MacBook Air in a Windows environment?

[lsquare]

I'm seriously interested in picking up the Haswell base MBA. I'm somewhat disappointed that Microsoft haven't made the same kind of OS optimizations that Apple have made to improve battery life. My concern is how will a MBA work in a Windows base environment? Will I be able to easily transfer files from the MBA to my desktop via wifi?

What about external hard drives? I know OSX uses a different kind of file system. So can I go to a retail store, pick up an external hard drive and plug and play or it have to be formatted to HFS? If so, will Windows be able to read the content of the drive? One thing that I intend to use an external hard drive for is to backup my photos while I'm travelling. By the time I get home, I want to transfer the photos to my desktop which is using Windows.

 

[Kaido]

Macs support SMB transfers, so yeah, folder sharing works fine. Or you can use Dropbox. Apple also has AirDrop, which lets you do simple file sharing between Macs, and someone similar program that works across platforms:

http://www.filedropme.com/

Macs can read Mac-formatted drives (HFS) plus FAT-formatted drives. There are a variety of NTFS drivers available, Paragon is pretty good for $20 if you need to read/write on NTFS drives: (free ones are also available)

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-mac/

Vice-versa, you'd need a Mac driver to read Mac-formatted drives on Windows. Here's a couple:

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/hfs-windows/

http://www.mediafour.com/products

 

[Cerb]

I'm seriously interested in picking up the Haswell base MBA. I'm somewhat disappointed that Microsoft haven't made the same kind of OS optimizations that Apple have made to improve battery life.

They have. They just suck at marketing, in comparison.

My concern is how will a MBA work in a Windows base environment? Will I be able to easily transfer files from the MBA to my desktop via wifi?

Can you do it easily, right now, with Windows?

If so, then you're set. 99% of the time, you'll face the same problems, if any, as Windows to Windows sharing, outside of a domain environment. So, if you have 2 or more Windows boxes talking to one another, now, everything should already be correctly set up (so long as they aren't 7 on a Homegroup...that may work, but Homegroups were a bad half-baked idea and implementation). If not (single home PC), you'll just have to change your advanced sharing settings, and make shares (FI: public folder sharing off, password-protected sharing on, and set to use user accounts and passwords).

I can't say you won't have a couple configuration hiccups, even if so (and, 95% of the time, it just works), but nothing too difficult, if so. To put it another way, you don't see people talking about it much, more because it tends to work well enough, than because they're not doing it.

What about external hard drives? I know OSX uses a different kind of file system. So can I go to a retail store, pick up an external hard drive and plug and play or it have to be formatted to HFS? If so, will Windows be able to read the content of the drive? One thing that I intend to use an external hard drive for is to backup my photos while I'm travelling. By the time I get home, I want to transfer the photos to my desktop which is using Windows.

Add NTFS support, and you'll be good to go, using Windows' native FS. The included support may not work reliably, the free software that let's you use NTFS-3G might need a little more legwork, and Paragon's isn't free. Try FUSE for OS X (updated MacFUSE), and see how it does (I can't vouch for the latest OS X versions, unfortunately). NTFS-3G itself is quite good.

You could also use exFAT, but then you'd need to be paranoid about safe unmounting. FAT32, which most drives come formatted in, not only isn't journaled, but can't handle files larger than 4GB.

 

[TheStu]

Honestly, I would just say to wait until the PC ultrabooks get their Haswell refresh and Windows 8.1 (not sure when that is coming, though we should hopefully know in a few hours), and go with that instead. You're trying to fit an apple shaped peg into a windows flag-shaped hole. Sure, you can make it fit, but why not get something that will work right away without any additional software?

 

[Cerb]

Honestly, I would just say to wait until the PC ultrabooks get their Haswell refresh and Windows 8.1 (not sure when that is coming, though we should hopefully know in a few hours), and go with that instead. You're trying to fit an apple shaped peg into a windows flag-shaped hole. Sure, you can make it fit, but why not get something that will work right away without any additional software?

I'm far from a Mac person, but NTFS licensing is really the only major issue, and it's been solved, in one way or another, for years now. Samba and Bonjour make file and print sharing often easier than an actual Windows box.

If the OP would prefer Windows, but for battery life, then yes, wait for more mature Haswell Ultrabooks. If the OP would like a Macbook Air, but for OS X compatibility issues, they're generally not hard to deal with.

 

[JAG87]

Just so the OP understands, because it's not clear in any of the replies: OSX reads NTFS drives. It just needs a driver if you have to write to the drive.

exFAT is a pretty simple solution if you don't want to bother with NTFS, and your files are not very small (i.e. smaller than 1MB, the smallest cluster in exFAT is 128K, so there would be a lot of slack space). And remember not to format exFAT with a cluster larger than 1024K, otherwise OSX will not mount it.

 

[sxr7171]

It works just fine again after they finally fixed SMB. So network transfers are like with any Windows machine. They'll also work perfectly off the same NAS.

There is an Apple HFS driver for Windows.

 

[lsquare]

They have. They just suck at marketing, in comparison.
Can you do it easily, right now, with Windows?

Really? If that's the case, then how not no comparable spec Ultrabook with Windows have a battery life as long as the MBA?

 

[Cerb]

Really? If that's the case, then how not no comparable spec Ultrabook with Windows have a battery life as long as the MBA?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7047/the-haswell-ultrabook-review-core-i74500u-tested/5
Near 60% improvement. All they have to do is make a similar one with a weaker CPU, lower-power SSD, and lower-power display (the SSDs for that are coming out now). Now, how do they convince people that's worth paying as much or more for?

Most makers aren't selling to Apple fans, and are concerned with things like making sure the new one is also faster than the old one. They're also waiting on, or just doing, solid implementations of new sleep states for SSDs, and making the most of add-on GPUs with a limited battery. To do so at a reasonable price (they also don't command Apple margins), it's going to take them longer, since they have to wait on the whole supply chain to catch up, by which point their competition has all the same advantages available (hence not being able to command those margins, instead having to compete with razor thin margins). They're mostly selling more units, too, so some parts, like particular displays, leave them extremely sensitive to supply and pricing.

Much of the regular PC buying public wants cheaper craptops if it's going to be slower, so the long-life models tend to be either (a) more mature in general, for given generation, or (b) more mature due to testing and design refinements, because they are either only business-class units, or business-class units with cross-over colored-plastic high-end consumer models.

Businesses will buy better products that aren't faster, or full of gimmicks. The pre-Haswell MBA's battery life, FI, has long been matched by Fujitsu Lifebooks. Such products typically aren't marketed directly to consumers, and tend to come out later in a given CPU/chipset's life cycle. Apple is unique in being able to, or maybe willing to, sell products like they do. The hardware is certainly good, but the combination of design, willingness to invest (that SSD, drivers for it, and those custom mobos, weren't free), and ability to combine it all with consumer marketing, is very different, though.

 

[sxr7171]

Haswell Ultrabooks will have better battery life so we need to wait for those. However as we've seen with every battery life comparison of a Macbook Air running Windows vs. Mac OS there are OS level power optimizations.

Another reason is design and weight. By current Windows Ultrabook standards both sizes of the Air are heavier and have a larger footprint than several Windows Ultrabooks. That's how they squeeze in extra battery in the Macbook Air machines.

The Air is after all a 3 year old design now.

 

[lsquare]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7047/the-haswell-ultrabook-review-core-i74500u-tested/5
Near 60% improvement. All they have to do is make a similar one with a weaker CPU, lower-power SSD, and lower-power display (the SSDs for that are coming out now). Now, how do they convince people that's worth paying as much or more for?

Most makers aren't selling to Apple fans, and are concerned with things like making sure the new one is also faster than the old one. They're also waiting on, or just doing, solid implementations of new sleep states for SSDs, and making the most of add-on GPUs with a limited battery. To do so at a reasonable price (they also don't command Apple margins), it's going to take them longer, since they have to wait on the whole supply chain to catch up, by which point their competition has all the same advantages available (hence not being able to command those margins, instead having to compete with razor thin margins). They're mostly selling more units, too, so some parts, like particular displays, leave them extremely sensitive to supply and pricing.

Much of the regular PC buying public wants cheaper craptops if it's going to be slower, so the long-life models tend to be either (a) more mature in general, for given generation, or (b) more mature due to testing and design refinements, because they are either only business-class units, or business-class units with cross-over colored-plastic high-end consumer models.

Businesses will buy better products that aren't faster, or full of gimmicks. The pre-Haswell MBA's battery life, FI, has long been matched by Fujitsu Lifebooks. Such products typically aren't marketed directly to consumers, and tend to come out later in a given CPU/chipset's life cycle. Apple is unique in being able to, or maybe willing to, sell products like they do. The hardware is certainly good, but the combination of design, willingness to invest (that SSD, drivers for it, and those custom mobos, weren't free), and ability to combine it all with consumer marketing, is very different, though.

I was specifically referring to Windows base Haswell Ultrabooks. Not even the new Sony Vaio Pro 11 or 13 can approach the same level of battery life as their Haswell base MBAs. I have yet to see any premium Haswell base Ultrabooks come anywhere close to 8 hours of battery life using the same benchmark criterias that were used for the Haswell MBAs.

That's a lot of what ifs that you're referring to right now. I think it was Anand that first cited that Microsoft haven't made the same time kind of optimization with Windows as Apple have with OSX in regards to battery life. I have yet to have seen any evidence that Microsoft have made those optimizations as you and someone else have alleged. I think Ars even had a review of the Haswell MBAs where Windows 8 was virtualized, but it only achieved about 6 hours of battery life.

Don't get me wrong here, I love Windows. I have been using Windows, but lately it seems like Apple is the only one that's moving in the right direction. I don't really want to learn how to use a new OS, but I'm willing to overlook that if I can realistically achieve 10 hours of battery life with my laptop.

 

[lsquare]

Haswell Ultrabooks will have better battery life so we need to wait for those. However as we've seen with every battery life comparison of a Macbook Air running Windows vs. Mac OS there are OS level power optimizations.

Another reason is design and weight. By current Windows Ultrabook standards both sizes of the Air are heavier and have a larger footprint than several Windows Ultrabooks. That's how they squeeze in extra battery in the Macbook Air machines.

The Air is after all a 3 year old design now.

So far I haven't seen a single Haswell Ultrabook that approaches 8-10 hours of battery life without a secondary battery. Furthermore, like I said in my previous comment, even a Haswell MBA that virutalized Windows 8 couldn't achieve 10 hours of battery life. I want to believe you and the other guy, but the evidence just doesn't speak for itself. I haven't seen any evidence that Windows is as power efficient as OSX. I first became aware of this when Anand mentioned it in one of his old reviews.

I love Windows. I have been using it for much of my life. I don't really want to learn how to use another OS if I don't have to, but I will refuse to buy a Windows laptop going forward unless it can realistically achieve 8-10 hours of battery life.

 

[TheStu]

So far I haven't seen a single Haswell Ultrabook that approaches 8-10 hours of battery life without a secondary battery. Furthermore, like I said in my previous comment, even a Haswell MBA that virutalized Windows 8 couldn't achieve 10 hours of battery life. I want to believe you and the other guy, but the evidence just doesn't speak for itself. I haven't seen any evidence that Windows is as power efficient as OSX. I first became aware of this when Anand mentioned it in one of his old reviews.

I love Windows. I have been using it for much of my life. I don't really want to learn how to use another OS if I don't have to, but I will refuse to buy a Windows laptop going forward unless it can realistically achieve 8-10 hours of battery life.

It's not just Microsoft here, Apple controls the entire stack, they can tweak and optimize to get the maximum battery life.

In fact, IIRC, Microsoft has an open invitation to any and all OEMs to have them bring their systems in and they'll work with MS engineers to optimize it, but you can only go so far.

 

[sxr7171]

So far I haven't seen a single Haswell Ultrabook that approaches 8-10 hours of battery life without a secondary battery. Furthermore, like I said in my previous comment, even a Haswell MBA that virutalized Windows 8 couldn't achieve 10 hours of battery life. I want to believe you and the other guy, but the evidence just doesn't speak for itself. I haven't seen any evidence that Windows is as power efficient as OSX. I first became aware of this when Anand mentioned it in one of his old reviews.

I love Windows. I have been using it for much of my life. I don't really want to learn how to use another OS if I don't have to, but I will refuse to buy a Windows laptop going forward unless it can realistically achieve 8-10 hours of battery life.

I'm agreeing with you. Win 8 is not as optimized as Mac OS for battery life. But I think we'll see better than the realistic 3-4 hours Win 8 ultrabooks currently have.

But if Apple made a 2.5lb 13" Air then it would come down to maybe 6-7 hours. Given they did not want to upgrade the design they had to increase battery life. This is not to take credit away from them for spending years improving their OS efficiency, this was their plan for years.

Apple is very particular about which direction it wants to go as new tech comes out. They are very big on battery life because it really is an essential spec. But I must admit the 2011 11" Air I have only gives me a real 2.5-3 hours. I think 2013 models will provide 5-7 realistically.

As for the switch Mac OS is very easy to learn and get used to, if anything using Mac OS and returning to Windows is a headache. Familiar but getting your initial settings and preferences in takes a while, a lot of google searching and possibly some regedit. With Mac OS you will maybe do a handful of Google searches and get set up quickly. I feel like once your machine is set up how you like it, they are about the same. But that Mac trackpad is another level. Such a perfect implementation.

 

[vbuggy]

I'm agreeing with you. Win 8 is not as optimized as Mac OS for battery life. But I think we'll see better than the realistic 3-4 hours Win 8 ultrabooks currently have.

Define realistic. Most Apple battery estimates cater for, and publications obligingly test for, optimised use - and in real life, non-media, productivity use I have trouble getting more than 70~75% of Apple's claimed runtimes, and that's with extensive power saving enabled.

And we're not talking Boot Camp. We're talking OS X. Throw Boot Camp in and things obviously get worse.

Whereas with Windows notebooks, under the same yardstick - though many Windows notebooks have the advantage of slightly more granular control over runtime - I can hit usually manufacturer claims, at least with Lenovo and Sony. And I'm not doing any 'oh I don't use any plugin that's actually useful on the web' nonsense that Applezombie hypermilers do.

 

[lsquare]

It's not just Microsoft here, Apple controls the entire stack, they can tweak and optimize to get the maximum battery life.

In fact, IIRC, Microsoft has an open invitation to any and all OEMs to have them bring their systems in and they'll work with MS engineers to optimize it, but you can only go so far.

How does this even relate to the OEM? Are you suggesting the OEMs implement their own optimizations into Windows? If so, I've never heard of this. I usually reinstall a clean version of Windows into my laptop to eliminate the crapware. AFAIK, I won't have to do with that with a MacBook.

 

[lsquare]

I'm agreeing with you. Win 8 is not as optimized as Mac OS for battery life. But I think we'll see better than the realistic 3-4 hours Win 8 ultrabooks currently have.

But if Apple made a 2.5lb 13" Air then it would come down to maybe 6-7 hours. Given they did not want to upgrade the design they had to increase battery life. This is not to take credit away from them for spending years improving their OS efficiency, this was their plan for years.

Apple is very particular about which direction it wants to go as new tech comes out. They are very big on battery life because it really is an essential spec. But I must admit the 2011 11" Air I have only gives me a real 2.5-3 hours. I think 2013 models will provide 5-7 realistically.

As for the switch Mac OS is very easy to learn and get used to, if anything using Mac OS and returning to Windows is a headache. Familiar but getting your initial settings and preferences in takes a while, a lot of google searching and possibly some regedit. With Mac OS you will maybe do a handful of Google searches and get set up quickly. I feel like once your machine is set up how you like it, they are about the same. But that Mac trackpad is another level. Such a perfect implementation.

Ironically I'm not very impressed with the iPhone 5's real world battery life, but that's another story for another day. Obviously the battery life will depend on the workload, but from what I gather, if I have a light workload (document reading/editing, watching movies, web browsing, and etc.), I should be able to achieve at least 10 hours of battery life. That's pretty good and will easily last an intercontinental flight from anywhere in North America. It's not like most people will stay up for the entire flight so even if I get 8 hours, it's still more than enough as I'll sleep for 4-5 hours on the flight. I suspect Mavericks will offer even better battery life than Mountain Lion. It's disappointing that the gap between OSX and Windows is now widening.

I'm also further investing into Apple's ecosystem. I get the sense that Apple is moving quicker to tie all of their products together. I like how iWork documents will now sync across all of their platforms. I like how the next version of Safari will sync passwords across all of their platforms and the list goes on. Microsoft have a similar level of integration, but their browsers doesn't seem to meet my needs as Safari will. I would probably balk at migrating to OSX if the most important software that I use isn't available, but that's simply not the case.

 

[MrColin]

I find that Finder will occasionally lock up when trying to resume an smb connection to my Win Server 2012 box after waking my 2012 MBP from sleep. However, if I re-initiate the connection via command+k instead of just browsing from the finder side bar there is no problem. It has no problem accessing my win7 desktop, and Mountain Lion stores the credentials just fine for the different hosts. I've written some scripts (bash) to mount windows shares too using stored credentials that work fine as well.

 

[vbuggy]

How does this even relate to the OEM? Are you suggesting the OEMs implement their own optimizations into Windows? If so, I've never heard of this. I usually reinstall a clean version of Windows into my laptop to eliminate the crapware. AFAIK, I won't have to do with that with a MacBook.

Pretty much everyone who makes a decent notebook does. The problem is that a lot of people who think they know what they're doing either wipe everything in the belief that everything is bloatware and start from stock Windows, or Mac-daily-driver users who inexplicably review Windows notebooks in major publications who have not yet got round to learning how Control Panel, let alone each OEM's power-saving customisations, work.

Pro-use HP's for example has an exact power-usage readout in their product suite so you can monitor how certain types of use impacts battery life.

 

[sxr7171]

Define realistic. Most Apple battery estimates cater for, and publications obligingly test for, optimised use - and in real life, non-media, productivity use I have trouble getting more than 70~75% of Apple's claimed runtimes, and that's with extensive power saving enabled.

And we're not talking Boot Camp. We're talking OS X. Throw Boot Camp in and things obviously get worse.

Whereas with Windows notebooks, under the same yardstick - though many Windows notebooks have the advantage of slightly more granular control over runtime - I can hit usually manufacturer claims, at least with Lenovo and Sony. And I'm not doing any 'oh I don't use any plugin that's actually useful on the web' nonsense that Applezombie hypermilers do.

That's a very good point. I used to use a Thinkpad X31 years ago to solely read notes and eBooks. I was able to optimize for about 9w with the display slightly below mid way. The same with other X-series Thinkpads. So I did get close to the number they quoted. I would even carry a spare battery to double that number.

With the Macbook Air for that usage, which is the lightest possible usage, I feel I don't have much control beyond changing the screen brightness. The glossy screen doesn't help there either. I need more backlight brightness to read than I would with a matte screen.

 

[sxr7171]

Ironically I'm not very impressed with the iPhone 5's real world battery life, but that's another story for another day. Obviously the battery life will depend on the workload, but from what I gather, if I have a light workload (document reading/editing, watching movies, web browsing, and etc.), I should be able to achieve at least 10 hours of battery life. That's pretty good and will easily last an intercontinental flight from anywhere in North America. It's not like most people will stay up for the entire flight so even if I get 8 hours, it's still more than enough as I'll sleep for 4-5 hours on the flight. I suspect Mavericks will offer even better battery life than Mountain Lion. It's disappointing that the gap between OSX and Windows is now widening.

I'm also further investing into Apple's ecosystem. I get the sense that Apple is moving quicker to tie all of their products together. I like how iWork documents will now sync across all of their platforms. I like how the next version of Safari will sync passwords across all of their platforms and the list goes on. Microsoft have a similar level of integration, but their browsers doesn't seem to meet my needs as Safari will. I would probably balk at migrating to OSX if the most important software that I use isn't available, but that's simply not the case.

Mavericks will certainly improve on battery life. It's hard to say what you will actually get with the Macbook Air until you try it, but as vbuggy has alluded to it is hard to get the number they advertise.

As for ecosystem Apple is only one that provides a proper ecosystem. One could argue that maybe Android plus Chrome browser can do the same but I haven't tried it. And I try to reduce my dependence on Google products as much as I can. I don't like the idea of one company getting pretty much every piece of possible data on me.

The iTunes and iCloud integration is just great. Especially with iTunes match. You never need to actually carry any music or video on your SSD unless you will be away from internet.

I'm pretty entrenched into the Apple ecosystem and I've often thought about what I'll do if I feel the need to migrate to another ecosystem. It's not really that hard. You could keep one Mac, maybe a Mac Mini and use an iPod Touch for all iOS related control functions. Alternatively, at least for music you can download your whole library since it's DRM free and migrate everything to other clouds like Amazon or Google Play. For video you're stuck so I think that at a minimum you would need an Apple TV and an iPod Touch lying around at home.

In reality I don't foresee any ecosystem offering the convenience and integration of the Apple ecosystem in the near future. It's more of a "just in case" thing and hopefully will dispel any fears of getting stuck with any ecosystem.

 

[sxr7171]

One thing about the MBA is I expected them to offer WWAN options this year. Pretty surprised they didn't.

 

[alkemyst]

The main problem with Macs in a Windows environment is they do things like connect to servers, printers, etc differently. Once you know the steps/syntax everything works like a PC.

Of course you can always do things like just install Windows on the Mac or better yet as I do and run Parallels (or VM Fusion). I need Visio and Internet Explorer for many things even on my mid-2010 15" base model MBP it's very snappy with everything open in convergence mode.

 

[lsquare]

Macs support SMB transfers, so yeah, folder sharing works fine. Or you can use Dropbox. Apple also has AirDrop, which lets you do simple file sharing between Macs, and someone similar program that works across platforms:

http://www.filedropme.com/

Macs can read Mac-formatted drives (HFS) plus FAT-formatted drives. There are a variety of NTFS drivers available, Paragon is pretty good for $20 if you need to read/write on NTFS drives: (free ones are also available)

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-mac/

Vice-versa, you'd need a Mac driver to read Mac-formatted drives on Windows. Here's a couple:

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/hfs-windows/

http://www.mediafour.com/products

Sorry for bumping up this thread. I held off on the MacBook Air. Since the creation of this thread, the new Retina MacBook Pros have been released.

How good are the NTFS drivers like the Paragon software that you have recommended? Have they been tested extensively so that one can have confidence that not only is it 100% compatible with NTFS drives, but that the odds of data corruption are kept as low as if it was Windows writing to the filesystem? I am concerned about data corruption.

 

[Kaido]

Sorry for bumping up this thread. I held off on the MacBook Air. Since the creation of this thread, the new Retina MacBook Pros have been released.

How good are the NTFS drivers like the Paragon software that you have recommended? Have they been tested extensively so that one can have confidence that not only is it 100% compatible with NTFS drives, but that the odds of data corruption are kept as low as if it was Windows writing to the filesystem? I am concerned about data corruption.

I've had good success with Paragon. I wish it were free (and there are free alternatives), but they are a commercial company and keep their software up-to-date to keep customers happy, so I roll with it. I work with a lot of NTFS drives so it was worth it for me.

With that said, always backup your stuff! Data corruption can happen anywhere. I've had more than one friend lose years worth of their children's photos because they didn't have a backup system.