Low-power workstations? Zacate, LLano, or Core i3-2100?

[VirtualLarry]

I have a friend, that has quite a few computers at his house. He also has a fairly high electric bill (3MW/mo).

I have been trying to help him reduce his power bill, by purchasing some Kill-A-Watt meters for him to use, and by helping him install some power-efficient computers.

He lets me keep a computer of my own at his place to use when I come over, and previously, that was a P4 2.4Ghz rig, that had about 81W idle, and 130W load. I replaced it with a G31/E5200 @ 3.0 rig, and now it's drawing 80W at full load (running SeventeenorBust 24/7 for me, and serving as a fileserver for the house at the same time).

So that was definately a win, but I know I can do better.

One of the people in the house, had a P3 1Ghz machine, and I upgraded him to an Athlon64 X2 4800+ S939 rig I had lying around, and Win 7, and now he can watch YouTube and Hulu full-screen and full-speed. That's about the only strenuous thing he does with his PC.

Another person in the house, I gave a PC cobbled together out of parts, P4 2.8Ghz, 1GB RAM, XP, for his workshop in the garage.

So even though I reduced the power usage for my computer, I may have increased the power usage of these other two people's computers. So overall, it may have been a wash.

So I'm looking into possibly building some really, really low-power workstations. Unsure whether or not mini-ITX would be worth it, as the cases for those are more expensive, and space isn't at such a premium as power is.

So really, both rigs just need to handle web browsing, one needs to handle online movie watching, and both need to be low-power.

I'm wondering whether Zacate is the answer here, or whether or not a Core i3-2100 + mobo (I live near a Microcenter) is better?

Zacate boards range from $100 to $150, and Microcenter has run deals on Core i3-2100 + mobo for $100. Worst case, have to purchase the CPU for $100, and another mobo for $60. Add $40 for 4GB of DDR3.

So let's say my price limit for CPU+mobo+RAM is around $200, possibly stretchable to $250 if I had to.

No need for overclocking.

Purchase decision - in the next few months.

Edit: leaning towards zacate builds.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157228
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811144255
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231308
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147133

 

[mfenn]

Looking at the big picture, somebody with that high of a power bill isn't going to see a significant decrease by swapping a few PCs around. They'd get better ROI by tackling the real power hogs.

Regarding the CPU choice, I'd go with the i3 since you seem to be able to get them for about the same price. The Zacate will certainly draw less power, but it's a drop in the ocean (see above) compared to the increased compute power you get by going i3.

 

[Zap]

Don't get that Apevia case. Do you need an optical drive? If so, get an Antec ISK 300/310-65. If not, get an Antec ISK 100. More cost, but less noise and Antec actually thought out the cooling. Then, get a Zacate board. For pure internet including web based video, Zacate will do everything. No need for 8GB RAM and no need for dual channel (Zacate is single channel). Those Antec cases use 2.5" drives, so get some cheap SSDs next time they go on sale.

Next few months, eh? Maybe by then Llano will be out. Think Zacate, but with better CPU and GPU performance. Zacate is 18W TDP. Llano will be 35-45W with 3x-5x the GPU power depending on the model, plus the CPU will have a turbo mode like the Intel second generation Core series, and will Turbo up to 2.3-2.5GHz depending on the CPU, compared to 1.6GHz with Zacate.

The other thing is whatever platform you end up getting them, make sure to enable S3 sleep in BIOS and allow Windows to put the computer to sleep after no more than 30 minutes. S3 sleep will keep power usage at around 1W versus the 20-30W of normal idling, plus it will wake up within 2-3 seconds.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I guess that's that. I had a friend order the ASRock Zacate board for $110, the Rosewill miniITX case w/150W PSU for $50, and the 8GB Gskill 1.5v CAS7 1066 RAM for $65 ($15 off promo code).

So with any luck, it will be here by next friday. I bought 8GB of RAM, but that is of course overkill for the Zacate rig, so I plan on using only one 4GB stick (someone said Zacate is single-channel?), and saving the other 4GB, perhaps for another future Zacate build.

The other thing is whatever platform you end up getting them, make sure to enable S3 sleep in BIOS and allow Windows to put the computer to sleep after no more than 30 minutes. S3 sleep will keep power usage at around 1W versus the 20-30W of normal idling, plus it will wake up within 2-3 seconds.

That's a good point, something to think about I guess.

Edit: I didn't go with the Antec case, because I wanted a case that would take a standard DVD drive and HD, because I already have those, and didn't want to purchase new ones.
Plus, for $50, the price was right on that rosewill. Only one one-egg review, apparently, the PSU on that person's unit went poof. Suppose that's a risk that I'm willing to take.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I built one Zacate rig with an Asrock E350M1 mobo, turned out pretty nice.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2169456&highlight=zacate

The power consumption numbers, with a Kill-A-Watt, however, aren't so great, at least not compared to a different Zacate build that someone else did.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2144118&highlight=zacate

So the question is, if I build another one of these, with the same mobo, but a different case/PSU, can I improve the efficiency of the PSU/rig such that I get better KAW numbers?

Give me some case suggestions. However, case MUST have room for one 3.5" HD, and one 5.25" DVD drive. (Although, if it doesn't have a DVD drive at all, that could be doable too.)

That was one of the reasons why I used that Rosewill mini-ITX case, because it had spaces for standard-sized HDs and DVD drives, which made my build a little cheaper.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811147133

 

[Gigantopithecus]

What are your power consumption numbers? If they don't approach mine, there are a few reasons:
1. Your PSU is likely no more than 70-75% efficient whereas my external power adapter is 90-95% efficient.
2. Does your PSU have a fan? Mine doesn't.
3. Does that case have a 7V or 12V fan? Mine's a 5V fan.
4. 7200rpm desktop drives use more juice than 5400rpm laptop drives.
5. 5.25" optical drive uses more juice than no optical drive.

The biggest culprit is the PSU. You could replace it with a 60W PicoPSU and external brick.

 

[mfenn]

The biggest culprit is the PSU. You could replace it with a 60W PicoPSU and external brick.

I agree 100%. 40W/150W is 27% load, which is going to be very low on the efficiency curve for a cheapie PSU. The difference between 60% efficient and 80% efficient is the difference between 40W at the wall and 30W at the wall.

 

[piasabird]

If he still has any old tube monitors replace them with a flatscreen. If they have a lot of printers, set up some printer sharing, or keep them turned off. I think it is the monitors that use the most energy. After that it is using a gaming video card. Integrated video can save a substantial amount of energy in locations where it makes sense. Not everyone is a gamer. If you are doing a hand off of old gaming computer to non gamers, then maybe swapping out the Video with a cheap video card might be a good idea. Using an efficient power supply is a good idea.

In a house some of the most offending power users are:

Air conditioning
Furnace Fan
Freezer/s
Refrigerator
Leaky Windows
Insulation in attic
Roof Vents
Also might try cleaning the fins on the Air conditioning unit outside. Just a little dirt on them can run up your Air Conditioning bill. Investing in a yearly maintenance plan can give you a payback over time when it comes to air conditioning and heating.

Big Screen TV: There may be a big difference in the type of TV also like LCD vs others.

 

[VirtualLarry]

What are your power consumption numbers? If they don't approach mine, there are a few reasons:
1. Your PSU is likely no more than 70-75% efficient whereas my external power adapter is 90-95% efficient.
2. Does your PSU have a fan? Mine doesn't.
3. Does that case have a 7V or 12V fan? Mine's a 5V fan.
4. 7200rpm desktop drives use more juice than 5400rpm laptop drives.
5. 5.25" optical drive uses more juice than no optical drive.

The biggest culprit is the PSU. You could replace it with a 60W PicoPSU and external brick.

I don't think that there is a fan in the PSU, but it clearly cannot be as efficient as yours.

You're right about 4 and 5, that makes sense. And it has an 80mm 12v RPM-sensing fan that plugs into a mobo header.

So given 4 and 5, perhaps the efficiency of the PSU isn't as bad as I think?

I did the numbers, and it would take two years to pay off the difference in the cost of electricity, to pay for the difference in price between that Rosewill case, and the Antec ISK-100. (30W versus 40W, on 24/7.) So it might not even be worth worrying about.

Edit: My numbers were wrong, it looks like it would take 3.8 years to catch up on costs, if I sprung for the more expensive Antec case, rather than the Rosewill. So scratch this idea, I'll just pick up another Rosewill case, and live with the slightly-higher power draw.

 

[Zap]

I've used fans that have measured several watts on their own, for one single fan!

The power difference from a desktop 7200RPM drive to a notebook 5400RPM drive can easily be 5W or more.

Regarding power costs versus hardware costs, is the building actively cooled? If so, then double the electricity costs, because whatever the computer uses in electricity, you'll need to use in electricity for the air conditioner to cool the place. Probably not a 1:1 ratio, but nonetheless the power usage exists.

 

[wirednuts]

if you really are just going to use the machine to watch videos and browse the net, then i think zacate is the way to go as well. if there is ANY chance you might want to rip some dvd's or do some gaming, then go i3.

the i3 is an amazing chip. it can idle with the best of them, barely sipping power... but when needed at a flash it ramps up to a gaming-level cpu. i still use my launch-day i3 cpu to play all the modern games at 1080p

 

[biostud]

Looking at the big picture, somebody with that high of a power bill isn't going to see a significant decrease by swapping a few PCs around. They'd get better ROI by tackling the real power hogs.

exactly

3 computers running 24/7 @ 130W uses about 280 kW/mo
3 computers running 24/7 @ 80W uses about 173 kW/mo

saving 107 kW/mo out of 3MW (3-4&#37

 

[VirtualLarry]

if you really are just going to use the machine to watch videos and browse the net, then i think zacate is the way to go as well. if there is ANY chance you might want to rip some dvd's or do some gaming, then go i3.

the i3 is an amazing chip. it can idle with the best of them, barely sipping power... but when needed at a flash it ramps up to a gaming-level cpu. i still use my launch-day i3 cpu to play all the modern games at 1080p

I'm debating Zacate or i3, for my own personal low-power rig at my apt. I'm going to have to borrow the power meter (KAW), and test out my desktop rig. I have a feeling that its power draw is higher than I think it is.

I was all set to build another Zacate rig, but then I came across this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157238

That mini-ITX mobo, combined with a 35W SB, might make a potent combo. And yes, I probably will be ripping a few DVDs to my storage server soon, so that might be too much for a Zacate.

For 35W chips, there is the i3-2100T, and then the G620T. The G620T is only 2.2GHz, but the question I have is, does it have HyperThreading? I can't seem to find a good answer. If it doesn't, then it would be too crippled for me, and I would just spring for the i3.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116394
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116401

 

[Gigantopithecus]

The G620T does not have Hyper-Threading.

You might also want to look into this ASUS board. H61 vs H67 is essentially meaningless unless you plan to OC the on-die GPU. It's also a bit cheaper, and has a longer warranty.

That mini-ITX mobo, combined with a 35W SB, might make a potent combo.

I wholeheartedly agree - which is why I featured a very similar build in my builder's guide last month.

 

[Morg.]

Zacate is perfect for that, largely powerful enough, and orders of magnitude more efficient than i3 for what you're going to make it do.

Besides its like 80bucks if you take an asrock - dunno if you can get my kind of prices on newegg tho but --

 

[VirtualLarry]

Zacate is perfect for that, largely powerful enough, and orders of magnitude more efficient than i3 for what you're going to make it do.

Besides its like 80bucks if you take an asrock - dunno if you can get my kind of prices on newegg tho but --

My only question is, how bad is the performance of DVDShrink with the E-350. That's why I was considering the i3. I would much prefer to buy AMD though. (I'm definitely a fan of Zacate.)

 

[Morg.]

The e350 is not a bad processor, it's a tiny wee bit slow, but for old stuff like DVD ripping, it doesn't matter.. IF you were H264 encoding bluerays you might start worrying...
BUT THEN !

Like my NAS, your box will prolly be on at all times, so you might not worry so much about processing time - and although I do not know for sure, DVD ripping *should* be available in a GPU-accelerated flavor today.

 

[dma0991]

If only someone had developed a GPU accelerated software to rip DVDs that could potentially make the Zacate a better choice than the Core i3 2100T.

Even if the Zacate would take 1.5-2X the time it would take for the Core i3 2100T to do the job I don't think it would make a difference to me. Its not like I'm going to sit and stare at something that I know would take at least a few minutes to complete considering that the limiting factor here is the slower read from the DVD.

I would rather be doing something else while waiting rather than counting the seconds till completion. :biggrin:

 

[Morg.]

There will be GPu-accelerated bluray rip for sure.. dvdrip is dead so I don't know.

Zacate is already a better choice, dvd-ripping is not a challenge for either cpu, zacate uses much less power, has a real gpu inside (good for the future that), etc.

What people need to understand is that the compromise of the core i3 is a failure, where the CPU eats a lot of power to produce some dual-thread power and the GPU is such a failrue it cannot produce anything in terms of multithreaded performance.

On the other hand you have the Zacate, that manages pretty much 5x better multithreaded (i.e. the future for everything that can be so), while being clearly worse in the dual-threaded segment (i.e. the past, like dvd-encoding, which is so much the past that even a zacate will do a fine job).

Also, somebody mentionned expensive prices for the zacate, for me the asrock base deal is @ 80 something bucks not 110.

 

[Zap]

For 35W chips, there is the i3-2100T, and then the G620T. The G620T is only 2.2GHz, but the question I have is, does it have HyperThreading?

As Gigantopithecus pointed out, it does not have HyperThreading. The Core i3 does.

If you have the budget and can find one, how about a Core i5 2390T? It is a 35W dual core with HyperThreading that can Turbo up to 3.5GHz!

Otherwise, unless you were wanting to use a super low wattage PSU (like 65W or something) then I would suggest just using the normal Core i3 2100 and not the 2100T. The reason is that in SPCR's testing (with a lot of load testing) the 2100 averaged only 5W more power draw than the 2100T. That difference will only drop if you aren't using it with heavy loads all the time (encoding, etc). On the performance side, yes the extra few hundred MHz may make a difference. In SPCR's conclusion they state:

The performance gap between the Core i3-2100 and i3-2100T is much wider, about 15%, as there are no crazy Turbo Boost speeds to help even the odds. However, the i3-2100T is still more than a match for AMD's dual core processors and slower Lynnfield models. With a typical workload, it consumes about 5W less than the i3-2100, but the difference at idle is too small to count. If you're going to build a system that's going to idle mostly, there's really no advantage.

What people need to understand is that the compromise of the core i3 is a failure, where the CPU eats a lot of power to produce some dual-thread power and the GPU is such a failrue it cannot produce anything in terms of multithreaded performance.

What? You're not making much sense here. The GPU of CPUs such as Zacate is required primarily due to the CPUs being so weak. However, the GPU can only accelerate certain things, so good luck with Netflix since Silverlight still doesn't support GPU acceleration.

What is even better than Core i3 (strong CPU with weak GPU) and Zacate (weak CPU with mediocre GPU) is if you pair a CPU stronger than Zacate with maybe even a bit more GPU power than Zacate. Whoops, I just described Llano. How did that happen? :whiste:

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, after reading some of the Llano benchmark preview threads in the CPU forum, I'm thinking of going with that. Not sure how much better the power consumption will be, compared to my 45nm Q9300, but if I can ditch the graphics card, so much the better.

Edit: SEXY!
http://news.softpedia.com/news/ASRock-s-A75M-ITX-AMD-Llano-Motherboard-Gets-Pictured-202870.shtml

 

[Blain]

Purchase decision - in the next few months.

Edit: leaning towards zacate builds.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157228
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811144255
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231308
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811147133

But your links lead back to NEWEGG!
Have you softened your stance on Newegg as a good vendor?

 

[Zap]

Edit: SEXY!
http://news.softpedia.com/news/ASRock-s-A75M-ITX-AMD-Llano-Motherboard-Gets-Pictured-202870.shtml

Very!

Now, it just has to come out, plus not have any show stopping bugs or recalls. Oh yeah, nice price and low power draw would be a major bonus. Out of all that, the biggest unknown would be power draw. Everything else is usually pretty routine, and AMD of course is usually price competitive as long as they don't have the upper hand in performance. Low power draw... has not been a strong suite of AMD processors until the recent Zacate. Let's hope Llano continues that trend.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I recently borrowed some KAW meters, and hooked them up to my desktop rig.

Q9300 @ 3.0, stock voltage, GTX460 1GB (715Mhz stock OC), and a KDS 26" LCD.

LCD: 59-63W
Idle at desktop: 96W
F@H GPU: 194W
OCCT PSU test: 353W (CPU overheated > 85C! GPU temp was like 83-84C)

I pay $0.15 per KWh.

I get 10K PPD in F@H on the GPU.

Over 400W combined for my computer (GPU+GPU) and LCD monitor. Ouch! And that's with a 45nm Intel CPU too.