Low Grade for Canadian Healthcare

[Martin]

Link for those haven't seen it yet.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/...02.whealthhh1102/BNStory/National/home

Originally posted by: Stunt
No I haven't received care from other countries, but unlike the rest of my country; I don't spout off about how great medicare is when the system is obviously fundamentally flawed. The fact of the matter is no country seems to actually like their healthcare system, and none are perfect...but I do have opinions on how to make it better.

I have two problems with what you say (as a whole).
1. Your language. Stuff like "fundamentally flawed" is the kind of apocalyptic sky-is-falling language best left for Layton or Bush. Fundamentally the Canadian system is no different from the other OECD ones you look to, where it does differ is a lot more mundane implementation details, like organization and delivery. Go ahead a reread the article, you'll see that the points they make are things like team-based care, tracking patients, access to IT etc. For example needing a central patient profile information system is not a fundamental flaw, its a project that needs to be implemented by a competent software company (hmm, perhaps I should go into this area )

2. The part of your solution where you call for competition between providers and insurers. That may sound excellent in theory, but practice has proved otherwise. These two are the hallmarks of the US system and look at where its got them - paying enourmous amounts of money for a system that at best average. Britain's NHS recently introduced competition between providers, and their system has improved, but at the same time, they've also thrown huge amounts of money at the NHS (so much so that the government is now running a large deficit). There is a place for private business in healthcare, certainly. You and me definitely agree on the high-end clinics part of it. But in general, private care must be a matter of policy, not principle. If it works for some particular area, use it, but rigid top-down principles will only get you bad results.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: Craig234
What are the differences between Canada and Germany? I thought I'd heard the same person praise Germany over Canada before.

One of the big differences (which also make it more complicated to compare) is that health care is responsibility of each province in Canada, although huge amounts of money are transfered from the federal government too. In some provinces everyone pays a monthly premium (low-income families pay less or not at all, like in BC, for example). In other provinces it's completely free (NS, for example). Stunt, how is it in ON?

This leads to some differences depending on where you live. Some medicines and procedures are covered in one province, but not in others, etc.

 

[JavaMomma]

I'm Canadian, I think our healthcare system sucks really really bad...
It is terrible, things need to change.

It takes forever to see a doctor/nurse at a hospital. My GF gets migraine headaches, some of them are really bad and she needs to go in for a shot (takes like 2 min. once she gets in) -- she ends up waiting in a brightly lite ER waiting room for 4hrs+ and half the time it goes away enough that we just leave without her even seeing anyone. Ohh, and she is a nurse and works at the same hospital... it is frustrating because she could pretty much give herself the shot she needs.

Plus, the doctors just don't care, they are so busy ... I had one doctor just tell me, "Well I don't think this isnt life threating" -- so bye. He was a specialist that took 3 months to get into see (refered by family doctor). I wish I could pay for some decent service -- its my life and I'm willing to pay whatever it takes to make sure I am in good health.

 

[JavaMomma]

Ohh, yeah Fornax just reminded me, although it isnt much, I also do pay $58/month (since I live in BC) not counting whatever % of tax $$$s that go into the system.

Stuff you have to pay for in Canada is good...
I got laser eye surgery, service was fantastic -- cost $3500 (included 6 eye checkups over a year) and it was the best money I spent...

My mom has had some elective surgery done, I picked her up after, again super good service...

 

[bobdelt]

we dont have enough medical schools...thats the only problem... lots of qualified people cant get into med school that should = less doctors = higher cost. Also, because there are so few medical schools the price is astronomical so most people dont even go into general practice but specialized surgery to pay for their ******.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: JavaMomma
I'm Canadian, I think our healthcare system sucks really really bad...
It is terrible, things need to change.

It takes forever to see a doctor/nurse at a hospital. My GF gets migraine headaches, some of them are really bad and she needs to go in for a shot (takes like 2 min. once she gets in) -- she ends up waiting in a brightly lite ER waiting room for 4hrs+ and half the time it goes away enough that we just leave without her even seeing anyone. Ohh, and she is a nurse and works at the same hospital... it is frustrating because she could pretty much give herself the shot she needs.

Plus, the doctors just don't care, they are so busy ... I had one doctor just tell me, "Well I don't think this isnt life threating" -- so bye. He was a specialist that took 3 months to get into see (refered by family doctor). I wish I could pay for some decent service -- its my life and I'm willing to pay whatever it takes to make sure I am in good health.

Thanks for a real example. This is what we have to avoid.

I think well of Thom Hartmann's positions, and he suggests that the system in Germany, which he used for a year, works well.

 

[StageLeft]

If I said the gov't should mandate that everyone is super-rich, they'd call me a fool, but people don't call others fools when they promote the idea of excellent healthcare for an entire populous. It's quite impossible. Healthcare in Canada sucks, IMO. In fact, the health care in the US is part of the reason we're still here. If I want to see a specialist about something, I want to see a specialist soon, not in 6 months. If the specialist thinks an MRI is good in diagnosing the problem, I want that MRI done soon, not next year. I've written on this in length before, but Canadians are highly influenced by the propoganda of their healthcare system, one in which seeing a specialist or having an expensive procedure involves vast waits. Down here in the US the waits are tiny fractions of what they are in Canada. Yeah, they're longer if you're poor and lack health insurance, but most people here don't lack it, and frankly I care more about me than some nebulous "lower income classes". Great healthcare, like having everyone rich, is not possible for every person because it involves high-cost resources that simply cannot be spread across an entire population. I live in a nice house and have a reliable car and can buy the things I want because I make decent money. One of the things I want is expedient health care access. In the US I can get it. In Canada I can't, unless I decide to fly to the US and pay out of pocket or hope I can get it in one of the miniscule number of private clinics in the country.

I won't upset any Canadians here by posting the typical wait times of procedures and times to see specialists because it's simply heart-breaking, but it's readily accessible on google. I will say that when I wanted to see an orthopoedic surgeon (on two separate occasions), the longest wait was 8 business days. When I wanted to see a sports physician the wait was 8 business days also. MRI? Less than an hour. Literally as soon as I could get from the sports doc's office to the imaging center. And these were for very minor problems. The waits to see these specialists in Canada, except in cases of a veritable emergency, are measured not in days or hours but in months. It's great if you're poor, sucks if you're not. ANd it's not like bums on the street here can't get any care anyway. Medicaid sees that they do get _some_.

I am glad that AMericans, as a whole, are honestly not that interested in universal healthcare. In fact, Anandtech is one of the few places I ever see talk of it. See, Republicans don't have it all wrong

 

[WhipperSnapper]

If you guys think health care is bad now here in the U.S. where we have a semi-socialist system in capitalist clothing, just wait until the U.S. becomes a third world country with a population of 450+ million.

 

[darincm]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
and frankly I care more about me than some nebulous "lower income classes".

I guess thats one of the differences between Canada & the US - I actually do care that some nebulous "lower income classes" receive the same access to health care that I do & I'm willing to pay a tax premium for it.

Is our system perfect? Not by a long shot, but I like the fact that we try not to leave anyone behind. If that ever changes, I'll be gone.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
If I said the gov't should mandate that everyone is super-rich, they'd call me a fool, but people don't call others fools when they promote the idea of excellent healthcare for an entire populous. It's quite impossible. Healthcare in Canada sucks, IMO. In fact, the health care in the US is part of the reason we're still here. If I want to see a specialist about something, I want to see a specialist soon, not in 6 months. If the specialist thinks an MRI is good in diagnosing the problem, I want that MRI done soon, not next year. I've written on this in length before, but Canadians are highly influenced by the propoganda of their healthcare system, one in which seeing a specialist or having an expensive procedure involves vast waits. Down here in the US the waits are tiny fractions of what they are in Canada. Yeah, they're longer if you're poor and lack health insurance, but most people here don't lack it, and frankly I care more about me than some nebulous "lower income classes". Great healthcare, like having everyone rich, is not possible for every person because it involves high-cost resources that simply cannot be spread across an entire population. I live in a nice house and have a reliable car and can buy the things I want because I make decent money. One of the things I want is expedient health care access. In the US I can get it. In Canada I can't, unless I decide to fly to the US and pay out of pocket or hope I can get it in one of the miniscule number of private clinics in the country.

I won't upset any Canadians here by posting the typical wait times of procedures and times to see specialists because it's simply heart-breaking, but it's readily accessible on google. I will say that when I wanted to see an orthopoedic surgeon (on two separate occasions), the longest wait was 8 business days. When I wanted to see a sports physician the wait was 8 business days also. MRI? Less than an hour. Literally as soon as I could get from the sports doc's office to the imaging center. And these were for very minor problems. The waits to see these specialists in Canada, except in cases of a veritable emergency, are measured not in days or hours but in months. It's great if you're poor, sucks if you're not. ANd it's not like bums on the street here can't get any care anyway. Medicaid sees that they do get _some_.

I am glad that AMericans, as a whole, are honestly not that interested in universal healthcare. In fact, Anandtech is one of the few places I ever see talk of it. See, Republicans don't have it all wrong

You must live in a large metropolis with a glut of specialists, or have some incredible medical plan that is accessible to 0.01% of us (like the Congress, for example -- I can tell you an interesting story sometime). Or you live in Neverland. When I needed a specialist (in Phoenix, AZ - not a small town), I was told that in my network the nearest EMERGENCY apointment was in 3 months, a regular one - in 6 months. I may go, if I choose, to a different doctor outside of the network, but that means essentially that I'll have to pay the whole thing out of my pocket. Keep in mind that I have a rather good (from talking to other people) insurance, entirely paid by my employer (but I have copays, etc). From talking to many people, it looks that my situation was the rule rather than the exception. Virtually every doctor I asked for an apointment told me to go to the emergency room. And then we wonder why billions of dollars are wasted.

There are some exceptions, for example a lot of surgery is scheduled much faster here than in Canada. Or if you are an employee of a large university with a hospital, a lot of stuff can be scheduled virtually instantly. But the average working Joe, if they have insurance at all, are no better in regards to wating lists, crowded emergency rooms, etc than Canadians. Sometime worse.

I am glad that AMericans, as a whole, are honestly not that interested in universal healthcare. In fact, Anandtech is one of the few places I ever see talk of it. See, Republicans don't have it all wrong

You realize, of course, that Americans, as a whole, believe that the rapture will occur in their lifetime. Or that Saddam was behind 9/11. It's a good illustration of the wonders of modern propaganda.