DSLR using a 28mm lens at f/2.8 might have a DOF in the tens of feet, while the same camera with a 200mm lens at f/2.8 might have a DOF of less than a foot.

4) Focus Distance. Closer focus distance = smaller DOF. Take a set camera, set lens, set aperture, set focal length. Now move the subject close, so the focus distance is 2 feet. This will result in a very narrow DOF. This is taken to extremes with macro lenses where the subject is held only inches away from the lens, and the DOF is measured in millimeters. Take that same camera/lens/aperture/focal length and focus it to 20 feet away, and it will have a very large DOF. In fact, it could be infinite.

Every lens has what is called a "hyperfocal distance" which means that it is effectively focused to Infinity. On a wide-angle lens, this might be 10 feet or less; on a telephoto, it might be hundreds of feet. Hyperfocal distance is saying "everything from this point back to infinity will be in clear focus." Of course, the hyperfocal distance is not just based on the focus distance. It is based on the system as a whole, and incorporates all 4 of the elements above. This gets back to the point I made at the beginning, where you have small sensor digicams with effectively infinite focus. This is because their hyperfocal distance is very short.

That's my primer on DOF. Here is a very good website that you can use to calculate DOF for any set of parameters:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Ok, now, you also ask about how to quickly gauge exposure. There is the "sunny f/16 rule" which tells you that on a sunny day, you can set your aperture to f/16, and your shutter speed to 1/ISO, and you'll have a good basic exposure. (You can adjust this: for "bright cloudy" days use f/11; "mostly cloudy" days use f/8; "overcast" days use f/5.6.) So if your ISO is 64, use f/16 and 1/64 shutter speed (probably closest your camera comes would be 1/60 shutter speed) to give a first approximation of your exposure. Now, chances are this will not be a very useful exposure. So you can vary your aperture and shutter speed in opposite directions: say instead of f/16, you go to f/8 (a 2-stop difference) which means you can make your shutter speed 2 stops faster, from 1/60 to 1/250. This will limit your DOF a bit (although on a P&S, it likely won't make much difference) and probably make your shot sharper because it will have less motion blur, as a 1/60 shutter speed is prone to blurriness with moving subjects and/or shaky hands. Or take it another stop, f/5.6 and 1/500. Or another stop, f/4 and 1/1000. Another stop, f/2.8 and 1/2000. Playing around with the DOF calculator, it seems that you can get some good blurred backgrounds with this camera at its widest aperture settings, although the best it goes at full telephoto is f/4.5.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
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Really in depth post, appreciate it, especially since my question was superficially broad.

I have a couple of questions, but let me take a stab at one that's been on my mind for a while: When I see a stat like this: Zoom 18x (27-486mm) Fujinon zoom, f/2.8-4.5

What are saying? 18x zoom. 18 multiplied by what? Are they factoring in the slightly smaller-than-full-frame image sensor?
 

fralexandr

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Apr 26, 2007
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the 18x zoom is just 486/27 = 18. It's just abbreviating the relative "length" of the lens.
for the shooter, the "lengths" actually approximate an "angle" of view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_view#Common_lens_angles_of_view

For point and shoots, usually the lengths listed are relative to full frame.

The fuji s8100fd uses a 1/2.3" sensor which is essentially the "typical" size used in most point and shoots and smart phone cameras.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format

a 1/2.3" sensor occupies ~28.50 mm^2
an APS-C sensor ~360 mm^2
and a 35mm/Full Frame ~ 860mm^2

This big difference in sensor area is typically why low light performance on point and shoots is so poor, and also how the point and shoots can be so much more portable than a DSLR.
 
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slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
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To expand a bit: the actual physical focal length of the lens in your camera is 4.7mm - 84.2mm. This corresponds to a focal length of 27-486mm on a 35mm/full-frame camera. 18x is simply the ratio of the longest focal length to the shortest focal length of the lens. The image sensor actually doesn't enter the equation, or rather, it cancels out.

The f/2.8-4.5 means that the maximum aperture varies with the focal length of the lens. So when you're zoomed all the way out, the maximum aperture is f/2.8. When you're zoomed all the way in, the maximum aperture is f/4.5.

Usually, the greater the zoom factor of a lens, the more compromises went into its design and construction. In the DSLR world, the highest quality lenses are primes; that is, they don't zoom at all, they have a fixed focal length. These are able to offer huge apertures like f/1.2, f/1.4, f/1.8, etc. which are not available on any zoom lens, period. When it comes to zoom lenses, the highest quality lenses top out in the 3x to 4x zoom range. 70-200mm, 24-70mm, etc. While there are some DSLR lenses that push this to superzoom levels (10x zoom and higher) they are never quite up to par with respect to image quality; however, their versatility and ease of use (never have to switch lenses) is appreciated by many.

And as fralexandr noted, 1/2.3" is more than "slightly" smaller than full-frame, it's like 30x smaller than full-frame.
 

TehMac

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Aug 18, 2006
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Thanks again for the indepth response, but for whatever reason, I am still being tripped up by something.

Is the 486mm length (for example) referring to a horizontal vector measuring the fully extended tube holding the camera's lens at max tele?
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
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Thanks again for the indepth response, but for whatever reason, I am still being tripped up by something.

Is the 486mm length (for example) referring to a horizontal vector measuring the fully extended tube holding the camera's lens at max tele?
Angle-of-View-from-BandH.jpg


http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/Lens101/

The focal length is the distance from the center of the lens to the front or rear focal point along its focal axis. For a simple, symmetric lens these are the same distance. This qualification will become relavent later. The focal length of a lens is determined primarily by the curvature of its surfaces. It is also affected by the index of refraction of the glass and the medium in which the lens resides. The index of refraction is simply the ratio between the speed of light in a vacuum and the speed of light in a given substance. The greater the curvature, the thicker the lens, and the shorter the focal length is.
 
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