M.2 SSD preferably NVMe

[Lepton87]

So I got ASUS RAMPAGE V and it supports M.2 PCI-E 4X slot so it should be as good as an PCI-E SSD connected to the 4X slot that seems pretty awesome, I have an mSATA drive in my laptop and I thought that was the only non-proprietary standard for small form factor SSDs. Fortunately it has its replacement so If I'm replacing SATA why not get rig of AHCI and all of its "bloat"* As for the capacity I'm been thinking about 500GB range, that is typically 480-500-512. Can you recommend me an SSD that uses both M.2 slot and NVMe?

I have a few candidates: But first a few general questions. How do they perform like? How much faster are those drive than the SATA 6 GBP/s drives like 850PRO? PRICE: Do all of them support NVMe? Some drive I can fing available. I'd much prefer a 480GB to around 512. 256 not so much because I have one slot AFAIK and I can't RAID them.
1.
500GB Crucial MX200 CT500MX200SSD6 How is it performance-wise? How much faster is it than the SATA drives like 850PRO? PRICE: 650PLN. Does it support NVMe?

2.
Crucial 256GB 2,5'' SATA SSD M550 M.2 Price: 435

(I can pay somewhere around that provided it is much faster than both the mentioned at the beginning crucial 500GB


3. 240GB Dysk SSD Patriot Ignite 240GB M2 SATA 560/320MB/s (PI240GSM280SSDR)

Price: 450
4.

512GB Transcend TS512GMTS800 PRICE:900

Those I could find available an price comparison site. Can you reccomend me a good drive? I doesn't have to be from the list, I might find some other SSDs.

I listed prices in the local currency it is about 3.5USD + 23$ VAT which you lucky people don't pay. So you can have some rough idea about the prices.

 

[bradly1101]

As far as I know there is currently only one NVMe m.2 drive, the Samsung SM951, but it needs a homemade custom cooling solution. There's an Intel SSD (750) in a 2.5" version that connects via an m.2 to mini-SAS connector available in the Asus Hyper-Kit. But I'm sure there are more to come.

 

[zir_blazer]

Want to go big? Intel SSD 750 PCIe 400 GB. That thing is the real monster king of this generation. M.2 SSDs are faster than SATA-3 on benchmarks, but not during sustained usage. The SM951 in particular likes to throttle.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Since the Samsung overheats. I think its safe to say none at the moment.

Personally I will just go with the M.2 MX200 500GB for my Skylake MiniITX build. Its not something I will notice if its SATA6 or AHCI/NVME PCie x4.

 

[Hellhammer]

The SM951 overheating issue isn't relevant to typical client workloads. Throttling only occurs after minutes of sustained IO, which are rare.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9396/samsung-sm951-nvme-256gb-pcie-ssd-review/2

 

[Insert_Nickname]

The SM951 overheating issue isn't relevant to typical client workloads. Throttling only occurs after minutes of sustained IO, which are rare.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9396/samsung-sm951-nvme-256gb-pcie-ssd-review/2

Precisely. I find this quote particularly telling:

The same goes for sequential write where throttling is evident and even more significant compared to the random write workload. Without the heatsink the SM951 can sustain peak throughput for about two minutes, which may not sound long but at 1.5GB/s that would translate to 180GB of data written and obviously such massive transfers are very rare.

Now, if you write 180GB of data regularly, you should properly look at another drive in the first place.

Besides, if it really bothers you, just use an adaptor with an included heat sink. Like this one:

http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/M2P4A.html

 

[zir_blazer]

The SM951 overheating issue isn't relevant to typical client workloads. Throttling only occurs after minutes of sustained IO, which are rare.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9396/samsung-sm951-nvme-256gb-pcie-ssd-review/2

Basically, you are telling me than these M.2 SSDs are faster for benchmarking and burst usage, but if you were going for sustained IO, you will hit with the throttling spikes. I find that a horrible tradeoff. Besides, M.2 SSDs controllers seems to be running at rather scary temperatures. How would that impact in their longevity?

Regardless, I don't think that anyone that will pay nearly twice the U$D/GB for a faster SSD (200 U$D Samsung 850 EVO 500 GB (0,40 U$D/GB) vs 370 U$D Samsung SM951 AHCI 512 GB (0,72 U$D/GB), not sure on price for the NVMe but should be around the same) will NOT use it for sustained IO. A client use case where you would have sustained IO is if you're doing video recording in lowly or no compressed, high resolution and high FPS, akin to what was used for the nVidia FCAT. I can think on some game recording scenarios where you would want sustained IO, and maybe your recording applications sucks to do encoding (Either by CPU or GPU) at the same time that you record, or the possible quality isn't good enough, and its better to just get raw recording then encode it later. These write spikes means losing frames during recording. I wouldn't accept something as inconsistent as that for such price tag.

On the other hand, I can go for the 390 U$D Intel 750 PCIe 400 GB (0,98 U$D/GB). It is around 35% more expensive in U$D/GB, but that's the real deal. It is NVMe so you don't have to specifically look for it, potentially works with older Motherboards if you hack NVMe support to them, it has heatsink so you don't need a custom one, it is PCIe so you don't need a M.2-to-PCIe adapter, performs around the same as the NVMe Samsung but with a much better sustained IO. Unless you need a M.2 because you have that slot but no room for a PCIe card, I would spend a bit more and go for that beast. M.2 SSDs aren't convincing enough due to the cons.

 

[Dasa2]

the 951 is mostly only available to oem
i guess the idea is they install it in a system with a heasink for it like intle nuc have thermal tape that connects it to the base plate

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Basically, you are telling me than these M.2 SSDs are faster for benchmarking and burst usage, but if you were going for sustained IO, you will hit with the throttling spikes. I find that a horrible tradeoff. Besides, M.2 SSDs controllers seems to be running at rather scary temperatures. How would that impact in their longevity?

Regardless, I don't think that anyone that will pay nearly twice the U$D/GB for a faster SSD (200 U$D Samsung 850 EVO 500 GB (0,40 U$D/GB) vs 370 U$D Samsung SM951 AHCI 512 GB (0,72 U$D/GB), not sure on price for the NVMe but should be around the same) will NOT use it for sustained IO. A client use case where you would have sustained IO is if you're doing video recording in lowly or no compressed, high resolution and high FPS, akin to what was used for the nVidia FCAT. I can think on some game recording scenarios where you would want sustained IO, and maybe your recording applications sucks to do encoding (Either by CPU or GPU) at the same time that you record, or the possible quality isn't good enough, and its better to just get raw recording then encode it later. These write spikes means losing frames during recording. I wouldn't accept something as inconsistent as that for such price tag.

This is first and foremost a CLIENT drive. What are you expecting?

As for your video recording scenario, unless you're recording uncompressed 4K video (even then, we're only talking, what, a GB/s?), I simply do not see how this could possibly trigger throttling. We're not talking hundreds of gigabyte per second after all with regular 1080p/2160p h.264. The SM951 will handle that no problem, without breaking a sweat.

Worst case, you loose ~3.5% performance when throttling. Keep in mind the thing is rated 300.000 IOPS reading and 83-100.000 writing. I simply can not think of a single client-type workload even hitting half that...

I actually think Samsung's engineers have thought this through.

Thermal issue? (i.e. hot running) The SM951 is designed for laptops, and, let me tell you, will encounter far worse thermal conditions then an average well ventilated ATX case running in one of those.

On the other hand, I can go for the 390 U$D Intel 750 PCIe 400 GB (0,98 U$D/GB). It is around 35% more expensive in U$D/GB, but that's the real deal. It is NVMe so you don't have to specifically look for it, potentially works with older Motherboards if you hack NVMe support to them, it has heatsink so you don't need a custom one, it is PCIe so you don't need a M.2-to-PCIe adapter, performs around the same as the NVMe Samsung but with a much better sustained IO. Unless you need a M.2 because you have that slot but no room for a PCIe card, I would spend a bit more and go for that beast. M.2 SSDs aren't convincing enough due to the cons.

There are exactly three LGA-1150 board models that can take advantage of an M.2 PCIe x4 SSD like the SM951 without using an adaptor anyway, so I fail to see the problem. If you have to get an adaptor anyway, then why not get one with a heat sink while you're at it? I'd even wager a standard front/side mounted 120/140mm fan would take complete care of the "problem", when the M.2 SSD is mounted in an adaptor.

Now, if you can afford an X99 system, you can afford an adaptor or a 750 (or perhaps more properly a P3700).... :whiste:

 

[bradly1101]

Honestly if I had a board with an m.2 slot, the only thing I'd stick in there is the SAS adapter (which shouldn't get hot) for the Intel 750 which has built-in heatsinks. But all this is probably moot since they're out of the OP's price range.

My theory as to why there are not more, larger and faster m.2 drives is that the manufacturers haven't figured out this thermal problem. Once figured out they should proliferate and get cheaper.

Someone mentioned that they would be worse in a laptop, but it would be easy to engineer a heatsink inside that mates up with the drive, which can't be done on a PC motherboard. m.2 seems not to be ready yet.

I have the PCIe version of the 400GB Intel 750 as a program/game drive on an X79 board, and NVMe is all it's cracked up to be.

 

[zir_blazer]

This is first and foremost a CLIENT drive. What are you expecting?

Consistent performance. The fact that its CLIENT doesn't means that I just want high peak numbers to showcase in benchmarks and nothing else, but also something reliable and predictable, specially if I'm going to pay a premium for it. The SM951 looks like it was merely intended for low loads and ocassionals burst.

Worst case, you loose ~3.5% performance when throttling. Keep in mind the thing is rated 300.000 IOPS reading and 83-100.000 writing. I simply can not think of a single client-type workload even hitting half that...

You don't get the real problem with throttling. If throttling was done in a consistent way (Lower performance, but still lineal), there would be no issues. Instead, you get a recurrent "spike" where your write speed falls to 75 MB p/s. If you're doing anything that requires sustained performance (Which is what would get it to throttle), like video recording, you will absolutely miss frames when you have those spikes. Apply all what you know about FCAT and frame variance/frame times, but to SSDs. That's the issue here.
A good question would be: What is the sustained performance than the SM951 should be able to provide without reaching throttling conditions?

Thermal issue? (i.e. hot running) The SM951 is designed for laptops, and, let me tell you, will encounter far worse thermal conditions then an average well ventilated ATX case running in one of those.

The whole M.2 form factor was designed for Laptops as a replacement for mSATA, why its getting adoption on Desktop is beyond my understanding. SATA Express/U.2 were intended to do that.
Actually, I believe than on a Laptop, a M.2 SSD would do better than on a Desktop, since even if the conditions are worse, if you are arguing that no client user would need sustained IO, there are even less chances that someone actually stresses it on a Laptop the way that a power user could on a Desktop. So if you think than the SM951 can easily do "client" workloads, on mobile it would be even easier.
I suppose that the peak performance for low time periods may be useful for things like quick Hibernation, but even then, the performance is way overkill for a Laptop on the first place. What "client" workloads on a Laptop needs that much anyways?

There are exactly three LGA-1150 board models that can take advantage of an M.2 PCIe x4 SSD like the SM951 without using an adaptor anyway, so I fail to see the problem. If you have to get an adaptor anyway, then why not get one with a heat sink while you're at it? I'd even wager a standard front/side mounted 120/140mm fan would take complete care of the "problem", when the M.2 SSD is mounted in an adaptor.

Why would I purchase a M.2 SSD and related accesories when I can go for a true PCIe SSD that already has these out of the box and copes with sustained usage or whatever a power user would want to throw at it?
I can't think of a single reason why I would pick the SM951 over the Intel 750 for Desktop, except its slighty better U$D/GB ratio.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I'm going to have to rearrange your post a bit to answer, hope you don't mind... 🙂

Consistent performance. The fact that its CLIENT doesn't means that I just want high peak numbers to showcase in benchmarks and nothing else, but also something reliable and predictable, specially if I'm going to pay a premium for it. The SM951 looks like it was merely intended for low loads and ocassionals burst.

The whole M.2 form factor was designed for Laptops as a replacement for mSATA, why its getting adoption on Desktop is beyond my understanding. SATA Express/U.2 were intended to do that.
Actually, I believe than on a Laptop, a M.2 SSD would do better than on a Desktop, since even if the conditions are worse, if you are arguing that no client user would need sustained IO, there are even less chances that someone actually stresses it on a Laptop the way that a power user could on a Desktop. So if you think than the SM951 can easily do "client" workloads, on mobile it would be even easier.
I suppose that the peak performance for low time periods may be useful for things like quick Hibernation, but even then, the performance is way overkill for a Laptop on the first place. What "client" workloads on a Laptop needs that much anyways?

That is pretty circular argumentation. Which always leads back to: the SM951 is primarily a mobile drive. The usage case is exactly what you're describing. Short bursts of activity. To save power in mobile applications (the hurry-up-and-get-to-sleep philosophy).

The drive was never intended to go in desktops. Hence sustained performance properly wasn't a top priority, because the drive was never intended to be used like that. You can view the phenomenal performance as more of a happy coincidence of the design rather then the point.

M.2 is on the desktop is another coincidence, because the alternatives (SATA Express where are you... 😉) weren't ready. But it has its uses. ITX boards in cramped cases come to mind.

Why would I purchase a M.2 SSD and related accesories when I can go for a true PCIe SSD that already has these out of the box and copes with sustained usage or whatever a power user would want to throw at it?
I can't think of a single reason why I would pick the SM951 over the Intel 750 for Desktop, except its slighty better U$D/GB ratio.
You don't get the real problem with throttling. If throttling was done in a consistent way (Lower performance, but still lineal), there would be no issues. Instead, you get a recurrent "spike" where your write speed falls to 75 MB p/s. If you're doing anything that requires sustained performance (Which is what would get it to throttle), like video recording, you will absolutely miss frames when you have those spikes. Apply all what you know about FCAT and frame variance/frame times, but to SSDs. That's the issue here.
A good question would be: What is the sustained performance than the SM951 should be able to provide without reaching throttling conditions?

Did I miss something here? Performance is lower but seems fairly consistent.

Now for serious work I'd take a 750 too. For the power-loss protection alone. For real money making serious work I'd take a P3700, because computer trouble can cost more then the drive. For my own home system, I'd properly go with a 256GB (NVMe) SM951. Only problem is my current board can't boot from either version, so I had to settle for the Kingston HyperX instead... 😛

 

[Sabrewings]

I'm not 100% sure it is compatible with you application, but I love my Kingston Predator HyperX 480GB. Might be worth looking into. Look up some reviews.

 

[zir_blazer]

Did I miss something here? Performance is lower but seems fairly consistent.

Wrong graph. The one where it shows throttling issues and inconsistent performance is on sequencial writes, which I already posted and matchs better the video recording workload that I said (Ocassionally drops from 1500 MB p/s to 75 MB p/s):

Besides, if you pay attention, you will notice that in your graph, it last one minute around 40000-45000 IOPS then drastically drops to 5000-10000, even at that point is at least rather consistent. But keep in mind that random loads are limited by AHCI. Its possible that if you do that test on the NVMe version of the SM951, you get even worse throttling since you could put more random IOPS stress on it.

Now for serious work I'd take a 750 too. For the power-loss protection alone. For real money making serious work I'd take a P3700, because computer trouble can cost more then the drive. For my own home system, I'd properly go with a 256GB (NVMe) SM951. Only problem is my current board can't boot from either version, so I had to settle for the Kingston HyperX instead... 😛

The Intel P3700 cost 3 times the U$D/GB of the Intel 750, which is already expensive enough. Its extra features are meant for Enterprise and too costly to justify in a Desktop, unless you are Ritchie Rich.
I still don't get why someone would pick a SM951 over the Intel 750 (256 GB may be the excepcion, merely because unit price). I don't accept these shortcomings on such an expensive SSD, it has cons that your typical Desktop SSD does not, and the Intel 750 is just plain better on all areas that matters and more solid.

Booting from NVMe may not be too hard. You need to figure out if you can integrate a NVMe Driver to your Firmware binary, or you could so something like formatting a USB Flash Drive in GPT with an EFI System Partition, place a NVMe Driver there, and tell UEFI to load it. Not having the main OS on the fastest drive is missing its potential.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Wrong graph. The one where it shows throttling issues and inconsistent performance is on sequencial writes, which I already posted and matchs better the video recording workload that I said (Ocassionally drops from 1500 MB p/s to 75 MB p/s):

Wow that one is just plain outright disasterous. They really need some kind of balancing instead of close to full stop.

 

[Hellhammer]

Besides, if you pay attention, you will notice that in your graph, it last one minute around 40000-45000 IOPS then drastically drops to 5000-10000, even at that point is at least rather consistent.

That's not throttling, all SSDs exhibit lower steady-state random write performance. Even the P3700 is no exception.

You are making it sound like throttling is a major issue in the SM951. I've proven it's not for typical client workloads. Your video recording may be an exception, but honestly it's a very specific use scenario and you can't judge the whole drive based on that.

 

[ShintaiDK]

http://www.legitreviews.com/samsung-sm951-512gb-m-2-pcie-ssd-review_161689/3

Thats just bad design.

 

[Lepton87]

So it seems like nothing short of Intel SSD 750 is worth buying, I'll consider that. I bought 2 Titans that were useless not long after so I can buy a fast SSD which will surely last me longer. There's one problem, I already have two graphics cards and I want to add a third so I won't have enough space and PCI-E bandwidth for all that.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Wrong graph. The one where it shows throttling issues and inconsistent performance is on sequencial writes, which I already posted and matchs better the video recording workload that I said (Ocassionally drops from 1500 MB p/s to 75 MB p/s):

Yes. But again, you're running the drive flat-out for ~110s before throttling kicks in. Which still equates to 165GB of total writes. I still maintain there are very few client workloads writing that amount of data in ~110s... :hmm:

If you happen to use one, then the SM951 isn't for you. I fail to see the problem.

Also see below*

Besides, if you pay attention, you will notice that in your graph, it last one minute around 40000-45000 IOPS then drastically drops to 5000-10000, even at that point is at least rather consistent. But keep in mind that random loads are limited by AHCI. Its possible that if you do that test on the NVMe version of the SM951, you get even worse throttling since you could put more random IOPS stress on it.

That graph shoving steady state performance is common to all SSD. Its simply how they work.

The Intel P3700 cost 3 times the U$D/GB of the Intel 750, which is already expensive enough. Its extra features are meant for Enterprise and too costly to justify in a Desktop, unless you are Ritchie Rich.

The P3700 expensive? Depends on what you're planning to do with it... 😉

*Also keep in mind the 750 has a 70GB/day write limit. This doesn't mean a lot in practice, but Intel could refuse warranty if you exceed that.

Ironically, if we continue from above, you've just written over twice that to the SM951 in under two minutes, and you are complaining the thing throttles...? I find that a bit funny*... 😀

(*of course, my sense of humour has been a bit off lately... :\)

I still don't get why someone would pick a SM951 over the Intel 750 (256 GB may be the excepcion, merely because unit price). I don't accept these shortcomings on such an expensive SSD, it has cons that your typical Desktop SSD does not, and the Intel 750 is just plain better on all areas that matters and more solid.

The SM951 still isn't intended as a desktop drive.

I can give you a good reason why someone might choose the SM951 however. Its available in smaller capacities (128/256GB), and those two SKUs are cheaper then the 750.

Booting from NVMe may not be too hard. You need to figure out if you can integrate a NVMe Driver to your Firmware binary, or you could so something like formatting a USB Flash Drive in GPT with an EFI System Partition, place a NVMe Driver there, and tell UEFI to load it. Not having the main OS on the fastest drive is missing its potential.

Its not as if I hadn't looked at alternatives. But in the end I decided the plug-and-play capability was more important then performance. Its not like the HyperX is slow either, it performs a bit above the older XP941. Which is quite enough for what I intend to do with it.

Wow that one is just plain outright disasterous. They really need some kind of balancing instead of close to full stop.

Agreed. No arguments there.

 

[larryccf]

While my comprehension of these SSDs is rudimentary (on a good day) this might help, in terms of real world experiences running a samsung xp941 SSD as an OS drive, and rendering videos (largest file is usually in the 34-39GB range). Being the first gen PCIe SSD, there are no thermal limits on it.

i've rendering times drop considerably, to generally 30-40% of the time required running a SATA SSD. I saw temps on my xp941 hit 98C (i believe one reviewer recorded 114C for a max temp) but i'm using a non-contact thermometer to read temps. The portion of the ssd that gets hot is the controller, an approx 3/4X3/4" area where you see "ICC and circle 20" on the label in the pix below.

when i moved my xp941 to an addonics PCIe > M.2 expansion card, i added a 40mm fan mounted on a short 40mm wide pc of 2" thin walled aluminum angle. My max temp, when rendering videos using Handbrake, are 78C - it idles in the mid 40C range, and sees 60-66C when running medium duty programs.

The xp941's specs or speeds are about 20-30% slower than the SM951 - i'm seeing 1180 MB/s read, 840 MB/s write. Even so, opening/loading heavy programs like adobe photoshop CS3, quickbooks or UPS worldship, which all took 35-45 seconds loading from a sata ssd, are now in the 10-15 second range - for me that's a godsend.

The only reason i went with the xp941 was price - when the sm951 came out, some sites dropped their price to $182 for the 256 GB version, and i was curious to play with one.

As someone above suggested the intel 750 NVMe ssd is the only "mature" unit out right now, but there are a number of SSDs coming out this fall running the new micron controller. My only complaint re the intel 750 is it's not offered in a 256 GB size - i like to clone my OS drive weekly, and that would mean buying a 512GB ssd to clone to.

Considering the SM951 is more efficient, the lower power factor combined with active cooling like my fan, should make it a viable option, imho.

 

[R0H1T]

As someone above suggested the intel 750 NVMe ssd is the only "mature" unit out right now, but there are a number of SSDs coming out this fall running the new micron controller. My only complaint re the intel 750 is it's not offered in a 256 GB size - i like to clone my OS drive weekly, and that would mean buying a 512GB ssd to clone to.

Considering the SM951 is more efficient, the lower power factor combined with active cooling like my fan, should make it a viable option, imho.

How would you define mature in this instance? I personally think M.2 aren't for the desktop crowd, not at this moment at least besides I feel the excess heat from an overclocked system (CPU, GPU, mobo et al) can also be a major hindrance inside many cases. Maybe AT can do an in depth test into this, measuring differences between an open bench & closed case, also taking into account overclocking in both scenarios.

 

[bradly1101]

So it seems like nothing short of Intel SSD 750 is worth buying, I'll consider that. I bought 2 Titans that were useless not long after so I can buy a fast SSD which will surely last me longer. There's one problem, I already have two graphics cards and I want to add a third so I won't have enough space and PCI-E bandwidth for all that.

The Intel 750 comes in a 2.5" version that connects via the adapter I mentioned above with the same performance as the PCIe version as long as the m.2 slot is 4x.

 

[larryccf]

How would you define mature in this instance? I personally think M.2 aren't for the desktop crowd, not at this moment at least besides I feel the excess heat from an overclocked system (CPU, GPU, mobo et al) can also be a major hindrance inside many cases. Maybe AT can do an in depth test into this, measuring differences between an open bench & closed case, also taking into account overclocking in both scenarios.

"How would you define mature in this instance?"

Basically by the fact that it was actually intended for use in a desktop by the end user - the other PCIe SSDs (M.2 format or otherwise) available are OEM products meant for use by tablet/notebook mfgrs.

The Intel 750 has it's own cooling design built in with heat sinks and a specified requirement for air flow, a power storage system to protect data in the event of a power loss and boot drivers included.

"Mature" may not have been the best choice of verbage - maybe "retail market" PCIe SSD would have been better phrasing

PS - after reading the thread about the slow boot time for the intel 750, maybe "mature" was more than just not the optimal choice of descriptions

 

[xyvyx]

This helped me quite a bit:



The air circulation in this tiny SG13 case sucks, but I guess having just a bit more thermal mass & surface area was enough. I was seeing temps over 180F before while playing Battlefield (vid card is close too, so might be related to that), but w/ this heatsink, I haven't seen over 140F. I need to do some more logging, though.

Temps monitored via. CPUID's HWMonitor.

 

[larryccf]

i've been thinking about using some MEK or Acetone with a single edge razor to try to slowly peel the label back from the controller - i didn't want to cut it as that definitely would give the vendor to void the warranty.

That plastic label is doing nothing but insulating the controller and keeping heat from transferring out

180F = 82C, which is only 2 degrees above the sm951's thermal limit, so while it was being throttled, it wasn't frying itself that badly. The drop in temp approximates the result i saw from the 40mm fan - it'd be interesting to see what adding a fan to that setup of yours would do, in terms of additional drop in temps