Lulz, it appears most acceleration events in Toyotas were because of retardation

[StageLeft]

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/11/autos/toyota_investigation/index.htm

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration looked into 58 crashes of Toyota cars from earlier this year...In 35 of the cases, data recorders showed the brakes were never used. In 14 other cases, the brakes were only partially applied and, in one instance, both the gas and brake pedals were applied together.

So at least in the 58 studied:

60% never applied brakes
24% only partially applied brakes
2% did brakes and gas

This covers 86%. Of the remaining 14% could have been car error or could have not been but hard to know since more than half of that 14% had no data recording events.

This has been great for people who see through the FUD, the availability heuristic, and have scored generationally sweet deals on new Toyotas as the company has put in great incentives to try and recapture lost market. BTW, those deals are still available this month

 

[Gibson486]

It's no secret really...lots of Toyota owners can't drive. My g/f included.

 

[fleshconsumed]

These reports always bug me as a cop out. If the cause is due to computer programming malfunction where computer mistakenly thinks that a person applied gas, of course it is going to record that the person pushed the gas pedal. That doesn't mean a person driving the car actually did use gas pedal, that's why it is "unintended" acceleration. So I'm skeptical about all the reports saying those unintended acceleration incidents happened because of a user fault. Just because computer thought a gas pedal was pressed and recorded it, doesn't mean the person actually did press it.

The only relevant news piece is that in half the cases brakes were never applied. You'd think a person would be stomping on brakes to stop the car...

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

These reports always bug me as a cop out. If the cause is due to computer programming malfunction where computer mistakenly thinks that a person applied gas, of course it is going to record that the person pushed the gas pedal. That doesn't mean a person driving the car actually did use gas pedal, that's why it is "unintended" acceleration. So I'm skeptical about all the reports saying those unintended acceleration incidents happened because of a user fault. Just because computer thought a gas pedal was pressed and recorded it, doesn't mean the person actually did press it.

The only relevant news piece is that in half the cases brakes were never applied. You'd think a person would be stomping on brakes to stop the car...

LEt's not forget, all the data the NHTSA looked at has been filtered through Toyota first. If you remember when this all started Toyota said there was only one computer in the US with the software to connect and download the data from the recorders in the cars.

Toyota would have nothing to gain by fixing the numbers or cherry picking data. :\

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Unexpected acceleration due to pressing the wrong pedal is surprisingly common.

Watch for brake lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XWgZAK3hqM

 

[StageLeft]

The only relevant news piece is that in half the cases brakes were never applied. You'd think a person would be stomping on brakes to stop the car...

How is that relevant if it relies on recording of a computer that you don't trust?

Toyota would have nothing to gain by fixing the numbers or cherry picking data.

They'd have a lot to gain. Do you think they did that? Think it through. How many people would have to be in on this conspiracy of altering date before giving it to the highway institute? And let's also remember I am sure that is a huge freaking felony and pound me in the ass jail time if caught.

 

[StageLeft]

Unexpected acceleration due to pressing the wrong pedal is surprisingly common.

Watch for brake lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XWgZAK3hqM

Apparently it's reported each year for each brand of vehicle. Normally assumed driver error but Toyota was beyond normal error, so it seems likely some issues were legitimately caused by the vehicles, but I am thinking only a minority of them.

LMFAO anyway you can hear them totally floor the gas after it crashes.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Some yes, I do doubt the majority though. Toyota's major black eye IMO is the rusting truck frames.

 

[compman25]

Some yes, I do doubt the majority though. Toyota's major black eye IMO is the rusting truck frames.

Oh what a feeling, toyota!

 

[StageLeft]

Some yes, I do doubt the majority though. Toyota's major black eye IMO is the rusting truck frames.

That's not rust, those trucks are just in the middle of transforming.

 

[desy]

Those are dump trucks
Its a $2500 option

 

[StageLeft]

Those are dump trucks
Its a $2500 option

It must be, because those are too new to rust out, right?

 

[PricklyPete]

Anybody interested in a Tacoma I've been to lazy to put up for sale?

 

[StageLeft]

Anybody interested in a Tacoma I've been to lazy to put up for sale?

Only if it folds up for shipping.

 

[PricklyPete]

Only if it folds up for shipping.

Give me some salt water and a plastic putty knife with payment and I'll have it boxed up and ready to send to NY by lunch time.

 

[kornphlake]

So at least in the 58 studied:

60% never applied brakes
24% only partially applied brakes
2% did brakes and gas

Let me pull the accelerator from under your foot at a moment of my own choosing and we'll see how many people can react quickly enough to step on the brake before causing an accident. I've said it over and over again, in a stressful situation most people won't react rationally. The statistics prove 60% don't even step on the brakes. It's not a matter of how you would react sitting behind your keyboard, it's a matter of how people who were put in a life threatening situation reacted.

 

[LTC8K6]

There's no way the computer is going to think anyone stepped on the gas if they didn't actually step on the gas. We not only know what position the throttle pedal was in, we also know what position the throttle itself was in. So we would know from the data if the throttle was disagreeing with the throttle pedal.

There's still no evidence of any stuck throttle problems with the Toyotas save the few incidents where an optional floor mat was apparently the culprit, correct?

No one has found any throttle pedals sticking on their own except Toyota themselves, and those pedal assemblies weren't actually sticking open, they just had more friction than they were supposed to have, and were replaced out of an abundance of caution.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...534435744.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEADNewsCollection

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash, people familiar with the findings said.

The early results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyotas and Lexuses surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes.

But the findings—part of a broad, ongoing federal investigation into Toyota's recalls—don't exonerate the car maker from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: "sticky" accelerator pedals that don't return to idle and floor mats that can trap accelerators to the floor.

The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. Toyota hasn't been involved in interpreting the data.

The initial findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi 5000 sedans.

NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas and Lexuses, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

However, NHTSA has been able to verify that only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position.

Daniel Smith, NHTSA's associate administrator for enforcement, told a panel of the National Academy of Sciences last month that the agency's sudden-acceleration probe had yet to find any car defects beyond those identified by the company: pedals entrapped by floor mats, and accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle.

"In spite of our investigations, we have not actually been able yet to find a defect" in electronic throttle-control systems, Mr. Smith told the scientific panel, which is looking into potential causes of sudden acceleration.

"We're bound and determined that if it exists, we're going to find it," he added. "But as yet, we haven't found it."

Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal," she said.

Police in Sheboygan Falls, Wis., investigated and believe driver error was to blame, Chief Steven Riffel said Tuesday. He said surveillance video showed that the brake lights didn't illuminate until after the crash. But Mr. Riffel said that determination is preliminary and that his agency has turned over the investigation to NHTSA.

Based on the black box data, NHTSA investigators found that the brake was not engaged and the throttle was wide open, according to a person familiar with the matter.

 

[StageLeft]

Let me pull the accelerator from under your foot at a moment of my own choosing and we'll see how many people can react quickly enough to step on the brake before causing an accident. I've said it over and over again, in a stressful situation most people won't react rationally. The statistics prove 60% don't even step on the brakes. It's not a matter of how you would react sitting behind your keyboard, it's a matter of how people who were put in a life threatening situation reacted.

Um...wut.

You're working on the assumption that the car spontaneously accelerated. I'm working on the assumption that the car accelerated because they floored it.

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash, people familiar with the findings said.

Ding ding, winnar.

 

[Malak]

There's no way the computer is going to think anyone stepped on the gas if they didn't actually step on the gas.

When the brake sensor was going out in my car, it would randomly brake. Even when there was no key in the ignition. To think computers can't malfunction is just silly.

 

[LTC8K6]

When the brake sensor was going out in my car, it would randomly brake. Even when there was no key in the ignition. To think computers can't malfunction is just silly.

I don't think computers can't malfunction.

I'm certain that when they do, we can tell that they did.

 

[AstroManLuca]

The computers CAN malfunction. That covers the case where the gas and brake were engaged at once - car suffered from unintended acceleration (computer thinks the gas is engaged), driver attempted to hit the brakes.

Those 35 times when the gas was engaged and the brake was not point to two possible conclusions:

1. There was a sudden unintended acceleration event and the driver did not step on the brakes for whatever reason (panic, crashed before they could react, etc.)
2. The driver pressed on the accelerator pedal, I guess inadvertently. In which case they're just an idiot.

I am confused by the crashes where the brakes were partially applied. Might these be cases where the driver just didn't press hard enough? How partially were the brakes being used anyway?

 

[LTC8K6]

They know that the drivers were pressing the gas pedal. The gas pedal position is known. If the pedal were at idle, and the throttle was wide open, then we'd know it was not driver error.

 

[Possessed Freak]

I take it there is no way the pedal sensor can fault and assume that the pedal is floored... thus engaging full throttle?

 

[StageLeft]

Honestly, the details--though quite relevant--here are impossible to know without input from Toyota. They could indicate based on their understanding of the systems what is an isn't realistically plausible, from pedals down to partially down to throttle, etc. I'm pretty comfortable personally saying most of these drivers were at fault and simply hit the gas instead of the brake, thus _starting_ not insufficiently responding to the incident.