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Low Grade for Canadian Healthcare

Stunt

Stunt

Diamond Member
link

I'm not a huge fan of these studies, but I thought I'd post this one as this forum seems to think the world of the Canadian healthcare system and advocates universal healthcare for all people blindly.

I have long pointed out the flaws in the Canadian healthcare system (a very unpopular position to take here) and I have pointed out the benefits of some of the systems in Europe where private care plays a role, government is used to help negotiate lower drug prices and where the public isn't forced to pay for the rich to receive care they do not want.

Interesting read for those who want to see the Canadian system for what it is. Maybe think twice about pushing universal heathcare just for the sake of impractical bleeding heart idealism.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Topic Title: Low Grade for Canadian Healthcare
Topic Summary: U.S. ranks lower
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The bolded says it all right there.
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If you advocate widespread reform, why strive for a piss poor public system when you can push for a much better run UK system?
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
Topic Title: Low Grade for Canadian Healthcare
Topic Summary: U.S. ranks lower
Click to expand...
The bolded says it all right there.
Click to expand...
If you advocate widespread reform, why strive for a piss poor public system when you can push for a much better run UK system?
Click to expand...

Actually if you look at my U.S. No Health Care thread, Americans are going to India now for healthcare.

Heck of a way to get off this rock.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
US healthcare system is a disgrace. The fact that it's unsustainable is almost a good thing.
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But the sad part is it is finding ways to survive...they always find ways to stop the bleeding. Plus medical lobby is just so powerful in the US.

Alot of the piss poor care is perpetuated by doctors and hospitals themselves. There is still a lack of accountability in medical care....especially with private doctors offices.

I agree with Stunt that the 'best' system is a combo of private + government health care allowing them to compete to drive costs down.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
If you advocate widespread reform, why strive for a piss poor public system when you can push for a much better run UK system?
Click to expand...

You must be kidding me. I've experienced both, and the British NHS is abysmal. I've gotten better care in the Czech Republic. Unlike their American counterparts, the Czech doctors (and nurses) still haven't forgottent the art of diagnosis. As senseamp sais, our system is a disgrace.
 
Originally posted by: fornax
Originally posted by: Stunt
If you advocate widespread reform, why strive for a piss poor public system when you can push for a much better run UK system?
Click to expand...

You must be kidding me. I've experienced both, and the British NHS is abysmal. I've gotten better care in the Czech Republic. Unlike their American counterparts, the Czech doctors (and nurses) still haven't forgottent the art of diagnosis. As senseamp sais, our system is a disgrace.
Click to expand...

Has he been to the UK and experienced the care there?

Has he been to the U.S. and experienced the care here?

Probably NO on both yet he continues to spew what he feels is best.

God help us and the world.
 
Dave,

No I haven't received care from other countries, but unlike the rest of my country; I don't spout off about how great medicare is when the system is obviously fundamentally flawed. The fact of the matter is no country seems to actually like their healthcare system, and none are perfect...but I do have opinions on how to make it better.

At least I am throwing ideas out there; all you do is harp on ideas with no reasoning whatsoever.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Dave,

No I haven't received care from other countries, but unlike the rest of my country; I don't spout off about how great medicare is when the system is obviously fundamentally flawed. The fact of the matter is no country seems to actually like their healthcare system, and none are perfect...but I do have opinions on how to make it better.

At least I am throwing ideas out there; all you do is harp on ideas with no reasoning whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Apparently, you don't understand the US system, either. The underlying US healthcare system is fundamentally flawed. If it was 'fixed' Medicare would look A LOT better, so would Medicaid. As a system of healthcare for the elderly, Medicare is FAR better than virtually any commercial healthcare plan.

The great value of nationalized healthcare is that a society looks at it as 1) a right to basic healthcare and 2) an expensive right that must have limits . . . used rationally. Neither aspect exists in the US system (except for old people) so our system is horribly dysfunctional. Many go without healthcare in the concurrent context of widespread waste.

Canada, Australia, UK, Japan, France, and the Scandinavians are by no means perfect but the US system just plain sux. The only redeeming characteristic of US healthcare is that if you have money to burn (or somebody else is paying the bill) . . . we have the best healthcare services in the world.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Dave,

No I haven't received care from other countries, but unlike the rest of my country; I don't spout off about how great medicare is when the system is obviously fundamentally flawed. The fact of the matter is no country seems to actually like their healthcare system, and none are perfect...but I do have opinions on how to make it better.

At least I am throwing ideas out there; all you do is harp on ideas with no reasoning whatsoever.
Click to expand...

How exactly is it "fundamentally flawed"? It is different from the British system, where if you're an NHS doctor, you're an employee of the state. In Canada many doctors are private coroprations, and very, very few work directly for the state (military doctors, etc.) A lot of our American critics call it "socialized" system when it is nothing of the sort. With a few improvements along the lines adopted in France, Austria, etc it can become very good.

BTW, the survey that you posted is of very limited usefulness. First, it surveyed DOCTORS. While their opinion matters, obviously they're going to push their slant on things. And what about the "limited implementation of information technology"? The doctors are private entitities, they must ensure they're with the times. Do they expect the goverment to hold their hand and buy them computers?

One of the biggest problems facing Canada (and the US) is the huge demand but limited supply of doctors in general, and family doctors in particular. And frankly, I don't sympathize with them (the doctors, that is), because this is a problem entirely of their doing (well, and the gullible and corrupt politicians too). Greed can have some quite unexpected consequences.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: fornax
Originally posted by: Stunt
If you advocate widespread reform, why strive for a piss poor public system when you can push for a much better run UK system?
Click to expand...

You must be kidding me. I've experienced both, and the British NHS is abysmal. I've gotten better care in the Czech Republic. Unlike their American counterparts, the Czech doctors (and nurses) still haven't forgottent the art of diagnosis. As senseamp sais, our system is a disgrace.
Click to expand...

Has he been to the UK and experienced the care there?

Has he been to the U.S. and experienced the care here?

Probably NO on both yet he continues to spew what he feels is best.

God help us and the world.
Click to expand...

agreed
 
Wow...you guys are nuts.

BBD,
"Apparently, you don't understand the US system, either."
Where have I commented on the US system in this thread? All I have said is Canada's healthcare system got a low grade, and the US ranked lower.

fornax,
The fully public system is flawed as there is no competition, no choice in goods and services and government can't give the system enough money to satisfy the demands of the people.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...you guys are nuts.

BBD,
"Apparently, you don't understand the US system, either."
Where have I commented on the US system in this thread? All I have said is Canada's healthcare system got a low grade, and the US ranked lower.

fornax,
The fully public system is flawed as there is no competition, no choice in goods and services and government can't give the system enough money to satisfy the demands of the people.
Click to expand...

They may be as "nutty" as me but at least they are here in America commenting on America's issues.
 
I dont really see whats wrong with our system, and it doesnt seem I will as the OP's link is now dead (or was for me).
 
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I dont really see whats wrong with our system, and it doesnt seem I will as the OP's link is now dead (or was for me).
Click to expand...

You can find the same article in yesterday's Globe & Mail.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
fornax,
The fully public system is flawed as there is no competition, no choice in goods and services...
Click to expand...

You seem to imply that health care is a simple commodity like vegetables, for example. This is simply not true. There is quite a bit of competition as you can choose your doctors and bad doctors will continue to work only because of the dearth of practitioners. Compare this to the US where virtually everyone is stuck in a HMO or a PPO and has a very limited supply of doctors. If you go outside of your network, you're penalized severely.

...and government can't give the system enough money to satisfy the demands of the people.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone happy with the amount of money they get from the government. The wating lists are not so much the result of little money (I have experienced first-hand 6-month waiting lists here in the US), but the small number of doctors. There only so many patients an orthopaedic surgeon can see per day. But as I said, the doctors' own greed (in Canada as well as here) is the primary cause of the crisis today.
 
Canada's system is not gov't only in fact its about 22% private, something that gets missed all the time in these debates.

Tommy Doublas started medicare in Canada, I live in the province that started it all.
He never intended it to cover all the services it does now, a lot of it should be de-listed and paid for privately and saved for catostrophic or expensive treatments which is what he intended.

Right now there are lots of efficiencies that are being missed by having each province as the provider and not working nationally. The other great assumption, that care is equal across every province it isn't.
 
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...you guys are nuts.

BBD,
"Apparently, you don't understand the US system, either."
Where have I commented on the US system in this thread? All I have said is Canada's healthcare system got a low grade, and the US ranked lower.

fornax,
The fully public system is flawed as there is no competition, no choice in goods and services and government can't give the system enough money to satisfy the demands of the people.
Click to expand...


---
No I haven't received care from other countries, but unlike the rest of my country; I don't spout off about how great medicare is when the system is obviously fundamentally flawed.
---

My bad if I misunderstood you. You didn't capitalize Medicare but I assumed you meant Medicare. In fact, Medicare isn't a bad social health system except to the extent virtually all of the resources are backend instead of disease prevention and mitigation.

I actually agree with your comment about a system that FORBIDS private participation/competition. But from my POV you start from a socialized medicine perspective and then slot in the private pieces where it makes sense. The Wild Wild West version in the US often results in no competition, no choice, and rationing of care . . . but that doesn't mean you should block all private entitities from taking part.
 
What are the differences between Canada and Germany? I thought I'd heard the same person praise Germany over Canada before.
 
In a lot of european Countires you can have private clinics they are just paid for by the gov't, single pay, in Canada you can't have private clinics in competition with medicare but you can have private clinics for stuff the gov't doesn't pay for eg Eyes, Dental, Physio and so on.
 
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